Yuro on submarines

[iDuckman]

This is a straight (more or less) How to Play subs and ASW documentary.  Almost an hour long.  Learn how to play them and how to kill them.

 

[ArIskandir]

Has ArIskandir's seal of approval tho I disagree on some details on Homing Torpedo dodging, in my opinion zigzagging against active torpedo homing before having solid intel on the torps is a wasted effort and worst case scenario can set you up to a worst attack angle. I think better to line up to a favorable angle in order to fix the torps bearing into a predictable path... First WoWS video I watched in months, lol. 

[tocqueville8]

A very thorough dissertation.

The only thing I wish he discussed is the strategy of more or less bypassing the enemy DD/sub screen and going straight for the big targets behind. Obviously one needs a fast sub with long battery time, like the U-2501, but I've seen it happen and it was usually more disruptive to have to deal with. I've never tried it (I've hardly played subs, at all), but it might be better, for the average player, than trying to deal with the screen at all: a large proportion of subs are sunk basically in their first engagement and, even if they bounce back, they'll have to deal with Underwater Surveillance a minute later...

Edited October 13, 2023 by tocqueville8

[ArIskandir]

38 minutes ago, tocqueville8 said:

A very thorough dissertation.

The only thing I wish he discussed is the strategy of more or less bypassing the enemy DD/sub screen and going straight for the big targets behind. Obviously one needs a fast sub with long battery time, like the U-2501, but I've seen it happen and it was usually more disruptive to have to deal with. I've never tried it (I've hardly played subs, at all), but it might be better, for the average player, than trying to deal with the screen at all: a large proportion of subs are sunk basically in their first engagement and, even if they bounce back, they'll have to deal with Underwater Surveillance a minute later...

In my opinion, that's a poor "strategy". Grossly the equivalent of having a DD hug the border and going after the CV in the back line... The thing is you see when it happens succesfuly but you don't see the multiple times when the Sub botches the approach, is caught overextending and gets ignominously dispatched. There's a lot of things that must align in your favor in order to succesfully pull that play, and there's one certainty: You made yourself inconsequential to the outcome of the game for several minutes... the match might very well be half resolved by the time you got into attack position. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by ArIskandir

[ArIskandir]

2 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

In my opinion, that's a poor "strategy". Grossly the equivalent of having a DD hug the border and going after the CV in the back line... The thing is you see when it happens succesfuly but you don't see the multiple times when the Sub botches the approach, is caught overextending and gets ignominously dispatched. There's a lot of things that must align in your favor in order to succesfully pull that play, and there's one certainty: You made yourself inconsequential to the outcome of the match for several minutes... the match might very well be half resolved by the time you got into attack position. 

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

I'm most of the way through watching it...it seems good stuff... particularly the discussion of sub consumables, which I don't understand much yet since I haven't gone into playing them a lot yet.

Very interesting as a reference.

[Captain_Lootbox]

I don’t hate subs.  I just hate sub players.  

[iDuckman]

9 minutes ago, Captain_Lootbox said:

I don’t hate subs.  I just hate sub players.  

That's okay.  They hate you too.

 

[HogHammer]

3 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

That's okay.  They hate you too.

 

Actually, at times I think subs LOVE me.

 

[tocqueville8]

1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

In my opinion, that's a poor "strategy". Grossly the equivalent of having a DD hug the border and going after the CV in the back line...

That's the analogy, sure.

But the flanking Shima (let's say) might just find an RPF-gunboat in his path and be intercepted 2:30 into the game. A fast, submerged sub is safe for at least a couple of minutes longer, when his counterpart is going to have Underwater Surveillance ready.

And a sub doesn't have to take a long path around the flank: some can pretty much hyperspace their way through the middle at 30 knots or so. Also, going middle means one is less likely to find the enemy is playing passive and there are no targets available: it's just closer to the "center of mass" of the enemy team, it reduces the chance of being irrelevant.

I dunno, maybe it's just that most sub players have a lot of trouble against the screening ships, so anything else would be preferable. Then again, when I play torpedoboats myself, I try not to fixate too much on the enemy DDs: if I can get them, good, but if there's an opening to slip past (through the middle, not by wasting time going all the way around), I'll try to take it, as it will probably mean extra spotting and torps coming from uncomfortable directions.

[I_cant_Swim_]

2 hours ago, iDuckman said:

This is a straight (more or less) How to Play subs and ASW documentary

Great stuff, this. Thanks for the link!

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, Captain_Lootbox said:

I don’t hate subs.  I just hate sub players.  

Oh no...that's going to make you increasingly bitter. It's not a good way to approach a silly arcade game.

[Verblonde]

4 hours ago, iDuckman said:

This is a straight (more or less) How to Play subs and ASW documentary.  Almost an hour long.  Learn how to play them and how to kill them.

 

Many thanks for sharing that! Just sat through the whole thing - it's very good. Next job: try and apply some of the learnings...

[Wolfswetpaws]

4 hours ago, iDuckman said:

This is a straight (more or less) How to Play subs and ASW documentary.  Almost an hour long.  Learn how to play them and how to kill them.

 

Thanks for sharing.  🙂 

[ArIskandir]

17 hours ago, tocqueville8 said:

But the flanking Shima (let's say) might just find an RPF-gunboat in his path and be intercepted 2:30 into the game. A fast, submerged sub is safe for at least a couple of minutes longer, when his counterpart is going to have Underwater Surveillance ready.

It is true there are more tools to block a surface intruder than a Submarine intruder, tho the Submarine is still vulnerable to Hydro detection (but there enters into play the real unfair aspects of Submarines, the stealth Hydro consumable and the Omniscience skill, so yes it is fairly avoidable). 

The Submarines like DDs, have a very strong ability to provide Cap and vision control. Going underwater for long deprives your team of your contribution and assistance, it is selfish gameplay in the most extreme form which I dislike on a personal level, so even if it may be moderately effective to lurk in the enemy back line, my opinion is it carries less impact than direct Cap control and is objectively more riskier against able opponents . 

[Type_93]

20 hours ago, tocqueville8 said:

But the flanking Shima (let's say) might just find an RPF-gunboat in his path and be intercepted 2:30 into the game.

I swear that Smalland came out of nowhere!

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

On 10/13/2023 at 9:14 PM, iDuckman said:

This is a straight (more or less) How to Play subs and ASW documentary.  Almost an hour long.  Learn how to play them and how to kill them.

 

Pretty great video, watched the whole thing. Now just imagine if WeeGee actually posted a video like this upon submarine release into live .... food for thought. I guess its better to let the playerbase guess how stuff that makes zero sense works or wait for a community member to do the work for you. I Seriously wonder if WG themselves know all this or if some of this was news to them as well.

2 new things I actually learned watching this was oil leaks can be fixed just by surfacing and ASW planes can actually get tagged by CV fighters and ruin their spotting.

1 thing I would add is your sub doesn't have to face the target you want to fire torps at, now even close. After a ping you can run complete parallel to the target ship and fire the torps in a 90 degree angle away from the target and the torps will curve around and hit it. Could be good to know when playing the German T10 that only has forward launcher and cant do donuts like the US ones firing from both ends.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

3 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Pretty great video, watched the whole thing. Now just imagine if WeeGee actually posted a video like this upon submarine release into live .... food for thought. I guess its better to let the playerbase guess how stuff that makes zero sense works or wait for a community member to do the work for you. I Seriously wonder if WG themselves know all this or if some of this was news to them as well.

As far as I can tell, WG don't invest in that deep of playtesting for the game. It's a bit too much investment on a title whose balancing has always been more towards memes than actual equity.

The cost of a good employee is not cheap.

Plus, with the world situation and WG's need to abandon the Russia / Belarus based teams...not something we can expect anytime soon as they transition and try to recoup the lost profits.

[tocqueville8]

3 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

2 new things I actually learned...

I don't think I knew that Hydrophone can act as a sort of radar when the sub is at periscope depth. The description says "when submerged...", so I assumed it meant the sub had to be at 30 or 60 meters.

I also hadn't even considered that the vertical motion of the sub is independent of its cruising speed.

[Captain_Lootbox]

On 10/13/2023 at 11:27 PM, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Oh no...that's going to make you increasingly bitter. It's not a good way to approach a silly arcade game.

It’s my approach to life.  I went out with a guy that played subs on World of Warships.   I dumped him when I found out he did that.  
 

if he willing to do something as bad as play subs in World of Warships then I hate to think what morally corrupt things he’s willing to do in other walks of life. 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

On 10/13/2023 at 9:14 PM, iDuckman said:

This is a straight (more or less) How to Play subs and ASW documentary.  Almost an hour long.  Learn how to play them and how to kill them.

 

Interesting. I was hoping for a nice guide on subs for almost two years. But does it only cover the rather obvious technical implications of sub play or also some next level tactics? is it worth watching if you already got a bachelor in sub play? By now I've played almost 500 sub games and still it feels like I only scratch the surface - no pun intended.

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

 

Interesting. I was hoping for a nice guide on subs for almost two years. But does it only cover the rather obvious technical implications of sub play or also some next level tactics? is it worth watching if you already got a bachelor in sub play? By now I've played almost 500 sub games and still it feels like I only scratch the surface - no pun intended.

I've been involved in Submarine testing and play since the first release of them during an Halloween Event.

I watched Yuro's youtube video. 
While I knew and understood most of the information beforehand, there were a few tidbits here & there that I learned from.
So, I feel it is a comprehensive examination of Submarine & ASW play and is worth one's time to view the entire video.

If one has little time, the description below the video has topics & time-stamps, so that one may view the specific topics that interest them.

Also worth studying are the forum posts and youtube videos created by @ArIskandir and @Ahskance on Submarine play and dodging homing torpedoes.
 

https://www.youtube.com/@ariskandirr.8606/about

https://www.youtube.com/@ahskance6321/about
 
 

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

some next level tactics?

Personally, I derive inspiration from classic WW-II Submarine tactics, and some of the other games I've played that feature Submarines.

Yuro mentions that hitting the broadside of a ship is ideal.
That may not seem like a big revelation by itself.  It's a common principle in WOWs.
That said, setting-up the broadside shot and/or a shotgun attack *is* worth learning.

And that's when map understanding, situational awareness, proper positioning and concealment/detection & dive-capacity management come together.

If a Submarine can survive & thrive long enough to clear the local opposition (preferably with help from team-mates) then the Submarine can sail towards opponents and provide spotting for the team.
Vision control is a core concept that can help win battles by spotting opposing ships while preventing them from effectively targeting one's allies in return.
In battles which do not involve use of CV or Hybrid-ship planes, DD's and Submarines gain importance and influence (if played well enough).

The picture I'm enclosing was created to illustrate an aerial torpedo attack.
But, the concept of aiming where a target "will be" is relevant, and getting into a good firing position is an overlapping concept for both planes and ships.


This next image involves the use of a torpedo salvo that was deliberately spread-out, and then a ping was used to get them to converge.
Yuro discusses a variation of this in his video, wherein the torpedoes are launched in a time-staggered method.  
His method anticipates a target's attempts to dodge torpedoes.  The video illustration is very interesting and worth watching.  🙂 
Both tactics utilize the torpedo-homing game mechanic and are worth learning about, either as an attack method to use or as something to beware.


Note:  @ArIskandir has mentioned using a time-staggered method in some of his old forum posts and in some of his videos.
 

[Tricericon]

I found that video quite helpful. I took ol' Salmon out for a ranked spin using what I learned and my karma was getting obliterated at twice the usual rate. 

[ArIskandir]

On 10/15/2023 at 5:12 AM, HMS_Kilinowski said:

Interesting. I was hoping for a nice guide on subs for almost two years. But does it only cover the rather obvious technical implications of sub play or also some next level tactics?

The video is fairly thorough and I recommend it for everyone. For me it didn't covered anything I didn't knew before but I'm a rare case since I was activelly following and involved in Sub development since the very beginning. The video has some sections on Sub and Anti-Sub tactics which can come handy for basically everyone, but the real "depths" of Submarine play (pun intended) are not directly transferable knowledge as it implies heavy doses of situational awareness and timing, which you develop with practice and experience. 

The video will provide you with a solid theorical knowledge about Subs, but it is through experience you understand how to apply that knowledge into your gameplay.

The homing torpedo dodging part has some inaccuracies tho, for example zig-zagging is not a great idea... its kinda a "dodge by accident" situation, but overall its OK for entry level knowledge.