Submarine U-4501 "the Underwater Benham"?

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

Isn't that many videos out on U-4501 yet but what I can tell it looks like a underwater version of Benham almost. Sure, not same torps, number of torps etc etc but a short range (10 km) submarine with a great surface detect of 5,4 km and 4 torps in bow and 2x3 torps on each side bow, so pretty much perfect sub to just drive donuts on the surface spewing out torps from all sides .... that also home in on target.

And of course,also a heal ...... because why not...

Also of course Insane underwater speed....

Anyone picked this up yet? I will buy this with next coupon in december.

Edited October 15, 2023 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube

[Admiral_Karasu]

Oh Jesus.. etc... just what this game needed.

/s <---------

[desmo_2]

I have gobs of coal so I bought it.  I don't even play subs.

I played one game with it in Co-op for the Naval Battles points.  I didn't spin around and use the rear torpedoes at all, so I probably played it wrong.  I couldn't figure out why I wasn't seeing the insane speed until I watched a video illustrating it has to be submerged for that speed.

It's another Tier 10 in my fleet.  If I play it again I'll be sure to use its gimmicks more effectively.  If I still remember them by that point.

[majmac]

2 hours ago, desmo_2 said:

I couldn't figure out why I wasn't seeing the insane speed until I watched a video illustrating it has to be submerged for that speed.

So, it goes faster underwater than when surfaced?

If so, don't WG developers understand simple physics?

Edited October 15, 2023 by I_cant_Swim_
breach of forum rules

[b101uk]

1 hour ago, majmac said:

So, it goes faster underwater than when surfaced?

If so, are all WG developers raving idiots who do not understand simple physics?

most subs IRL since the mid\late 40's have been faster under water than on the surface.

 

e.g. the German Type XXI submarines did 15.6 knots surfaced and 17.2 knots submerged, which were the class before the Type XXVI submarine (none fully completed)

Edited October 15, 2023 by b101uk

[Verblonde]

4 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Anyone picked this up yet?

Aye, but only because I had buckets of coal spare, and she's quite pretty (for a submarine).

I won't be playing her against real people though (because I'm not a cat-shaving psychopath); based on an initial run-out, she's vaguely fun in Coop.

[Captain_Lootbox]

I’m getting this and doing some good old-fashioned trash-talking.   If my karma doesn’t get back down to 0 today, then I’ll be disappointed. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by HogHammer
Descriptive language edit

[tocqueville8]

I've picked it up, mainly because she's somewhat historical and my only other Tier 10 coal option is the Malta (ugh...). Played 5 games: a good loss, a decent win, the rest quite awful. Then again, I'm terrible with subs, so YMMV.

The problems with the "underwater Benham" concept, imho, are three:

• Benham is a USN DD, meaning a slippery one. If she goes out there spamming torps and gets radared, she can wiggle and dodge a lot of it. This sub will get "out-radared" by the U-2501 (6 km Submarine Surveillance vs 9) and radared when on the surface, and well-aimed depth charges, never mind gunfire, have splash damage, so she's in fact far less survivable than a Benham, heal or no heal. Add to this that, if you want to escape someone else's Submarine Surveillance, the procedure is to emerge...but that will cut your speed by 50%!
• her torpedo DPM is half the Benham's, and the stock reaction time is 10s because the detection is an awful 2.2 km. She'll be far less oppressive to enemy DDs because of that
• she has to choose between going fast and deal damage, or even just spot, from stealth. She's only fast when submerged, but torps fired then have to be pinged or they won't emerge. And if you ping you'll give your position away: maybe an enemy sub won't come over to light you up, but you'll get dropped and generally dealt with some other way.

Edited October 15, 2023 by tocqueville8

[HMS_Kilinowski]

4 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Anyone picked this up yet? I will buy this with next coupon in december.

 

Yep, got it. A couple of things are noteworthy. While it spits out a lot of torps, they are only the homing ones. Apparently WG has designed them to not be suited for dev strikes. Especially they are not suited for shotgun attacks. The front torps are too few and too low damage to kill a healthy ship. And the rear torps got two non-overlapping torp sectors for 3 torps each. So, if you're fleeing, you can make that last second shotgun attack only with 3 torps. The torps have a 3° spread - according to Shiptools - which however look more like the 5° on RN subs. Shiptools still got the test-ship data. Maybe I'm biased, but could be they changed it before release.

Anyway, you're not going to hit all 3 torps with that spread and even if you do, they won't kill a healthy/saturated DD.

What's great from a sub player's perspective is the underwater speed, which for the first time allows a sub to not get caught out, when their team suddenly abandons the flank and leaves them overextended in noman's land. So the combination with the need to dive and the possibility to cover some ground will make subs more survivable, especially with the heal after successful disengagement.

Offensively, the high underwater speed is a noob trap, since it is very tempting to try and catch up with the battle, run into unspotted trouble and then not have the battery reserves to get out alive.

So all in all this is imo the kiting version of a submarine, a sub that wants to torp its rear torps into an enemy push, while outspotting all enemy submarines and be able to dive and run, if things get too hot.

The speed may seem amazing, but it only works in a straight line after Henri levels of acceleration. I remember from the training room testing we did on subs in our clan, that your depth charges tend to fall short, when the sub is moving into you, but have a high chance of missing, if the sub is running away. Iirc the ping-indicator may be closer than the sub, but never further away. Combine that knowledge with the U-4501 design. It means, due to its higher speed the U-4501 has a higher chance than other subs of actually running into depth charges, when moving towards the enemy, but a lower change of getting hit, when running away.

So pretty much like when Kleber came out. Players will need to adjust their inner clockworks to giving more lead to U-4501.

Tactically, since the U-4501 is slow while turning, predicting its position is actually easier. It will not bait depth charges pretending to go one way while diving, and then making a surprise turn the other way, once unspotted. The U-4501 will go in a straight line. Once players have adapted to that and give more lead in the last known direction, that will make the U-4501 imo very vulnerable to counterplay.

[Admiral_Karasu]

2 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

 

Yep, got it. A couple of things are noteworthy. While it spits out a lot of torps, they are only the homing ones. Apparently WG has designed them to not be suited for dev strikes. Especially they are not suited for shotgun attacks. The front torps are too few and too low damage to kill a healthy ship. And the rear torps got two non-overlapping torp sectors for 3 torps each. So, if you're fleeing, you can make that last second shotgun attack only with 3 torps. The torps have a 3° spread - according to Shiptools - which however look more like the 5° on RN subs. Shiptools still got the test-ship data. Maybe I'm biased, but could be they changed it before release.

Anyway, you're not going to hit all 3 torps with that spread and even if you do, they won't kill a healthy/saturated DD.

What's great from a sub player's perspective is the underwater speed, which for the first time allows a sub to not get caught out, when their team suddenly abandons the flank and leaves them overextended in noman's land. So the combination with the need to dive and the possibility to cover some ground will make subs more survivable, especially with the heal after successful disengagement.

Offensively, the high underwater speed is a noob trap, since it is very tempting to try and catch up with the battle, run into unspotted trouble and then not have the battery reserves to get out alive.

So all in all this is imo the kiting version of a submarine, a sub that wants to torp its rear torps into an enemy push, while outspotting all enemy submarines and be able to dive and run, if things get too hot.

The speed may seem amazing, but it only works in a straight line after Henri levels of acceleration. I remember from the training room testing we did on subs in our clan, that your depth charges tend to fall short, when the sub is moving into you, but have a high chance of missing, if the sub is running away. Iirc the ping-indicator may be closer than the sub, but never further away. Combine that knowledge with the U-4501 design. It means, due to its higher speed the U-4501 has a higher chance than other subs of actually running into depth charges, when moving towards the enemy, but a lower change of getting hit, when running away.

So pretty much like when Kleber came out. Players will need to adjust their inner clockworks to giving more lead to U-4501.

Tactically, since the U-4501 is slow while turning, predicting its position is actually easier. It will not bait depth charges pretending to go one way while diving, and then making a surprise turn the other way, once unspotted. The U-4501 will go in a straight line. Once players have adapted to that and give more lead in the last known direction, that will make the U-4501 imo very vulnerable to counterplay.

TLDR; We are screwed.

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Anyone picked this up yet?

Suffice to say that I'm saving-up my coal and waiting for a coupon to renew.
I'm doing the same saving-up with my steel for the Gato, as well.

[HMS_Kilinowski]

10 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

TLDR; We are screwed.

No, not at all.

one of the implications of the design, is the serious handicap of the frequently hated shotgun attacks. This thing is more like a submarine version of Jäger, than Benham. We should see less plebs dying in the first 3 min and more steady damage. I think plebs will do well in it, while good players still hit harder in Gato, U-2501 or Balao.

[Scrubby_McScrub]

I have it. It's better than the 2501 in my opinion. Twice the recharge rate, so while it has less battery capacity, it feels like it has more effective battery over the course of a battle. Higher underwater speed means better battery efficiency because you can escape trouble at almost 38 with a speed flag. It had one purpose when thought up. Zip behind enemy lines undetected quickly and harrass from the rear. No, it won't assassinate anything with those torps and torp arrangement. So, shotgunning is out. She's small and super agile. Dodging torp attacks from other subs is pretty easy. So is evading depth charges. The darn thing nearly turns on a dime.

[Admiral_Karasu]

1 hour ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

No, not at all.

one of the implications of the design, is the serious handicap of the frequently hated shotgun attacks. This thing is more like a submarine version of Jäger, than Benham. We should see less plebs dying in the first 3 min and more steady damage. I think plebs will do well in it, while good players still hit harder in Gato, U-2501 or Balao.

In other words, you consider the pings and homing torps a lesser concern than the shotgun? I can see how that would be the case for maybe DD's and some cruisers, but isn't it the other way around for the BB's further back in the field?

[Lord_Slayer]

7 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Isn't that many videos out on U-4501 yet but what I can tell it looks like a underwater version of Benham almost. Sure, not same torps, number of torps etc etc but a short range (10 km) submarine with a great surface detect of 5,4 km and 4 torps in bow and 2x3 torps on each side bow, so pretty much perfect sub to just drive donuts on the surface spewing out torps from all sides .... that also home in on target.

And of course,also a heal ...... because why not...

Also of course Insane underwater speed....

Anyone picked this up yet? I will buy this with next coupon in december.

 

4 bow tubes, 2x3 aft facing tubes, each has a firing arc similar to the Thrasher.

Yes it has a heal, but it can only heal on the surface, not while underwater.

 

4 hours ago, majmac said:

So, it goes faster underwater than when surfaced?

If so, don't WG developers understand simple physics?

 

Most of the late war German subs were faster underwater then on the surface. Post-war US submarines also became faster underwater due to the Guppy program. The Balao in game is either a Guppy or a Fleet Snorkel boat.

The U-4501 is the Type XXVI sub which had a diesel motor, an electric motor, and the Walter Turbine, the hydrogen peroxide fueled engine.

[Admiral_Karasu]

1 minute ago, Lord_Slayer said:

 

Most of the late war German subs were faster underwater then on the surface. Post-war US submarines also became faster underwater due to the Guppy program. The Balao in game is either a Guppy or a Fleet Snorkel boat.

 

Ee... are you suggesting the sub speeds in the game are historically accurate?

[Lord_Slayer]

1 minute ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Ee... are you suggesting the sub speeds in the game are historically accurate?

if you are looking for historical accuracy in a game, the only thing you will find in this game with any accuracy is that a ship, or ship design, existed.

Beyond that there is no historical accuracy due to 'balance'.

But it is a known fact that many late war subs and post war subs were faster underwater then on the surface. It was the transition from a surface ship that could submerge for a time, to a ship that spent most of the time underwater then on the surface.

[majmac]

8 hours ago, b101uk said:

most subs IRL since the mid\late 40's have been faster under water than on the surface.

 

e.g. the German Type XXI submarines did 15.6 knots surfaced and 17.2 knots submerged, which were the class before the Type XXVI submarine (none fully completed)

I was not thinking only a knot or two faster. 

[b101uk]

36 minutes ago, majmac said:

I was not thinking only a knot or two faster. 

err at first, but later ones like the Type XXVI that U4501 is, were projected to be ~13kts (1#) faster submerged, which is also consistent with what see with similar designs that borrowed from the German Sub developments post ww2. 

 

(1#) (11 knots (20 km/h; 13 mph) surfaced, 24 knots (44 km/h; 28 mph) submerged)

Type XXVI submarine - Wikipedia

Edited October 15, 2023 by b101uk

[HMS_Kilinowski]

2 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

In other words, you consider the pings and homing torps a lesser concern than the shotgun? I can see how that would be the case for maybe DD's and some cruisers, but isn't it the other way around for the BB's further back in the field?

BBs are the least concerned, cause they can easily dodge. As long as you don't make a gamer turn just as you should expect the torps to reach your ship, you should at least have time to either DCP the ping on the first set, in case you are nose in, then turn safely while the torps are reloading and then get ~3km space of dodging no-longer homing, overcompensating torps.

The shotguns are a problem for unsuspecting or overconfident enemies. a.k.a. straight-lining BBs and pitbull DDs. That is because there is two types of shotgun attacks. The well-planned offensive ones, mostly against BBs into their broadside, and the defensive last resort ones against mostly DDs trying to get on top of the sub to depth charge.

I'm not sure why that is, but I guess it has a lot to do with the layering of the enemy team. They DDs in the front line are prone to shotgunning, cause of the close range. It's often the cruisers that get pinged, cause they are the ideal combination. The torps home until the last moment, the cruisers don't have the long DCP of BBs. So you get a ping and can even get a new ping after DCP for the very same set of torps.

With BBs you announce yourself with the ping, then they turn and run and by the time your second set reaches them, they are either out of range and the torps run out, or they dodge, cause the homing end 2km away from the BB and the BB travels another 1km baiting the torps into overcompensating some mild maneuver.

That's why I would characterize the U-4501 as noob-friendly. it works sufficiently well with their play-style and forgives some mistakes. The noobs don't try risky shotgun-attacks, they dump loads of torps from safe cover of their team and ping.

[Jakob Knight]

The U-4501 is a sub with some good qualities, but some downsides that can cost a player who thinks it's a supersub.

 

The heal only working on the surface means the sub will be stuck running at a maximum of 20 knts on the surface while using it, and it must remain on the surface or not get the full effect of the repair party consumable.  Diving at any part ends the duration.  And this is on top of the low hull points that this Sub starts with.

 

The fast underwater speed gets lost if you turn, and the sub has less time underwater than the 2501.  This means it can dash in and find itself forced to surface unless the player carefully times the entire attack.

 

The limit of 10km on the torpedoes is short range at T10, and the distinct firing arcs of the two rear launchers means grouping all six into one attack is very difficult.  The four forward torpedoes are light for a T10 sub, but about what is expected for rear tubes at this level.  That they are limited to homing torpedoes means an individual hit is not as serious as it might be with other subs.

 

All that combines into a sub that can't run effectively on the surface, can't use one of its main consumables submerged, has to get closer to a target than most at its Tier would like (especially if the target is heading away from it), and has a more restrictive operational envelope for being underwater than it's tech tree counterpart.  I'm seriously thinking of passing on this Sub because I think the 2501 is a superior Sub, and the 4501 has alot of traps built into its gameplay.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Jakob Knight

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

I'm not sure why that is, but I guess it has a lot to do with the layering of the enemy team. They DDs in the front line are prone to shotgunning,

The stealthy DD's and the Submarines often spot each other in close proximity, possibly close enough for a "knife fight in a phone booth" situation.

Reminds me of the phrase, "a short life, but a merry one".

[Admiral_Karasu]

7 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

BBs are the least concerned, cause they can easily dodge. As long as you don't make a gamer turn just as you should expect the torps to reach your ship, you should at least have time to either DCP the ping on the first set, in case you are nose in, then turn safely while the torps are reloading and then get ~3km space of dodging no-longer homing, overcompensating torps.

The shotguns are a problem for unsuspecting or overconfident enemies. a.k.a. straight-lining BBs and pitbull DDs. That is because there is two types of shotgun attacks. The well-planned offensive ones, mostly against BBs into their broadside, and the defensive last resort ones against mostly DDs trying to get on top of the sub to depth charge.

I'm not sure why that is, but I guess it has a lot to do with the layering of the enemy team. They DDs in the front line are prone to shotgunning, cause of the close range. It's often the cruisers that get pinged, cause they are the ideal combination. The torps home until the last moment, the cruisers don't have the long DCP of BBs. So you get a ping and can even get a new ping after DCP for the very same set of torps.

With BBs you announce yourself with the ping, then they turn and run and by the time your second set reaches them, they are either out of range and the torps run out, or they dodge, cause the homing end 2km away from the BB and the BB travels another 1km baiting the torps into overcompensating some mild maneuver.

That's why I would characterize the U-4501 as noob-friendly. it works sufficiently well with their play-style and forgives some mistakes. The noobs don't try risky shotgun-attacks, they dump loads of torps from safe cover of their team and ping.

They way WG hooked the DCP to the torp homing is probably the single stupidest feature of the sub implementation in WoWS, though.

[Admiral_Karasu]

6 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The stealthy DD's and the Submarines often spot each other in close proximity, possibly close enough for a "knife fight in a phone booth" situation.

Reminds me of the phrase, "a short life, but a merry one".

Something like that... this clip cuts short though, so if you don't know the film... watch it in full.

Here's something a bit 'older' and more historic. The title is 'USS Ward, the first to fire'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJzQfeGotoc

(can't be embedded).

 

 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

18 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Suffice to say that I'm saving-up my coal and waiting for a coupon to renew.
I'm doing the same saving-up with my steel for the Gato, as well.

Same here, also looking at Gato as next steel ship, unfortunately since I refuse to go even close to competitive in this game it will probably take a while.

I was also wondering since all subs has a imaginary hitbox around them where they will take splash damage from shells, im wondering if this hitbox is smaller on 4501 compared to other T10 subs since the hull of this sub is so much smaller?!

Im not convinced of the lacking of shotgun effect on this sub as well. But it depends on situation. Face to face can be one thing but im thinking if a DD or a cruiser is chasing me and im trying to go away I could go to periscope outside my air detect and just wiggle my ass a bit to launch all the aft torps in its face.