WoWS "Basic Training" - anyone interested in helping put together a program?

[SureBridge]

(Edited to add Training PDF's for ease of retrieval)

Hello

One of the common complaints about WoWS is that people don't know how to play. It's a really technical game, and my understanding of the original way of learning the game was:

• Play a few low tier co-op games
• play some low-tier (protected) random games
• Get your first T5, venture out into the wild wild west
• Join a clan and have them help you get up to T8
• ...

This worked well when there were a lot of folks playing low tiers, and low tier random games. Right now the queue wait time for a T3 random (since I have played test ships at this tier) can be 10 minutes, putting you into a game with ~4 players and 20 bots. The second you hit T5, it's full of folks who are "seal clubbing" and "stat padding" which is a *terrible* place to learn how to play, and most clans don't accept folks who haven't played an arbitrary number of randoms (often 1,000) with decent (46%+) win rates. 

I'm not a unicum player, but having spent a LOT of time reading forum posts I have a pretty good idea about many of the underlying game mechanics, as well as how to use (and abuse) them. I've also had some success working with a few folks in putting together a training program, because talking about overmatch is not a "sticky" training approach - going into a training room and smashing in the faces of ships using the overmatch mechanic IS.

One of the things that I am hoping that DevStrike can do is help foster training, and be the "go to" place for people to learn how to play this game. That means that we need resources that effectively teach the game, and I think that it also means having members of the community willing to teach complete newbies (and get better ourselves).

@HogHammer @yss_turtleship and I put together the first two modules of a training program, just in time for the old forums to go "kablooie". I'll see about linking them here (we can't currently attach pdf files, but we can probably figure out a workaround being on the volunteer team). Here is the evolution (from the old forum - angling training file available near the bottom)

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/266955-clan-training-methodologies/

Unfortunately I can't find the thread that I created for this, and it may be in a subforum that no longer exists.

Detection_1_Final.pdf Basic_Angling_Training.pdf Basic_Damage_Training.pdf

Edited January 12 by SureBridge
Added training files

[Type_93]

As long as you don’t limit it to new players only. Plenty of players with thousands of battles could use this. 

[SureBridge]

I represent that remark!

Still waiting to catch you to help me learn to DD...

[Type_93]

Trust me man, I make bone headed plays on the regular. I haven’t had much time to play and I’m rusty as heck! 
 

The time I do get I would be willing to share what I’ve learned. 

[Andrewbassg]

2 hours ago, Type_93 said:

As long as you don’t limit it to new players only. Plenty of players with thousands of battles could use this. 

Lookin' in disbelief at the avatar, at the nick and at myself for not connecting the dots..."

 

[Asym]

I am not sure how any of us can help?  Since,  this is a game and doesn't follow any real life military conventions, how you play isn't based on military theories?

So, us veterans could add "our thoughts" but.......that's about it.

What am I missing because I know I am???

[Type_93]

57 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Lookin' in disbelief at the avatar, at the nick and at myself for not connecting the dots..."

 

It is a pretty great avatar. Answers the age old question. 

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, Type_93 said:

It is a pretty great avatar. Answers the age old question. 

 Like what torpedoes have in common with bears.  🙂

 

Actually its pretty simple. Torpedoes take a toll (aka taxes) and a bear doing what he must. Those  are all necessary, right?:) Tho it took a while.:)

 

That being said, I volunteer for doing ops training. Andrewbassg is my EU nick, Bandi73 is my NA nick. Ping me freely for divving up.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[SunkCostFallacy]

1 hour ago, Asym said:

I am not sure how any of us can help?  Since,  this is a game and doesn't follow any real life military conventions, how you play isn't based on military theories?

So, us veterans could add "our thoughts" but.......that's about it.

What am I missing because I know I am???

This is a topic that I haven't given a great deal of thought to, but off the top of my head:

A newbie going to youtube and looking for a video on "how to aim in wows" gets us a lot of hits ... and it may well be that not all of them are 'newbie friendly' ... so a training program might well assess those videos and find one (or two) which are still up to date and which are useful for a new player. The same would apply to videos on other topics which help people get better.

Discussion on the roles of the various classes of ship wouldn't go astray, I suspect.

Discussion on how various maps tend to play out, and why.

Why certain things that might look good to a newbie are generally a mistake because of terrain and likely red team behavior.

I'm sure that there are many others things that would be useful.

[Asym]

1 minute ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

This is a topic that I haven't given a great deal of thought to, but off the top of my head:

A newbie going to youtube and looking for a video on "how to aim in wows" gets us a lot of hits ... and it may well be that not all of them are 'newbie friendly' ... so a training program might well assess those videos and find one (or two) which are still up to date and which are useful for a new player. The same would apply to videos on other topics which help people get better.

Discussion on the roles of the various classes of ship wouldn't go astray, I suspect.

Discussion on how various maps tend to play out, and why.

Why certain things that might look good to a newbie are generally a mistake because of terrain and likely red team behavior.

I'm sure that there are many others things that would be useful.

If I said, study how "Burst on Target" is an aiming system, and it is and directly applies to this game since we are using ballistic reticles, I taught those principles at the Armor School decades ago....  But, how would we teach it today?  I am not a YT creator??

[SunkCostFallacy]

17 minutes ago, Asym said:

If I said, study how "Burst on Target" is an aiming system, and it is and directly applies to this game since we are using ballistic reticles, I taught those principles at the Armor School decades ago....  But, how would we teach it today?  I am not a YT creator??

Don't ask me ... I haven't been trained in that so I don't know how to train that.

But the question that comes to mind is how did you train it decades ago when there was no youtube? Did you have videos for the class room?

When I was in the Army the stuff that we taught in the class room was, where applicable and possible, followed up with an actual demonstration. That having been said there were many things which couldn't be, and we made do with static images to illustrate the point.

You, yourself, have managed to convey some pretty complex concepts in posts on the old forum simply using text. Before your posts I never associated the word 'friction' with gaming, for example. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by SunkCostFallacy
Typo

[Asym]

3 hours ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

Don't ask me ... I haven't been trained in that so I don't know how to train that.

But the question that comes to mind is how did you train it decades ago when there was no youtube? Did you have videos for the class room?

When I was in the Army the stuff that we taught in the class room was, where applicable and possible, followed up with an actual demonstration. That having been said there were many things which couldn't be, and we made do with static images to illustrate the point.

You, yourself, have managed to convey some pretty complex concepts in posts on the old forum simply using text. Before your posts I never associated the word 'friction' with gaming, for example. 

We took our tanks out and a white board and explained the M105D Telescope and the stadia lines in the reticle....  And, taught the concept that "aim" isn't where the target is, it's where the target will be (if moving).....  Lead, angle of deflection, speeds and environment were discussed at length.   And, when you miss and observe where the miss round actually lands, that position of the miss as it relates to the reticle lines is your next aiming point....  You "refer" the sight to the target using that "missed shot's landing point in the reticle" as you use that point as the center of mass aiming point for the follow up.....  It's called "precision gunnery" vis-a'-vis "Battle sight gunnery..."   Then, we used actual ammunition and when the gunner missed on moving tank tables, the TC would record where the miss was and explain why the second round missed or hit...  It's an art.  Then, when SIMNET came along or even COFT, we had complete computer SIMs to replay.....  Them "country boys" had the knack of Precision Gunnery and the kids that shot Flintlock rifles simply didn't a whole lot of discussion.   It was a matter of whom simply was better....  Battle sight gunnery is vastly simpler and yet, if the target's turret doesn't come off or the vehicle detonate, it's a lot harder to sense what went wrong.... 

Adaptive friction is part of asymmetrical system theory.........  Let's not go there.........sigh, I'm tired.

[Wolfswetpaws]

9 hours ago, SureBridge said:

WoWS "Basic Training" - anyone interested in helping put together a program?
Hello

<snipped for brevity>

I've created a number of educational images, over the years.
Here are some which are either DD relevant or are general-purpose in nature.  🙂 

      

      

  
 

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 hours ago, Asym said:

I am not sure how any of us can help?  Since,  this is a game and doesn't follow any real life military conventions, how you play isn't based on military theories?

So, us veterans could add "our thoughts" but.......that's about it.

What am I missing because I know I am???

In my opinion, military principles can be applied, especially if the team has rehearsed & trained together and has become a competent and cohesive "unit".

~Gaining "local superiority" in numbers and/or firepower, and using "focused fire" to be the in-game equivalent of "Crossing the T".
~Performing flanking maneuvers and targeting opponents with firepower from two directions, forcing a target to expose its broadside to at least one team-mate.
~Two CV's or a CV and a Hybrid ship or another team-mate coordinating a torpedo attack so that a "cross drop" situation is created.
~Using terrain to limit how many opponents can shoot at one's ship and/or to analyze which paths one's team should utilize when making a push.
~Recon of opponent's positions, by various means.
~Learning the difference between concealment (either by distance or via a smokescreen) and "cover" which can actually block incoming ordnance.
~ Other ideas that aren't on the tip of my tongue at the moment, but others may think of and contribute.

While many may lament that finding cooperation during a random battle is as rare as hen's teeth, I have had success in the past by communicating with my team-mates to convey my intentions of movement, give several seconds of notice of when I'm about to trigger a detection consumable to reveal an opponent, and to ask team-mates for assistance or comply with their requests of assistance in order to foster teamwork.

I'm sure there's plenty of lesson material available, if we are willing to work together.  🙂 

[Wolfswetpaws]

4 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

5 hours ago, Type_93 said:

It is a pretty great avatar. Answers the age old question. 

 Like what torpedoes have in common with bears.  🙂

https://www.devstrike.net/topic/638-dd-life/

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

51 minutes ago, Asym said:

We took our tanks out and a white board and explained the M105D Telescope and the stadia lines in the reticle....  And, taught the concept that "aim" isn't where the target is, it's where the target will be (if moving).....  Lead, angle of deflection, speeds and environment were discussed at length.   And, when you miss and observe where the miss round actually lands, that position of the miss as it relates to the reticle lines is your next aiming point....  You "refer" the sight to the target using that "missed shot's landing point in the reticle" as you use that point as the center of mass aiming point for the follow up.....  It's called "precision gunnery" vis-a'-vis "Battle sight gunnery..."   Then, we used actual ammunition and when the gunner missed on moving tank tables, the TC would record where the miss was and explain why the second round missed or hit...  It's an art.  Then, when SIMNET came along or even COFT, we had complete computer SIMs to replay.....  Them "country boys" had the knack of Precision Gunnery and the kids that shot Flintlock rifles simply didn't a whole lot of discussion.   It was a matter of whom simply was better....  Battle sight gunnery is vastly simpler and yet, if the target's turret doesn't come off or the vehicle detonate, it's a lot harder to sense what went wrong.... 

Adaptive friction is part of asymmetrical system theory.........  Let's not go there.........sigh, I'm tired.

Aim at where the target will-be, eh?  🙂 
  
 

[Andrewbassg]

6 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

https://www.devstrike.net/topic/638-dd-life/

 

Oh I know 🙂 I mean I know who he is. That was the  point about the whole  thing 🙂 ....

[iDuckman]

I've been interested for quite some time to integrate a tutorial program into the Wiki.  Besides the obvious question of, "What newbie would look at it?" a curriculum eludes me.  Plus, there are "visual learners" opposed to having to read anything.

I will follow this thread.

 

[SunkCostFallacy]

2 hours ago, Asym said:

We took our tanks out and a white board and explained the M105D Telescope and the stadia lines in the reticle....  And, taught the concept that "aim" isn't where the target is, it's where the target will be (if moving).....  Lead, angle of deflection, speeds and environment were discussed at length. 

Ok - all of that can be done in a class room. Granted, not as effectively, but effectively enough.

The same way I was trained, and then trained the next generation, in demolitions when I was in the Army ... several hours in the classroom teaching the basics interspersed with whatever images we could lay our hands on and illustrations we managed to get from the Doctrine Branch and dummy versions of the various things that went boom. With the exception of the dummies ... all of that is doable via the web.

Of course, as you pointed out, then you had to go out and watch someone qualified actually do it ... and then you did it with someone qualified watching you do it in case you were one of those soldiers who can't find their backside without a map and a compass.

But given that we're talking about a computer game, we don't really need to go to those lengths. The newbies won't suffer too much if they mess up

And before that ... in the basic grunt training that all soldiers got in the Australian Army (back in the day, I have no idea what they are teaching now), there were lectures on things like patrolling and what to do when someone screamed "Ambush Left" or "Contact Front" ... complete with an explanation that hiding behind a 1 inch wide sapling really doesn't help with incoming bits of steel jacketed lead. 

Then you'd go out and practice ... and you'd hide behind a 1 inch sapling

I should note that the Australian Army always was, and I have no doubt still is, a big fan of class room training because the politicians never budgeted enough for the more expensive, but much more effective, hands on kind of training ... short sighted <expletive deleted> that they are.

All of which is a long winded way of saying that yes, you can't teach everything through text and videos, but for a video game you can teach everything necessary to get a very good start.

 

[Verytis]

0. UI Settings. (Why does even this section even exist)

1. Aiming and leading targets.

2. Spotting, concealment, smokes and smoke firing penalty.

3. Armour and angling. Shell types. AP/SAP ricochet vs overmatch.

4. General evasive maneuvers, against shells, torpedoes and aircraft. O and P key.

5. Flanking and cover usage. Torpedo usage.

6. Consumables management.

7. Captain builds and ship upgrades.

 

Other:

• Map control
• Targeting priorities
• Radio location
• DD and SS screening.
• Concealment and engagement initiatives.
• Picking engagements.
• AA Escort and ship formations.
• AP shell arming thresholds
• Shell flight arcs and shell reading.
• Modding
• Specific ship weaknesses, strengths and exploiting them.

 

If you asked me on any of these I'd be able to give answers. Asking me to teach things in the correct order to a complete newbie is a different matter though. Some of these would also really benefit from good diagrams that I'm both too suck and lazy to draw.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Verytis

[Asym]

7 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I'm sure there's plenty of lesson material available, if we are willing to work together.  🙂 

I wrote a long response and deleted it....  It would be nice to "work together" but, that isn't the game's cultural or revenue imperatives...

Working together is always a good idea......it's a shame the game itself isn't designed that way......

[HogHammer]

There are, effectively, two areas to training.  (1) Training (basic) for those new to the game and (2) training for those who desire to improve their game (along the lines of advanced/more technical training ).

Both areas are a work in progress here at DevStrike.

 

[HogHammer]

@Wolfswetpawsthere is, in fact, much information/lesson material available for those who seek it.  Pulling it together in one easily accessible location is one of our goals, and secondly, making sure it is up to date.

@Asymworking together is key.  Before the old forum shut down, several clans with various skills got together to do as much in the area of training. We held two sessions (written and live lessons), but the closure of the old forums somewhat put the brakes on it.  The same group is still working together to get these lessons incorporated into the new forum, DevStrike.

[SunkCostFallacy]

32 minutes ago, Asym said:

I wrote a long response and deleted it....  It would be nice to "work together" but, that isn't the game's cultural or revenue imperatives...

Working together is always a good idea......it's a shame the game itself isn't designed that way......

Mate ... I play COOP exclusively, and as you know the meta in COOP is the diametric opposite of cooperation ... it's every man for himself in the feeding frenzy.

Yet I can see the value in training for the newbies, and for those who want to get better.

Just because the game doesn't have a lot of cooperation going on, even in Randoms from what I gather, doesn't mean that the players can't cooperate on projects. Hell ... we're posting on one such project right now, courtesy of a group of players who got together and cooperated to make something that WG don't provide.

Another example is the wiki.

Don't let WG's attitude and management style (or should that be mis-management style ) sour your perspective on what the players can achieve if they try.

[Wolfswetpaws]

41 minutes ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

Don't let WG's attitude and management style (or should that be mis-management style ) sour your perspective on what the players can achieve if they try.

This.  ^^^^