Napkin Analysis 0.13.1 - Pan-Asia

[torino2dc]

Looking at the long list of ships to cover for the 0.13.1 balance changes, I am getting a sudden and overpowering sympathy for the mountain climber standing at the base of a cliff. Like these rock-ascenders I too am looking for the least stressful path to get started, which is why I am going to begin with the Pan-Asian ships. The main reason for this is because I haven't yet canvassed enough of my CV-abusing clanmates for their opinions on the eight flat-tops that will be getting nerfs, and not being a carrier player myself, I don't want to rush out an opinion that lacks substance. So we go for some of the lower hanging fruit. There's only three of them, how hard could it be?

Before we get going, readers may want to check out the meta-analysis for the 0.13.1 balance changes that I wrote a week ago -- it will help as an introductory overview of all the upcoming buffs and nerfs as well as contrasting them against the Russian version of the game. Like before, each new article will be 'featured' for a bit and then go to live in Torino's Napkin Emporium permanently. As always, I hope you enjoy.

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Links

Overview - Japan - United States - Russia - Great Britain - France - Italy - Pan Asia - Pan Europe & Spain 

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Dalian (T9)

Changes: Main Battery reload time reduced 5.2 to 4.9s

In update 0.12.10, Wargaming buffed all of the tech-tree Pan-Asian super-light cruisers (CLAAs), giving them more range, better shell arcs, and faster reload across the board. Conspicuously missing from the list was the Tier 9 premium Dalian, which was faring barely any better than her free-to-play counterparts. In the hope of lifting her out of the bottom quintiles of T9 cruiser performance, she will be receiving a ~6% reload buff in 0.13.1. 

Before we begin discussing whether and how this buff will be the answer to the ship's woes, we should refresh ourselves on the differences between the Dalian and her Tier 9 tech-tree cousin, the Sejong. At a distance they both appear to be fragile smoke spammers with lots of torps, but on closer inspection the differences become quite pronounced.  

Spoiler

To summarize the differences: 

• Survivability: Not only does the Sejong have more HP to begin with, she is also blessed with a 32mm upper-belt that allows dexterous captains to bounce the occasional large caliber AP shell. The Dalian takes over the hull of the T8 Harbin -- clad all-over in 16mm armor -- which is extremely vulnerable to 229mm AP overmatch. As discussed with the Austin buffs in 0.12.10, super-light cruisers have a particularly tricky mirror matchup with the cruisers they force the matchmaker to give the enemy team. While the Sejong's upper belt armor can be situationally useful in this regard, the Dalian's thin skin remains a massive liability.
• Concealment: Dalian has excellent cruiser concealment at 8.9km fully specced. This allows her to stalk targets and change positions in a way that would be prohibitive for cruisers with clunkier detection. In particular, it helps her get close to where DDs might be playing around, all the better to smack them with her Russian rail-guns. The Sejong has usable detection at 9.7km max, but in practice it is mostly useful for out-spotting and evading larger cruisers and battleships. 
• Gunpower: When it comes to setting easy-to-hit targets on fire, the Sejong is clearly the superior ship. Even with the reload buff, Dalian struggles to overcome the fact she is missing two barrels, has a slower reload, and has an inferior base fire chance. On the other hand, if the task is to hit highly maneuverable targets, the Dalian's excellent shell velocity and lower air drag will be far more useful than the Sejong's lofty Atlanta-esque arcs. 
• Torpedoes: Against large cumbersome targets, the Sejong's torpedo suite is in a class of its own. Sixteen torpedoes on deck plus another sixteen ready at the push of a funny-button is simply ludicrous. Not only are the fish plentiful, they have good reach, a great speed/spotting ratio, and they pack a solid punch. The Dalian's torps are a mixed bag: while inferior in most aspects they have the virtue of being standard torpedoes, meaning that they can hit destroyers.  
• Anti-Air: The Sejong has the beefier suite with a separate Defensive-AA button to further increase her plane-chewing abilities. In general, she can count on being very low on CVs' strike list. The Dalian, by contrast, has middling AA which is made more mediocre by the absence of Defensive Fire. In practice, most carriers can bully her if they're okay with chucking away a plane or three in the process.   
• Consumables: Due to the Dalian's +1 base consumables (heal and smoke), her captain build can more easily get away with skipping Superintendent. That leaves 3pts. that can go towards useful skills such as Survivability Expert, Heavy HE, Adrenalin Rush, or Torp Reload + Torp Speed. On the other hand, the Sejong has two dedicated funny buttons (TRB and DefAA) that hard-counter pushing BBs and airplanes respectively.  

Matchups

In terms of matchups, the Sejong has very obvious strengths: fantastic firepower against BBs and large cruisers, a best-in-tier torpedo suite against pushing capital ships, and fantastic anti-air deterrence capabilities. On the other hand, anything with vision-control and smoke disruption tools -- i.e. submarines, destroyers, and many cruisers -- will present massive problems.

The Dalian inherits the same weakness to ships that can dominate vision and disrupt smokes, but without the obvious strengths in compensation. The anti-BB farming is noticeably worse due to lacking range on both guns and torps, with the reduced fire-chance making perma-fires a trickier proposition. Without DefAA, the anti-air suite is adequate for self-defense against T8s but struggles against T10 and T11 carriers.

In theory, the Dalian should have the better matchup against DDs due her flat shell arcs, excellent concealment, and standard torpedoes. In practice, however, she has no tools to find a DD that doesn't want to be found. This is particularly tragic given that she originally had a hydro that was removed during testing,^x as well as improved acceleration values that would have helped with torpedo dodging.    

Balancing: WoWS vs. MK

The good news is that both Wargaming and Lesta agree that the Dalian needs help. They already buffed her reload from 5.5s -> 5.2s back when the development pipeline was still unified in 0.12.0. The Russian developer moved next in 0.12.10, opting to buff the range from 13.5km -> 14.1km¹ and reduce the torpedo reload from 90s -> 85s. In 0.13.1 the western version of the Dalian will evolve in a different direction by adding another reload buff from 5.2s -> 4.9s, though we've still got some way to go before she regains the 4.5s reload she had in testing. 

Achieving Role Clarity

As I have hopefully demonstrated during the matchup discussion, neither of these two buffing approaches will fix what ails the Dalian. The initial idea of branching a premium Pan-Asian CLAA away from the anti-BB and anti-CV role towards more of a DD hunter was an interesting one, but it was not pursued to its conclusion. For the Dalian to finally arrive at a happy place, the anti-DD capabilities need to be fleshed out into an obvious core competence. There are a couple interesting ways that this could be done, including but not limited to: 

• Short-range Radar: If the Dalian were to receive a 7.5km radar she would be incentivized to play close support, but would have to be very careful in how she positions herself. High risk/reward for experienced captains.   
• Short-duration Radar: A safer option would be the 10 second 9km Gdansk radar on a short cooldown. This radar would allow for ~2 salvoes, enough to reset a cap but not much more. 
• Long-Range Hydro: The Pan-Asian premium DDs have an interesting 5.5km hydro that could be given to Dalian. This would allow her to make plays using the 600m gap between max hydro (5.5km) and smoke fire penalty (4.9km). Very high risk/reward for experienced captains.   
• Elite concealment: Dalian's current max concealment value of 8.9km is excellent, but given the lack of other obvious strengths, it is not good enough to carry the entire ship concept. One semi-radical idea would be to lean in to best-in-tier detection and supercharge it: how about a CLAA with 7.9km max detect? In the absence of other DD-hunting consumables, I would argue that this wouldn't even be that unbalanced.² Sub 10km base detect would also have the nice side-effects of facilitating open-water torpedo play and taking pressure off the captain/module build.³

Conclusion

The Dalian is a ship without a clear role. Her ostensible strengths are not strong enough to make for a compelling balance with her weaknesses. Incrementally buffing the reload is not going to solve this problem. 

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Sun Yat-Sen (T9)

Changes: Main Battery AP shells damage increased from 13,000 to 14,500                                            

The Sun Yat-Sen has had an interesting development history. She started off life as fairly straightforward conversion of the Tier 9 Soviet tech-tree battleship Sovetsky Soyuz with 3x2 457mm main guns instead of the standard 3x3 406mm. After the first rounds of testing, these new guns were re-worked: they gained battlecruiser dispersion and 1.9 sigma in exchange for a bit of maximum range. That obviously was too much of a good thing, as WG then hammered her with a nerf of 88,100hp -> 80,900hp and a reduction of main battery AP damage from 14,500 -> 13,000. After a year on the server, Wargaming seems to have concluded that the latter nerf was an over-correction.^x

Looking at the broad server-statistics, there is a case to be made for helping the Sun Yat-Sen. Among the 38 Tier 9 battleships, she currently ranks 26th for Win Rate, 27th for Average Frags, 31st for Damage, and 31st for Kill/Death ratio.⁴ Among the top 10% of players, the results are virtually the same, suggesting that the ship struggles no matter how talented the captain at the helm. 

Setting Expectations

I made a summary⁵ of the major differences between the Sun Yat-Sen and the Sovetsky Soyuz, but I don't doing an exhaustive comparison is the right approach. I think it is more productive to talk about expectations vs. reality. Like with many premiums that are based on the hull of an established tech-tree ship, folks will go in thinking that the play-style will be similar. Unfortunately for the Sun Yat-Sen, such an assumption would run counter to the strengths of her toolkit: 

Expectation: Sun Yat-Sen is a front-line battleship like the Soyuz.

Reality: Sun Yat-Sen's gunnery is optimized for longer ranges, due to her battlecruiser dispersion, good sigma, and low shell drag. Soyuz's dispersion formula rewards middle-to-close range shots.

Expectation: Sun Yat-Sen is strongest in bow-in positions like the Soyuz.

Reality: Even with good gun stats, Sun Yat-Sen's four front guns aren't reliable enough on their own. Players who haven't much touched the Russian BBs since release will quickly learn that their go-to bow-in positions are ripe for submarine predation.

Expectation: Sun Yat-Sen is strongest in island positions like the Soyuz.

Reality: Sun Yat-Sen's advantages lie mostly in open water, where she can use her excellent kiting angles to keep all six barrels hot. Her DefAA also works better when it is not blocked by a rock, unlike Soyuz's fighter plane, which is a bigger asset among islands.

Expectation: Sun Yat-Sen is tanky like the Soyuz.

Reality: Sun Yat-Sen is a long-term damage tanker, due to her slower (but unlimited) DCP and the extra base repair party. Soyuz is a short-term damage tanker, due to the Fast DCP and higher base HP.  

Players can thus be forgiven for struggling with the Sun Yat-Sen. They think they are getting a Pan-Asian take of the classic Russian BB play-style, while in reality the ship is best suited for environs that are quite different.   

Big guns go boom?

Does the proposed balance change fix any of these misinterpretations? Not really, though one might argue that higher AP alpha makes sitting bow-in slightly more rewarding in terms of damage. Instead the patch addresses another imbalance of perception: the expectation that Sun Yat-Sen's big guns do big damage vs. the reality that they had the same AP alpha as most 406mm AP. This is a good thing: players have an intuitive sense of how things in game will work, and they are right to be disappointed when a 457mm shell doesn't slap the way they think it ought to.

Furthermore, the buff opens up some interesting possibilities in the captain build: e.g. the very tempting synergy with the re-worked Super-Heavy AP skill, which would bump the buffed AP alpha even further from 14,500 -> 15,587. The real die-hards will try to add the new Furious which -- in combination with Adrenalin Rush -- can very quickly get the gun cycle time below the 20s threshold. Not many opposing cruisers will be happy dodging 457mm shells delivered on an Alaska reload timer. For the veteran battleship players, there is an intriguing risk-reward to be had with these upgraded guns.     

Spoiler

Chart of all 406mm+ Tier 9 Battleships in 0.13.0, in descending order of AP alpha damage:

I admit to being surprised when I first saw how low down the Sun Yat-Sen is on this list.

Chart courtesy of the WoWS Shipbuilder.

Conclusion

From the beginning, the Sun Yat-Sen has struggled against the expectations set by the Russian BB with whom she shares a hull. The patch will help her guns chunk the way they should, which will raise her skill ceiling. However, I would only expect to see her performance climb substantially for the savviest of players who understand the Sun Yat-Sen as a complete package and can push her to the limit. 

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Kunming (T11)

Change: base detectability range reduced: 7.8km -> 7.4km.
All other detectability parameters adjusted accordingly.

Fun fact: did you know that "kun-ming" is Mandarin for "grave error?" 

It isn't, but I suspect many of you believed me for a second there. Hello and welcome to Tier 11, where balance and common sense have gone to die by way of funny button. This is the story of the Five Super DDs which must face each other in the matchmaker, and why some super-destroyers are more super than others. 

I have stated elsewhere that the introduction of Tier 11 ships was a mistake because they devalue the original end-game of collecting Tier 10 ships, wreak havoc on the matchmaker, and generally don't -- or can't -- play like the rest of their tech tree. The last two points are worth expanding on a little bit in order to contextualize why the Kunming may be struggling.

The War of the Five Destroyers

Let's say I wanted to queue up in a bog-standard Gearing, one of twenty-five⁶ destroyers in her tier. In theory, there is a 4% chance that the matchmaker puts me against any one of these Tier 10 DDs, including a mirror of my own ship. In practice, these numbers are skewed by the popularity of certain ships over others, but there is no doubt that -- over time -- the matchmaker will make my experience plenty varied.

Among those 25 DDs that I could be matched against in my Gearing, about a third has higher functional DPM, about a third has situationally better torpedoes, about a third has a similar or better concealment, and about a third has situationally better utility (radar, hydro). Crucially, however, the top dogs in each category are not the same ships. Sometimes our DPM will be stronger, other times we will have to rely on our concealment and torpedoes for impact. In other words: a knowledgeable player can adapt their decision-making to what the matchmaker has put against them. 

Now let's queue up in a Kunming. We are one of five Tier 11 DDs. There is a 20% chance we get matched up against any one of them, which grows to 25% in practice because hardly anyone plays the Pan-Asian DD. Consider the near-inevitable result:

• Kunming will get out-gunned. Yamagiri, Humphreys, and Zorkiy all have funny-buttons. Kunming does not. Dalarna has no funny-button, but in exchange has the highest base HE DPM of the five. 
• Kunming will get out-spotted. Yamagiri, Humphreys, and Dalarna have superior concealment. The Zorkiy doesn't care because he can run us down and ruin our life with impunity.
• Kunming will get out-traded. All four remaining DDs have higher base HP. Dalarna has a heal. Zorkiy has armor and probably also a heal.

What choice does the Kunming have but to avoid their T11 DD counterpart? Okay, not a great start, but what if we just ignore each other and focus on killing the enemy team as fast as possible? Maybe that can work; the Kunming has a very strong torpedo suite. But so do the Yamagiri and the Dalarna: in addition to their other advantages over us, they both have flexible dual-torpedo setups on better cooldowns. Zorkiy and Humphreys excel at murdering unwary destroyers and also at farming fires on unfortunate battleships. Unless there is a Jinan-wet-dream-TRB-scenario where several enemy capital ships are pushing through a relatively constrained area, it is hard to imagine us dispatching an enemy team significantly faster than the other T11 DDs. Even if we avoid the direct matchup, the odds of winning the damage race are not stacked greatly in the our favor.

Sadly, this the overwhelmingly likely situation that every Kunming player signs up for when they press the 'battle' button. Barring the once-in-a-blue-moon Pan-Asian T11 DD duel, the limited pool of super-DDs means that -- for the runt of the litter -- the matchmaker cannot help but perpetuate her unfortunate fate.

Chonk-Masters of the Universe

By and large, the Tier 10 DDs represent the state of development for the class at the end of World War 2 and going into the early Cold War. Quite a few of them were built in steel, which grounds their dimensions and capabilities within the realm of the plausible. The Tier 11 destroyers, by contrast, seem to have originated from a game-design necessity of inflating T10 destroyer hulls to fit fantasy-levels of firepower. Yamagiri, Humphreys, Dalarna, and Kunming are essentially bigger versions of the Shimakaze, Gearing, Halland, and Somers -- up-scaled to fit sextuple torp launchers, bigger turrets, more turrets, and quintuple launchers, respectively. 

Sadly, the price of progress was maneuverability. The developer's internal 'realism' equation dictated that bigger hull must equal bigger turning circle and sluggish-er rudder shift.⁷ Not counting the Zorkiy, which is supposed to feel like a small cruiser, the Tier 11 DDs disappointingly handle like giant tubs of lard. This is particularly problematic since they are supposed to operate near caps -- i.e. the most torpedo- and radar-infested waters in the game. Due to their bulk they must therefore be more cautious and keep a safer distance, lest one misposition cost them a huge chunk of their health. The result is that despite their augmented weaponry, the Tier 11 DDs are often less effective at fulfilling mission-critical roles than their Tier 10 counterparts.

Stealth me baby

We arrive at last at the proposed buffs for 0.13.1: Kunming's base detectability range will be reduced from 7.8km -> 7.4km, with her aerial spotting going from 3.9km base to ~3.7km. Fully built for concealment, that would mean she would now have 6.0km ship spotting and ~3.0km aerial spotting. This is not an insignificant improvement. Her old concealment put her frighteningly close to category of "Big Scary DDs" that are purpose-built to bully smaller botes (see chart below). A 6.0km stealth rating would place her into the solid mid-field of general purpose destroyers; nothing absurdly stealthy but good enough to avoid the most unpalatable opponents with relative consistency. In terms of T11 matchups, it would move her ahead of Dalarna and within 80m of Humphreys. 

The concealment buff also offers the most audacious of radar-Kunming captains the option of forgoing Concealment Expert in favor of greater gunpower. As of 0.13.1 she would have a 6.6km detect with only one of the two stealth upgrades, which allows for better synergy with the 7.5km radar. Given how floaty the American-made shells are on the Kunming, every bit closer that she can sneak to her victim improves the effective damage output.     

Spoiler

Will the buff make a difference? 

Yes, but not a way that really matters. The matchups vs. other T11 DDs have not significantly changed; the Kunming still has massive disadvantages against her four tier-mates. Her success will still be determined by how efficiently she performs in the damage-race with her opposite number. To that end, moving into the mid-field of stealthy DDs will definitely make things a bit easier in terms of positioning and evading predation. But she remains a chonky girl that is extra-vulnerable to torpedoes and gunfire when caught out in a bad position -- even with better concealment her handling remains ponderous, meaning that her ability to fulfill her front-line role as a destroyer continues to be questionable. 

Conclusion 

Buff to concealment improves quality of life but leaves the real reasons for the Kunming's struggles -- bad T11 matchups and a bloated platform unsuited for front-line destroyer play -- unchanged. 

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Final Thoughts

Three down, thirty six ships to go. I wanted to get this article out the door quickly, but my inability to settle for a half-baked analysis meant that each ship change took quite a long time to digest. I am grateful for your patience. Thank you for reading ❤️ 

 

 

Footnotes

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¹ I admit to being somewhat envious when I saw this; the extra main battery range in particular would be nice to have. My current Dalian build runs the 6th slot range mod for added flexibility, but if our version had 14.1km base range, it would make that decision a lot more interesting.

² Without other surveillance tools, the Dalian still wouldn't be able to solo-hunt DDs very efficiently. The most she could do would be to lay in ambush, but experienced DD players would understand how to minimize that threat. 

³ See my analysis of the Pan-Asian CLAAs for a deeper dive into why their captain builds are under so much pressure. In short, not having to run concealment mod would allow for folks to run torpedo lookout mod (very important on a hydro-less smoke cruiser). Not having to run concealment expert saves 4pts. that can be invested in offensive skills like Heavy HE, Adrenalin Rush, or IFHE. 

⁴ NA Server, random battles, all players/Top 10%, https://na.wows-numbers.com/ship/3740218576,Sun-Yat-Sen/ accessed January 31st 2024.

⁵ Summary of the major differences between the Sun Yat-Sen and the Sovetsky Soyuz.

Spoiler

• Survivability: In a long, drawn-out battle the Pan-Asian battleship has the upper hand, due to her unlimited DCPs and an extra charge of Repair Party. However when it comes to short, intense engagements, the Sovetsky Soyuz has better tools: Fast Damage Controls plus an extra ~10% base HP mean that she has the advantage in close quarters fights.
• Gunnery: Once again the Sun Yat-Sen has the better long range capabilities: not only can she augment her range with the 6th slot module, but her guns benefit from battlecruiser dispersion, better sigma, and better air drag. At close ranges, the Soyuz's six front-facing barrels and nine total guns mean that she has a much higher salvo weight, even when taking the upcoming buffs to the Sun Yat-Sen into account.
• Anti-Air: The addition of Defensive AA means that the Sun Yat-Sen's plane swatting capabilities will generally be much stronger, even if she is lacking a bit of range compared to her Russian cousin. Particularly the 4km mid-range of the Pan-Asian BB will be formidable when boosted by DefAA, meaning that certain plane types (Dive Bombers in particular) will really struggle. The Soyuz instead receives a Fighter, which can act as a minor strike deterrence, but is probably most useful as an impromptu ship-spotting tool. 
• Captains: Given their concurrent release, it can be said that Sun Yat-Sen was (at least partially) designed to synergize with Sa Zhenbing. He brings several survivability perks to the table, most notably the Emergency Supplies talent, boosting consumable cooldowns based on potential damage. He also sports an improved Emergency Repair Specialist and Vigilance. Soyuz would be optimal with Admiral Kuznetsov and his two battleship boosting talents Emergency Reserves (+1 consumable for first kill) and Will to Victory (below 10% HP you pop a free DCP, heal and enemy dispersion de-buff); though how many players are willing to commit this legendary captain to a tech-tree tier 9 is an open question. 

⁶ There are technically 26 Tier 10 destroyers, but Kléber and Kléber CLR are being counted as one ship. Experientially, the number is actually slightly higher, since certain consumable choices (e.g. radar vs. smoke Yueyang) and legendary modules (e.g. Kléber) mean that some ships could be one of two very different play-styles.

⁷ Someone still needs to explain to me why Italian cruisers can break the laws of physics with their tiny turning circle but Tier 11 DDs must turn like oil-tankers.

^x Running count of development changes being undone: 7 (0.13.1: Dalian, Sun Yat-Sen | 0.12.11: Marlborough | 0.12.10: Rahmat, Chumphon, Harbin, Sejong). 

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[I_cant_Swim_]

Very nice work! A great read, and I simply love your succinct and illustrative figures and tables. Well done, and thank you.

Edit: Please, help yourself.

 

(Bing Image Creator)

[Admiral_Karasu]

I must have fallen behind times the big way, because I myself don't have any of these ships. Now, Yamagiri at least I do have, and it seems if I was looking for more T11 DD's, Zorkiy or Dalarna might be the more interesting choices, and I think thanks to this analysis I will not be committing the 'grave error'.

@I_cant_Swim_ Nice image!

[Wolfswetpaws]

🍿

[Nevermore135]

Nice to see the last-minute nerfs to Sun-Yatsen and Dalian being rolled back. IMO, they always felt like someone (probably higher up the ladder with little hands-on experience with the product) took a look at the ships and decided that they were too similar to certain “problematic” ships that were released in the past (Georgia and Smolensk, respectively) and thus needed to be hamstrung prior to release.

Of course, this would indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes/made these earlier ships such an issue in the first place (Georgia having so many gimmicks and Smolensk’s armor and range already being addressed in past “reworks”) but that’s why I suspect these decisions were not driven from the bottom up in the Dev team.

Edited February 6 by Nevermore135

[torino2dc]

On 2/6/2024 at 3:10 PM, Nevermore135 said:

Nice to see the last-minute nerfs to Sun-Yatsen and Dalian being rolled back

As you might have seen, I am going to be keeping a running count of the last minute nerfs development changes being rolled back. I have an inkling this actually has happened quite often, indicating that there is an entity in the balancing process that is throwing a spanner in the works.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

On 2/2/2024 at 12:11 PM, torino2dc said:

There are technically 26 Tier 10 destroyers, but Kléber and Kléber CLR are being counted as one ship. Experientially, the number is actually slightly higher, since certain consumable choices (e.g. radar vs. smoke Yueyang) and legendary modules (e.g. Kléber) mean that some ships could be one of two very different play-styles.

The hidden spiciness here is of course that while Kleber and Kleber CLR are functionally the same ship when stripped naked, the Unique Upgrade is capable of being fitted to either one. So if you ground out the Kleber and coughed up for the Kleber CLR, you can have your cake and eat it too; which would definitely make them "experientially" two separate ships.

If WG is reverting some pre-release nerfs, that says to me they were genuinely concerned about the risk of releasing a ship in an overtuned condition but now have enough data to let the brakes off, as it were. 

I think your 1:1 comparison is flawed in just about every context except 1v1 brawls, which I don't think any sane person will take a tech-tree Pan-Asian DD into unless they're ready to lose the destroyer fight against any but the most hapless opponent, and hope for a cruiser, BB or carrier that they can drench with torpedoes. You're going to have other ships around you, you're quite possibly going to have div-mates, and it's not going to be quite so cut and dried as your comparison suggests. Granted, if you and another, red, Super-DD are the last two destroyers on the map and isolated from your team-mates in the end-game, then yes, all the issues you've raised definitely come directly to the fore - and then it will come down to which of you has the most remaining health and can survive the subsequent gunfight (because you won't be torpedoing him). 

But that in turn will come down to everything else that's happened in the battle, so it's still not cut and dried. At least the Kunming has an eight-gun salvo, so if your aim is good you can carve a chunk off the other guy and quite possibly kill him outright if he's already severely depleted.

[HogHammer]

I always wanted the Dalian to succeed.  It is REALLY a challenge to play.  Still not enough TLC from WoWs.

[torino2dc]

16 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

I think your 1:1 comparison is flawed in just about every context except 1v1 brawls, which I don't think any sane person will take a tech-tree Pan-Asian DD into unless they're ready to lose the destroyer fight against any but the most hapless opponent, and hope for a cruiser, BB or carrier that they can drench with torpedoes. You're going to have other ships around you, you're quite possibly going to have div-mates, and it's not going to be quite so cut and dried as your comparison suggests. Granted, if you and another, red, Super-DD are the last two destroyers on the map and isolated from your team-mates in the end-game, then yes, all the issues you've raised definitely come directly to the fore - and then it will come down to which of you has the most remaining health and can survive the subsequent gunfight (because you won't be torpedoing him). 

I agree with you that it is very rarely a 1v1 against the other super-DD. The point I was trying to make was that the other T11 DD always has the option of going after the Kunming with one of their several advantages (firepower, concealment, health). Kunming basically always has to win the damage race, which given how good the other T11 DDs kits are, is not always an straightforward proposition. 

I probably could have said it more succinctly, but this paragraph was trying to express that:

On 2/2/2024 at 4:41 PM, torino2dc said:

What choice does the Kunming have but to avoid their T11 DD counterpart? Okay, not a great start, but what if we just ignore each other and focus on killing the enemy team as fast as possible? Maybe that can work; the Kunming has a very strong torpedo suite. But so do the Yamagiri and the Dalarna: in addition to their other advantages over us, they both have flexible dual-torpedo setups on better cooldowns. Zorkiy and Humphreys excel at murdering unwary destroyers and also at farming fires on unfortunate battleships. Unless there is a Jinan-wet-dream-TRB-scenario where several enemy capital ships are pushing through a relatively constrained area, it is hard to imagine us dispatching an enemy team significantly faster than the other T11 DDs. Even if we avoid the direct matchup, the odds of winning the damage race are not stacked greatly in the our favor.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

9 minutes ago, torino2dc said:

Kunming basically always has to win the damage race

The point I'm making is that she's not always doomed to do it alone. Sure, a Zorkiy can charge you and start laying into you; but sucks to be the Zorkiy if, say, he gets radared and buzz-sawed by a cruiser in the process. If the Kunming player is sticking their neck so far out that they're beyond the help of their team, or if the team-mates are binocular-locked and farming battleships instead of helping out, then yeah, your concerns are fully valid. 

[Infidel]

Just found my new WoWS info goto, thanks @torino2dc