On criticizing Wargaming.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

Back when I was a lad, and had to walk uphill both directions to and from school in the snow, and before home gaming consoles and 8-bit microcomputers were a big thing, we had these things called video game arcades. You went to the place and you put coins in the machines. Inevitably your vehicle would die, or the game had a time limit, and then you had to feed in more coins. They were taking from your pocket every time you played. Sometimes you had to buy their (unrefundable) tokens to work the machines.

If I had gone into one of those places and proceeded to play while simultaneously voicing loudly to everyone within range that the proprietors were a bunch of malicious crooks and shakedown merchants, I'd have been, in escalating order:

1) Asked to leave.

2) Thrown out.

3) Told not to return. 

...regardless of how many of their unrefundable tokens I still had in my pocket or how much I had previously spent there.

 

 

If I'm polite, quiet and infrequent in my criticisms of WG's "greedy, money-hungry ways", and tend to react harshly to those who are less polite, quiet and infrequent, maybe it's because I remember a time when the gaming companies took your money just for the privilege of playing, getting the game changed because you didn't like the way it played was simply not on the cards, and repeatedly insulting and libelling the people who provided you the opportunity to play was likely to get you locked out. 

Now if you want to point at something specific and say "This is not a good bargain because...", chances are I'll say "Nope, I'm not buying that either, and for the same reason." But dragging out the malicious-motives argument isn't going to find you in my good graces, especially with regard to content that either doesn't have to be paid for or can't be bought at any price.

 

[That WoT Player]

4 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Back when I was a lad, and had to walk uphill both directions to and from school in the snow, and before home gaming consoles and 8-bit microcomputers were a big thing, we had these things called video game arcades. You went to the place and you put coins in the machines. Inevitably your vehicle would die, or the game had a time limit, and then you had to feed in more coins. They were taking from your pocket every time you played. Sometimes you had to buy their (unrefundable) tokens to work the machines.

If I had gone into one of those places and proceeded to play while simultaneously voicing loudly to everyone within range that the proprietors were a bunch of malicious crooks and shakedown merchants, I'd have been, in escalating order:

1) Asked to leave.

2) Thrown out.

3) Told not to return. 

...regardless of how many of their unrefundable tokens I still had in my pocket or how much I had previously spent there.

My only criticism is that comparably few of us are playing this in public, but instead in our own personal space(s). What we do behind closed doors is our prerogative and, much to many peoples’ surprise, talking and posting on the internet is very similar to what we would say and how we would act behind closed doors. It might be a public forum, but we are still physically in our personal space, and will act like it. It’s not that big a shock, or shouldn’t be, that people might become mouthy about certain topics like you literally just insulted them within their own homes. 
 

Don’t know if that makes sense, I’ll try to reword it if need be. 

[Gillhunter]

When I was a lad they didn't have video arcades. I assume that you may have had a favorite video game. Did the company that made or owned it change how it operated every few weeks?

That's what upsets more than a few people.

I'm sure I'm probably not in your "good graces" and that doesn't bother me a bit.

By the way, I love the game and play it nearly every day. I just don't agree with every decision made by WOWs.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Gillhunter

[Capt_Kremenski]

I just love the start of this post.

I had just turned a teenager when the arcades started to appear - the dad of a lad in my class owned an arcade in Palmers green, North London.

Every day me and several classmates would frequent this emporium of new found fun, pockets bulging with 10p pieces.

Battlezone, Phoenix, Defender and of course the all time classic Space invaders! Pocketsfull of 10p's disappeared faster than a knife fight in a phone booth.

 

On topic -

 

It may be just me but I'm sure this is why they closed the forum.

Since the forum shutdown missions have become stupid, money grabbing is out of hand and apart from the pathetic platform they call Discord there is nowhere to complain about it.

 

 

 

 

 

[That WoT Player]

10 minutes ago, WildSide said:

This isn't 1877 Ensign, and it's a different business world out there... I will happily continue to criticize WG, and other companies that make gambling a core part of their games, and WG or any other company that goes down that path will never see a penny from me, ever, while companies that put out great games with ZERO paid gambling mechanics will get my rather large gaming budget. When WG disappears, I won't shed a tear, but in the meantime I'll play for free.🤣

I’m pretty sure he implied that we can criticize WG and their monetization practices, but we can also be civil while doing it. 

[Asym]

53 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Back when I was a lad, and had to walk uphill both directions to and from school in the snow, and before home gaming consoles and 8-bit microcomputers were a big thing, we had these things called video game arcades. You went to the place and you put coins in the machines. Inevitably your vehicle would die, or the game had a time limit, and then you had to feed in more coins. They were taking from your pocket every time you played. Sometimes you had to buy their (unrefundable) tokens to work the machines.

If I had gone into one of those places and proceeded to play while simultaneously voicing loudly to everyone within range that the proprietors were a bunch of malicious crooks and shakedown merchants, I'd have been, in escalating order:

1) Asked to leave.

2) Thrown out.

3) Told not to return. 

...regardless of how many of their unrefundable tokens I still had in my pocket or how much I had previously spent there.

If I'm polite, quiet and infrequent in my criticisms of WG's "greedy, money-hungry ways", and tend to react harshly to those who are less polite, quiet and infrequent, maybe it's because I remember a time when the gaming companies took your money just for the privilege of playing, getting the game changed because you didn't like the way it played was simply not on the cards, and repeatedly insulting and libelling the people who provided you the opportunity to play was likely to get you locked out. 

Now if you want to point at something specific and say "This is not a good bargain because...", chances are I'll say "Nope, I'm not buying that either, and for the same reason." But dragging out the malicious-motives argument isn't going to find you in my good graces, especially with regard to content that either doesn't have to be paid for or can't be bought at any price.

I hear what you say and if that works for you, cool beans mate.  I will voice my opinions and they simply don't care. 

But, we should keep it civil and try to focus on the root causes and the effects to your expectations.  

[Admiral_Karasu]

1 hour ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Back when I was a lad, and had to walk uphill both directions to and from school in the snow, and before home gaming consoles and 8-bit microcomputers were a big thing, we had these things called video game arcades. You went to the place and you put coins in the machines. Inevitably your vehicle would die, or the game had a time limit, and then you had to feed in more coins. They were taking from your pocket every time you played. Sometimes you had to buy their (unrefundable) tokens to work the machines.

If I had gone into one of those places and proceeded to play while simultaneously voicing loudly to everyone within range that the proprietors were a bunch of malicious crooks and shakedown merchants, I'd have been, in escalating order:

1) Asked to leave.

2) Thrown out.

3) Told not to return. 

...regardless of how many of their unrefundable tokens I still had in my pocket or how much I had previously spent there.

 

 

If I'm polite, quiet and infrequent in my criticisms of WG's "greedy, money-hungry ways", and tend to react harshly to those who are less polite, quiet and infrequent, maybe it's because I remember a time when the gaming companies took your money just for the privilege of playing, getting the game changed because you didn't like the way it played was simply not on the cards, and repeatedly insulting and libelling the people who provided you the opportunity to play was likely to get you locked out. 

Now if you want to point at something specific and say "This is not a good bargain because...", chances are I'll say "Nope, I'm not buying that either, and for the same reason." But dragging out the malicious-motives argument isn't going to find you in my good graces, especially with regard to content that either doesn't have to be paid for or can't be bought at any price.

 

That was probably also the time when you could get your motorcycle professionally repaired for one dollar, the time when people actually took pride in their work and not just your money.

[Paladin1954]

Respect is earned, not expected. In the past 3 years WeeGee has done little to earn any at all. Hybrids, subs, the gutting of the ingame economy and the increasing monetization of the game. Back in the day your could buy a new premium ship as a standalone. Now they're only available as bloated, overpriced Admiral packs. As long as they keep treating the playerbase like a bunch of peasants I'll keep expressing my opinion

[Type_93]

@Ensign Cthulhu I share your point of view on WG. You just have to accept the fact that some people aren’t happy unless they are complaining about something. Unfortunately an online forum draws in those people like drunks to a Waffle House after 2am. 

[MBT808]

1 hour ago, WildSide said:

I met many WG employees and was always friendly with them, but WG as a company doesn't deserve much civility after all the lies and predatory mechanics they have fostered on us. Sure, we can be civil, but we most definitely don't have to be, and ultimate it doesn't make a lick of difference, WG will do what they want, they have never listened to the people that actually play their games. 

Thing is, we have been very civil in the past. Problem is, WG basically walked over us and ignored our feedback, many, many times. They took our good will, dragged it through the mud and wiped their backsides with it. The only time they seem to listen is when we basically riot(and even then, its just half-hearted half steps, they try to do the absolute bare minimum to rectify things). To be honest, WG do not deserve civility from us when they've demonstrated complete disregard for the community and treat us like we're the enemy at times.

We all want the game to be better, but if WG won't listen to reason, what else do we have?

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, Paladin1954 said:

Respect is earned, not expected. In the past 3 years WeeGee has done little to earn any at all. Hybrids, subs, the gutting of the ingame economy and the increasing monetization of the game. Back in the day your could buy a new premium ship as a standalone. Now they're only available as bloated, overpriced Admiral packs. As long as they keep treating the playerbase like a bunch of peasants I'll keep expressing my opinion

WG has certainly earned some respect over the years...the trouble for them is that it is the wrong kind of respect.

58 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

@Ensign Cthulhu I share your point of view on WG. You just have to accept the fact that some people aren’t happy unless they are complaining about something. Unfortunately an online forum draws in those people like drunks to a Waffle House after 2am. 

Ad hominem.

[Frostbow]

4 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

But dragging out the malicious-motives argument isn't going to find you in my good graces, especially with regard to content that either doesn't have to be paid for or can't be bought at any price.

In December 2020, it was discovered that contrary to what Wargaming was advertising, their Santa Containers were designed/programmed/weighted to give out the Tier VI Makarov. The hidden mechanics were increasingly seen in effect by players worldwide, as they open their purchased containers, on top of what big name streamers were doing.

Players, understandably, went to the Forum to share the news, discuss how scummy the whole thing was, and criticize the latest episode of Wargaming's malicious mechanic.

You disagreed with the posts, telling everyone in the Forum that it was all fair, that Wargaming was not in error, and that a single instance of not receiving a 'free' Makarov would entirely invalidate the criticism. 

A few days later, you yourself admitted that you also received the Makarov. 

[pepe_trueno]

4 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Back when I was a lad, and had to walk uphill both directions to and from school in the snow, and before home gaming consoles and 8-bit microcomputers were a big thing, we had these things called video game arcades. You went to the place and you put coins in the machines. Inevitably your vehicle would die, or the game had a time limit, and then you had to feed in more coins. They were taking from your pocket every time you played. Sometimes you had to buy their (unrefundable) tokens to work the machines.

If I had gone into one of those places and proceeded to play while simultaneously voicing loudly to everyone within range that the proprietors were a bunch of malicious crooks and shakedown merchants, I'd have been, in escalating order:

1) Asked to leave.

2) Thrown out.

3) Told not to return. 

...regardless of how many of their unrefundable tokens I still had in my pocket or how much I had previously spent there.

 

 

If I'm polite, quiet and infrequent in my criticisms of WG's "greedy, money-hungry ways", and tend to react harshly to those who are less polite, quiet and infrequent, maybe it's because I remember a time when the gaming companies took your money just for the privilege of playing, getting the game changed because you didn't like the way it played was simply not on the cards, and repeatedly insulting and libelling the people who provided you the opportunity to play was likely to get you locked out. 

Now if you want to point at something specific and say "This is not a good bargain because...", chances are I'll say "Nope, I'm not buying that either, and for the same reason." But dragging out the malicious-motives argument isn't going to find you in my good graces, especially with regard to content that either doesn't have to be paid for or can't be bought at any price.

 

the difference is that there has been a big change in video game development philosophy

old video game development philosophy: lets make a great game that is fun and engaging so people spread the word and we sell more copies or in case of arcade they spend more time and money in them

 

modern video game development philosophy: We first lure the players with things like free to play, eye candy or the promise of great gameplay and once they are in the game will resort to all kind of predatory mechanics  to encourage the player to spend money.

Modern philosophy is all about pushing the player to the edge between fun and frustration where the company can make the most money from the player without the player quitting.

[Frostbow]

4 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

isn't going to find you in my good graces

Players have the right to critique Wargaming when needed. 

They do not need to consider your 'good graces' at any point in time. Nor do they need to consider anyone's 'good graces' before speaking out.

This is a game, a business. This is not your kingdom. I suggest you take a realistic outlook, instead of attacking posts criticizing Wargaming.

[Andrewbassg]

5 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Back...

This is a good, quality post. A reminder, a differing opinion and that is always a good thing. I grew up in a society where such ( as differing ) opinions were actively  (and harshly) suppressed. And I saw what that did to both individuals and to the country, even years after. The truth always trumps comfy feelings.

  I never thought, nor I do now that you have ulterior motives, other than your personal ones.

That being said a) here we are ALL peers and here are no fights to win ( on the official forums was a.....lets say slim chance that they would listen, so it made sense)

                           b) we are here for the good stuff, discussions aka having fun.                        

We all are more with more and less with less.

 

Regarding Wedgie....... I'm gonna give credit when is due and not when .... is not. My primary concern is about the game, its quality its health and not al least its community. Not Wedgie. in fact I could care less. But IF they would take the right steps ,I would consider supporting them, as I did in the past.

Now, truth to be told bashing Wedgie could be fun 🙂  and that's their own making.  Not listening, mokusatsu-ing around, yadda yadda, all contributed to this. So.......I'm not gonna feel sorry for them, nor guilty for having some 🙂 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Verblonde]

6 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

the malicious-motives argument

My personal view is - generally - that WG are simply in it to make as much money as possible (quelle surprise - they're a commercial company), and that is their primary motive.

Where they come a cropper (IMO) is that much of their methodology is flat-out unscrupulous. This deserves to be called out when it crosses a line, and I'm not going to stop doing that.

Sure, we can personally all just not buy whatever thing it may be this week, but WG's methodology is (as is well-known) deliberately designed to suck in as many folk as possible, even where a bunch of them should know better. This is hardly unique to WG though. This entire approach is pretty pernicious.

TL;DR in the case of WG (but it applies to much of the video game industry too), what can easily look (and sound, given some of their previous comms fiascos) like malice is just good old-fashioned greed with - so far - not enough legal restraint.

[Guest]

Well, WG is a business and businesses don't exist to make you happy, they exist to make money. I never really cared how they made that money and never thought they were money grubbing. Don't like a certain event...don't participate, you can still play the game without participating in every event they out there. Funny part is many of the complainers are supposedly grown up adults. They spend money on stuff knowing full well that the odds are they won't "win" whatever non fungible trinket being offered then complain when they spend too much and don't win. Like your REALLY need some imaginary Japanese battleship or your enjoyment of the game will be nill. Grown up and take responsibility for your own actions, no one is forcing you to spend a dime on this game.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

7 minutes ago, Kalishnikat said:

I never really cared how they made that money

I do... especially when it is done in unethical ways. WG has earned my  respect with literal years of unethical behavior.

The rest of your post seems ad hominem.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Daniel_Allan_Clark

[AdmiralThunder]

50 minutes ago, Kalishnikat said:

Well, WG is a business and businesses don't exist to make you happy, they exist to make money. I never really cared how they made that money and never thought they were money grubbing. Don't like a certain event...don't participate, you can still play the game without participating in every event they out there. Funny part is many of the complainers are supposedly grown up adults. They spend money on stuff knowing full well that the odds are they won't "win" whatever non fungible trinket being offered then complain when they spend too much and don't win. Like your REALLY need some imaginary Japanese battleship or your enjoyment of the game will be nill. Grown up and take responsibility for your own actions, no one is forcing you to spend a dime on this game.

If you (not you specific just any player - so a general "you") truly care about the game and want it to last for a LONG time you should care how the parent company does things and treats its players. Otherwise, you are just along for the ride and you shouldn't get involved in discussions like this as you don't care. For those of us that are heavily invested and do actually care, and want the game to survive long term, we have a right to complain and be concerned when the parent company acts unethically and/or treats us bad.

The truth is WG gets away with a lot of what it does as there is no direct competition for its niche games. If they truly had a real competitor for WOWS and WOT they would have to work a lot harder to retain players or said players would just go to the "other" game. That isn't the case with their content at this time. War Thunder is their biggest competition and they suck as bad or worse than WG with an inferior product on top of that. If they day ever comes when there is a real competitor for the WOWS player base (WOT too) WG will not be able to operate as they have been doing if they want to last longer than 6 months before everyone is gone. 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by AdmiralThunder

[Taylor3006]

6 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

If you (not you specific just any player - so a general "you") truly care about the game and want it to last for a LONG time you should care how the parent company does things and treats its players. Otherwise, you are just along for the ride and you shouldn't get involved in discussions like this as you don't care. For those of us that are heavily invested and do actually care, and want the game to survive long term, we have a right to complain and be concerned when the parent company acts unethically and/or treats us bad.

The truth is WG gets away with a lot of what it does as there is no direct competition for its niche games. If they truly had a real competitor for WOWS and WOT they would have to work a lot harder to retain players or said players would just go to the "other" game. That isn't the case with their content at this time. War Thunder is their biggest competition and they suck as bad or worse than WG with an inferior product on top of that. If they day ever come when there is a real competitor for the WOWS player base (WOT too) WG will not be able to operate as they have been doing if they want to last longer than 6 months before everyone is gone. 

 

Oddly enough, my experience with Wargaming has soured me totally on the FTP, online model for good. Even if someone came up with a superior product, I wouldn't try it. I used to really love PvP games but again what I encountered with WoWS, am done with that too.  Going back to old school gaming where it is just me versus the computer with a game I purchase and that is it. Maybe buy the DLC if offered, who knows. 

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, Kalishnikat said:

......and businesses don't exist to make you happy.

Except, that they are in the business to make us happy. And quite more often than not, they do exactly the opposite.

1 hour ago, Kalishnikat said:

Funny part is many of the complainers are supposedly grown up adults...

And we tend to see thru shenanigans. 🙂 

1 hour ago, Kalishnikat said:

Like your REALLY need some imaginary Japanese battleship or your enjoyment of the game will be nill

And that's what we were telling Wedgie for years. "Easy big guy with the stuffing, coz it hurts the game and you will run out of stuff much sooner and that will also affect  the game".

But.....it seems to be working on the money making side , so Wedgie simply doesn't care.

 

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

58 minutes ago, Taylor3006 said:

Oddly enough, my experience with Wargaming has soured me totally on the FTP, online model for good. Even if someone came up with a superior product, I wouldn't try it. I used to really love PvP games but again what I encountered with WoWS, am done with that too.  Going back to old school gaming where it is just me versus the computer with a game I purchase and that is it. Maybe buy the DLC if offered, who knows. 

Have you tried Star Trek Online?
https://www.playstartrekonline.com/en/

[AdmiralThunder]

1 hour ago, Taylor3006 said:

Oddly enough, my experience with Wargaming has soured me totally on the FTP, online model for good. Even if someone came up with a superior product, I wouldn't try it. I used to really love PvP games but again what I encountered with WoWS, am done with that too.  Going back to old school gaming where it is just me versus the computer with a game I purchase and that is it. Maybe buy the DLC if offered, who knows. 

WOWS is the ONLY game I have ever played that is PVP (tried a Star Wars one once for a few minutes on my XBox and was like no thanks). I have always loved games like COD, MOH, Battleground, Halo, etc... but I only play the scenarios/campaigns and never, ever, played the PVP mode.

The thing is, WOWS is the exact kind of game I am looking for (overall minus the crap they have done to it) and there just isn't anything similar. Man if I could buy a stand alone game like WOWS where it was just me and AI I would be on that like white on rice. The "P" in PVP is what always has turned me off.

[Hugh_Ruka]

11 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Back when I was a lad, and had to walk uphill both directions to and from school in the snow, and before home gaming consoles and 8-bit microcomputers were a big thing, we had these things called video game arcades. You went to the place and you put coins in the machines. Inevitably your vehicle would die, or the game had a time limit, and then you had to feed in more coins. They were taking from your pocket every time you played. Sometimes you had to buy their (unrefundable) tokens to work the machines.

If I had gone into one of those places and proceeded to play while simultaneously voicing loudly to everyone within range that the proprietors were a bunch of malicious crooks and shakedown merchants, I'd have been, in escalating order:

1) Asked to leave.

2) Thrown out.

3) Told not to return. 

...regardless of how many of their unrefundable tokens I still had in my pocket or how much I had previously spent there.

 

 

If I'm polite, quiet and infrequent in my criticisms of WG's "greedy, money-hungry ways", and tend to react harshly to those who are less polite, quiet and infrequent, maybe it's because I remember a time when the gaming companies took your money just for the privilege of playing, getting the game changed because you didn't like the way it played was simply not on the cards, and repeatedly insulting and libelling the people who provided you the opportunity to play was likely to get you locked out. 

Now if you want to point at something specific and say "This is not a good bargain because...", chances are I'll say "Nope, I'm not buying that either, and for the same reason." But dragging out the malicious-motives argument isn't going to find you in my good graces, especially with regard to content that either doesn't have to be paid for or can't be bought at any price.

 

Your comparison to the past misses one critical point: Back then, everybody paid the same price and everybody got the same game to play. The current situation is vastly different. And the motives behind that are I guess fairly obvious, or should be.

But I agree with you on the way some people voice their objections.

 

[majmac]

12 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

You went to the place and you put coins in the machines. Inevitably your vehicle would die, or the game had a time limit, and then you had to feed in more coins. They were taking from your pocket every time you played. Sometimes you had to buy their (unrefundable) tokens to work the machines.

Glad to see that you have War Gaming's back. I am sure they appreciate that.

B.T.W., do you remember the tilt triggers on the arcade games?