Asym Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) Ok, there comes a time where someone says: "you can't ever do that ! That's just plain nuts..." You see the foot of the "ball turret" operator ^^^^^^^^^ (Copied from SPARTAN117GW and used for information purposes only) Imagine, if you will, it's night time on the black sea and "action stations" jars you into your duty position in the CIWS (quad M-134 Miniguns) turret and your thermal targeting sight has the rocket bloom headed your way........ Each DD should have two of these in a B - X staggered mount..... Imagine a PT boat with this mounted where the 40MM was mounted... Watch this You Tube video. Oooooooooh.... I want. Edited October 22, 2023 by Asym 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 1 hour ago, Asym said: Oooooooooh.... I want. Understandably. 🙂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor3006 Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 2 hours ago, Asym said: Ok, there comes a time where someone says: "you can't ever do that ! That's just plain nuts..." You see the foot of the "ball turret" operator ^^^^^^^^^ (Copied from SPARTAN117GW and used for information purposes only) Imagine, if you will, it's night time on the black sea and "action stations" jars you into your duty position in the CIWS (quad M-134 Miniguns) turret and your thermal targeting sight has the rocket bloom headed your way........ Each DD should have two of these in a B - X staggered mount..... Imagine a PT boat with this mounted where the 40MM was mounted... Watch this You Tube video. Oooooooooh.... I want. THAT is on my Christmas list..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asym Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) Of course, let's not let moss grow under one's feet......... That translates into Russian in an interesting way ! So there US, take this ! Imagine if you will, two faster GAU-8's side by side..... Oh no, that can not be! BTW, they are counter-rotating barrels. And, what do we have in the game.............pom-poms.......yeah. Edited October 23, 2023 by Asym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invicta2012 Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 On 10/22/2023 at 8:41 PM, Taylor3006 said: Imagine, if you will, it's night time on the black sea and "action stations" jars you into your duty position in the CIWS (quad M-134 Miniguns) turret and your thermal targeting sight has the rocket bloom headed your way........ Each DD should have two of these in a B - X staggered mount..... Why? That looks very impressive, but it's a manually aimed WW2 quad machine gun mount firing rifle ammunition. Compared to any of the current automated AA autocannon systems it's all sound and fury. On 10/24/2023 at 12:40 AM, Asym said: And, what do we have in the game.............pom-poms.......yeah. Intended to throw up a curtain of fire and deter multiple simultaneous attacks, which was definitely the thing in WW2, particularly in the Pacific; the number of planes involved in each attack in that theatre is really quite mindboggling (and would overwhelm any present day CIWS system). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asym Posted November 5, 2023 Author Share Posted November 5, 2023 3 hours ago, invicta2012 said: Why? That looks very impressive, but it's a manually aimed WW2 quad machine gun mount firing rifle ammunition. Compared to any of the current automated AA autocannon systems it's all sound and fury. Intended to throw up a curtain of fire and deter multiple simultaneous attacks, which was definitely the thing in WW2, particularly in the Pacific; the number of planes involved in each attack in that theatre is really quite mindboggling (and would overwhelm any present day CIWS system). I am not sure you grasp the dynamics of this weapon.... First, it's not anywhere close to the WW2 M2 quad mounts.... The max rate of fire of the quad 50 is at most 2,300 RPM and didn't have the ammo storage of M-134 Quad.... The M-134 quads operate between 2,000 to 6,000 RPM !!! If we had them in WW2, very, very few Kamakazi's would have gotten through because of the ROF these systems have. Another critical fact: some CIWS can't aim below 5-15 degrees of their mounts.... This CIWS has that ability. Israel and our Navy found out the hard way several years ago that their Bushmaster mounts could not depress far enough to engage close in ships or small craft.... This system could when mounted into a "blister" on either side.... And, let's not forget, it could be automated as well and tied into the existing CIWS automation. It's value is volume of fire.....very close in.... Imagine this system on a 5 ton truck with a thermal/lidar radar aiming system and what it would to to drones.... Heck, you could go down a caliber and use the 5.56 version for drones (M-214 at 300 to 10,000 RPM's !!!) That's a lot of bullets...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Asym said: I am not sure you grasp the dynamics of this weapon.... First, it's not anywhere close to the WW2 M2 quad mounts.... The max rate of fire of the quad 50 is at most 2,300 RPM and didn't have the ammo storage of M-134 Quad.... The M-134 quads operate between 2,000 to 6,000 RPM !!! If we had them in WW2, very, very few Kamakazi's would have gotten through because of the ROF these systems have. Another critical fact: some CIWS can't aim below 5-15 degrees of their mounts.... This CIWS has that ability. Israel and our Navy found out the hard way several years ago that their Bushmaster mounts could not depress far enough to engage close in ships or small craft.... This system could when mounted into a "blister" on either side.... And, let's not forget, it could be automated as well and tied into the existing CIWS automation. It's value is volume of fire.....very close in.... Imagine this system on a 5 ton truck with a thermal/lidar radar aiming system and what it would to to drones.... Heck, you could go down a caliber and use the 5.56 version for drones (M-214 at 300 to 10,000 RPM's !!!) That's a lot of bullets...... Earlier, this morning, like Hermione Granger, I did a bit of light reading ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-in_weapon_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS The ammunition capacity compared with the rate of fire, indicates to me that the Phalanx CIWS, among others, might exhaust its ammunition before shooting down a large number of aircraft. It's not that the system isn't able to shoot down a plane, its that there is a limited ammount of ammunition which might not sustain operation for an attack which lasts a while and involves a target-rich environment. Also of note, newer versions are capable of dealing with small watercraft and low-flying planes & drones. But the limited ammo problem remains a concern if the CIWS is "swarmed" and other defensive systems are unavailable/unable to pick-up the figurative slack. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfswetpaws Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Asym said: Imagine this system on a 5 ton truck with a thermal/lidar radar aiming system and what it would to to drones.... Heck, you could go down a caliber and use the 5.56 version for drones (M-214 at 300 to 10,000 RPM's !!!) That's a lot of bullets...... Effective Range becomes limited, due to the ballistics of 7.62x51mmNATO or 5.56x45mmNATO cartridges, though. Even with .50BMG ammo, the effective range is a problem (even when using sophisticated radar & Forward Looking Infra-Red targeting systems). Edited November 5, 2023 by Wolfswetpaws 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asym Posted November 5, 2023 Author Share Posted November 5, 2023 Just now, Wolfswetpaws said: Earlier, this morning, like Hermione Granger, I did a bit of light reading ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-in_weapon_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS The ammunition capacity compared with the rate of fire, indicates to me that the Phalanx CIWS, among others, might exhaust its ammunition before shooting down a large number of aircraft. It's not that the system isn't able to shoot down a plane, its that there is a limited ammount of ammunition which might not sustain operation for an attack which lasts a while and involves a target-rich environment. Also of note, newer versions are capable of dealing with small watercraft and low-flying planes & drones. But the limited ammo problem remains a concern if the CIWS is "swarmed" and other defensive systems are unavailable/unable to pick-up the figurative slack. I agree, we built ourselves into a corner..... Goalkeeper is the Gau-8 and it has very limited ammo. CIWS is the M-61 variant of the 20mm and is limited in ammunition... And, here is a very simply 7.62 CIWS that has all external stacked ammo........and, a large amount of it is easily accessible and external ! Ever hump 20mm ammo??? Or, 50 caliber for the M2/M86's - it's a outright PITA..... Now, 7.62 gets you 50% more ammo and it is a lot easier to load ! Heck, I'd do the same thing with the M-214 in 5.56 and mount that in a 5 ton truck and add a simply LIDAR radar to the Thermal sights it'd some with for Drones... Heck, we even talked about the using the American-180 system in a remote Anti-RPG/ATGM mount that would target the heat bloom. They'd have to expand the ammo drum to 1,000. Imagine if you will, you are in the middle of a city where up is the most dangerous direction; and, you now have two CIWS mounted in the bussel rack and you hear that "Buzzzz-ipppppp" as an inbound ATGM tipped over for a terminal strike and the "booom-whosh" of the missile coming apart..... Yep, the concept we had with the MBT-70 comes to life.......in a kiddie round most of us Boomers shot thousands of rounds of !!!! Of course, we also want a Gau-12 instead of the M68A1 (105mm) and a dual coax M240/M19 (with a longer barrel).... 4 ATGM's in armored pop-ups for Anti-Armor and the "Hornet's Nest" CIWS all in the Bussel Rack.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asym Posted November 5, 2023 Author Share Posted November 5, 2023 18 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said: Effective Range becomes limited, due to the ballistics of 7.62x51mmNATO or 5.56x45mmNATO cartridges, though. Even with .50BMG ammo, the effective range is a problem (even when using sophisticated radar & Forward Looking Infra-Red targeting systems). Alas, we are shooting Drones (or, ATGM's) and they have to "come to you" to be effective..... Small target, small munition. But, what do I know.......Lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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