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Massive double standards?


Zaydin

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Best example I can think of: Perma-spotted by a DD hiding in stealth in a ship that you can do nothing to flush it out of stealth with? Perfectly fine and a skill issue and you need to git gud.

Spotted by a CV or sub? OMG OP CANCER MUST BE REMOVED!

And the knots people twist themselves into defending perma-spotting DDs and how it is totally different. Go ahead, play a match in a radar or hydro-less ship and tell me how much fun you have being stalked by a DD. It's also why I consider Brisk a worthless/noob trap skill on BBs.

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1 minute ago, Wulf_Ace said:

why dont you try playing DDs and tell me how its going.

with 12 km radars

with 10km radars that last 50 sec

with planes

with subs

with german 3 min hydro with 6km range

So yeah, amazing experience.

Most 12km radar is short duration.

Most ships with 10km radar are incapable of stealth radar.

Turn your AA off; lost track of how many bad DD players I have run into who leave their AA on all the time.

If a sub can see you, you will see him seconds later.

You seriously think hydro is a counter to DDs? And one nations at that? Hydro isn't a counter to DDs, it's an early warning for torpedoes and if you're at a bad angle all it is is an early warning to bend over and kiss your rear goodbye.

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Gets worse in CBs, where theres a maximum of 1 BB means everyone else is a CA, cosplaying as a BB, while cycling hydro and radar.

You saw people make a big deal out of CVs being added, but you don't see anyone complaining about all the CAs.

 

I'm almost ready to post a thread on this meta.

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29 minutes ago, Zaydin said:

Most 12km radar is short duration.

Most ships with 10km radar are incapable of stealth radar.

Turn your AA off; lost track of how many bad DD players I have run into who leave their AA on all the time.

If a sub can see you, you will see him seconds later.

You seriously think hydro is a counter to DDs? And one nations at that? Hydro isn't a counter to DDs, it's an early warning for torpedoes and if you're at a bad angle all it is is an early warning to bend over and kiss your rear goodbye.

ok I wont comment of how bad this thinking is, dont want to insult anybody. Best of luck.

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4 hours ago, Wulf_Ace said:

why dont you try playing DDs and tell me how its going.

with 12 km radars

with 10km radars that last 50 sec

with planes

with subs

with german 3 min hydro with 6km range

So yeah, amazing experience.

DDs are pretty easy to influence matches with...

Im not very good with them and still have a 55% win rate.

Radar and hydro are just as much a counter to DDs as Defensive AA is to planes.

The real point to the OP is that game balance is not a thing in this game. Ships are 'balanced' based around how often they are played...not their actual in game performance.

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Well.. basically if you were asking me a lot of things would have to be changed, including concealment and spotting mechanics overall. Currently, anyone trying to play a cruiser in a battle where they are being permaspotted by a DD (or a sub) is reduced to being a practice target for enemy long range guns.

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39 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Well.. basically if you were asking me a lot of things would have to be changed, including concealment and spotting mechanics overall. Currently, anyone trying to play a cruiser in a battle where they are being permaspotted by a DD (or a sub) is reduced to being a practice target for enemy long range guns.

Indeed. The concealment system is a major problem for balancing for a lot of reasons.

I'd prefer that for the next rework...

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5 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Best example I can think of: Perma-spotted by a DD hiding in stealth in a ship that you can do nothing to flush it out of stealth with? Perfectly fine and a skill issue and you need to git gud.

Spotted by a CV or sub? OMG OP CANCER MUST BE REMOVED!

And the knots people twist themselves into defending perma-spotting DDs and how it is totally different. Go ahead, play a match in a radar or hydro-less ship and tell me how much fun you have being stalked by a DD. It's also why I consider Brisk a worthless/noob trap skill on BBs.

What’s the point here? 

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5 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Best example I can think of: Perma-spotted by a DD hiding in stealth in a ship that you can do nothing to flush it out of stealth with? Perfectly fine and a skill issue and you need to git gud.

Spotted by a CV or sub? OMG OP CANCER MUST BE REMOVED!

And the knots people twist themselves into defending perma-spotting DDs and how it is totally different. Go ahead, play a match in a radar or hydro-less ship and tell me how much fun you have being stalked by a DD. It's also why I consider Brisk a worthless/noob trap skill on BBs.

A double standard or "it's simply a game..."   I hate to break it to everyone:  it's just a young child cooperative shooter....  No more and no less.

What we "experience" is called "dissonance".....  In this case, "Cognitive Dissonance in Technology Adoption" and there are some great papers to read should you want more information.  Radar at the Cruiser Line Split is where and when this game took a turn and it is the root cause loci. 

And, when get called/paid to play scholar on occasion, it's called "adaptive friction".....which, is a measurable form of Cultural Dissonance.   Sigh, let's ride this wave and have a Margaritaville moment (gosh, he was really a neat performer)....   Anyone figure out the "wave" reference.....any process/systems scholars or PM types out there....  

It's getting lonely not having any spirited discussions anymore........sigh.

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6 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Best example I can think of: Perma-spotted by a DD hiding in stealth in a ship that you can do nothing to flush it out of stealth with? Perfectly fine and a skill issue and you need to git gud.

Spotted by a CV or sub? OMG OP CANCER MUST BE REMOVED!

And the knots people twist themselves into defending perma-spotting DDs and how it is totally different. Go ahead, play a match in a radar or hydro-less ship and tell me how much fun you have being stalked by a DD. It's also why I consider Brisk a worthless/noob trap skill on BBs.

Destroyers risk more than subs and CVs.  Their overall survivability is terrible because of it.  It's a powerful ship type, make no mistake, and one of the most influential on winning after aircraft carriers.

But the differences are:

  • Carriers risk little to nothing to keep ships spotted.
  • Submarines have more readily available escape vectors when spotted and are harder to detect.

As a battleship player, I have a much better chance of successfully engaging a destroyer than a submarine or carrier.  It's not even a contest.

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6 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Best example I can think of: Perma-spotted by a DD hiding in stealth in a ship that you can do nothing to flush it out of stealth with? Perfectly fine and a skill issue and you need to git gud.

Spotted by a CV or sub? OMG OP CANCER MUST BE REMOVED!

And the knots people twist themselves into defending perma-spotting DDs and how it is totally different. Go ahead, play a match in a radar or hydro-less ship and tell me how much fun you have being stalked by a DD. It's also why I consider Brisk a worthless/noob trap skill on BBs.

 

Perhaps it might help to make a proposal of how a beneficial change could be made, and then see if that meets similar standards.  Is being spotted by a CVs planes as dangerous to the CV as being spotted by a DD is as dangerous for the DD?  Would the kind of massive changes to the game that would be necessitated by removal of current systems be worth the result?  What do you have in mind that would be an improvement?

 

 

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50 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Destroyers risk more than subs and CVs.  Their overall survivability is terrible because of it.  It's a powerful ship type, make no mistake, and one of the most influential on winning after aircraft carriers.

But the differences are:

  • Carriers risk little to nothing to keep ships spotted.
  • Submarines have more readily available escape vectors when spotted and are harder to detect.

As a battleship player, I have a much better chance of successfully engaging a destroyer than a submarine or carrier.  It's not even a contest.

100% this.

As a CV 'main', my ability to spot is unparalleled...and makes me laugh when people claim DDs primary job is spotter in a match with a CV.

The planes are so meta breaking that a game with CVs vs a game without is almost entirely different for each ship class.

I prefer having planes in my matches...but I can see how others would not.

For me, I remain hopeful that WG will someday allow controllable fighters so plane spotting has some actual counters...

...but we haven't heard anything like moving in that direction lately.

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7 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Best example I can think of: Perma-spotted by a DD hiding in stealth in a ship that you can do nothing to flush it out of stealth with? Perfectly fine and a skill issue and you need to git gud.

Spotted by a CV or sub? OMG OP CANCER MUST BE REMOVED!

And the knots people twist themselves into defending perma-spotting DDs and how it is totally different. Go ahead, play a match in a radar or hydro-less ship and tell me how much fun you have being stalked by a DD. It's also why I consider Brisk a worthless/noob trap skill on BBs.

Agree (except for Brisk, but we can agree to differ).

Which, as you well know, I frequently don't when it comes to the things you say.

Who are you, and what have you done with the real Zaydin? 😜

(That being said, I might hate being the Colorado that's being stalked by the Kagero, so to speak, but the flipside is that I've been the Kagero enough times that I can live with it. You hate being stalked or oppressed by a particular ship type? Play that type.)

Edited by Ensign Cthulhu
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7 hours ago, Zaydin said:

It's also why I consider Brisk a worthless/noob trap skill on BBs.

I have to disagree here. Even on something like the slow US BBs its great for being able to get back into a fight after a flank is won. But when you also start to consider ships with super low concealment down in the 10-12km range with secondaries that also reach that far... well at that point Brisk is letting you get into range to rain on people. And if its a destroyer that slows that ship down you'd better be praying that their allies don't have a lovely 12km Russian radar ready to light the DD up to get absolutely rained on.

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8 minutes ago, Kynami said:

I have to disagree here.

I can see why he calls it a noob trap, because it's not automatically going to make everything better. Colorado is not going to behave like Jean Bart all of a sudden, for example, and anyone who expects that is going to be disappointed. 

I acknowledge the viewpoint that the Standards need all the knots they can get, but the expectations do need to be tempered with reality. 

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2 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Destroyers risk more than subs and CVs.  Their overall survivability is terrible because of it.  It's a powerful ship type, make no mistake, and one of the most influential on winning after aircraft carriers.

But the differences are:

  • Carriers risk little to nothing to keep ships spotted.
  • Submarines have more readily available escape vectors when spotted and are harder to detect.

As a battleship player, I have a much better chance of successfully engaging a destroyer than a submarine or carrier.  It's not even a contest.

Well summed up.
I play DDs a lot. I like them (they don't like me a lot, though... 🙂).

As far as my little experience extends, the longer a DD stays in the game, the more dangerous it gets.
But it's definitely HARD to survive that long sometimes, for, as soon as you're spotted, you can be sure all reds in range will shoot at you. (Even if they should not sometimes).


The main problem is that most of your occasional partners mostly do not understand that some target have a greater priority than others (radar ships for instance).
Playing DDs, planes are not my main problem since most of CV players tend to try and make frags/damage, (thus not really helping their team) instead of getting rid of the perma-spotters.


Personnal opinion of course and highly arguabl, since am definitely not a great player.

PS:  english not my language, please be indulgent...

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10 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Best example I can think of: Perma-spotted by a DD hiding in stealth in a ship that you can do nothing to flush it out of stealth with? Perfectly fine and a skill issue and you need to git gud.

 

Yes. And yes. Meaning yes there are players of this game who have double standards  And yes in that example  you need to git gud.

10 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Spotted by a CV or sub? OMG OP CANCER MUST BE REMOVED!

You mean remove Cv spotting? Oh yes please gibb....

10 hours ago, Zaydin said:

And the knots people twist themselves into defending perma-spotting DDs and how it is totally different

Well....it is totally different. i can try to do somethin' 'bout 'em lolibotes, but i can do exactly jack 'bout 'em flyin' monkes. 

 

10 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Go ahead, play a match in a radar or hydro-less ship

Sejong says hi from  T9 ranked. image.gif.e6c02d71baba3f27e944d9eb24a533

Edited by Andrewbassg
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CV's and subs are cancer and need to be removed!

Some DD's are cancer too and need to be removed. (Mostly recent ones)   

That said you can cordon off dd's and identify their threat direction and minimize damage until proper counter ships arrive.   With cv's and subs there is none of that.   The only thing you might get to help is a sub running anti sub.

Edited by WES_HoundDog
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11 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Best example I can think of: Perma-spotted by a DD hiding in stealth in a ship that you can do nothing to flush it out of stealth with? Perfectly fine and a skill issue and you need to git gud.

Spotted by a CV or sub? OMG OP CANCER MUST BE REMOVED!

And the knots people twist themselves into defending perma-spotting DDs and how it is totally different. Go ahead, play a match in a radar or hydro-less ship and tell me how much fun you have being stalked by a DD. It's also why I consider Brisk a worthless/noob trap skill on BBs.

The difference is the DD risks more as LWM said, I can island play and sometimes force the DD to reveal himself and maybe kill him for it. Subs have an easier way to get out and CVs are only risking their ordinance.

So yeah, to some extent it is a skill issue.

If you're not good enough to make that happen, they will all kill you equally and you won't realize the additional BS layered on top of the other encounter type, because that level is not relevant to what you see and are able to deal with in most matches.

That's not defending DDs, that's recognizing 'this has issues but it's within a workable zone of balance, and these other things are not'.

And btw, even CVs and subs are mostly ok as you encounter them in this game, because the practical reality is the average player in them is so bad he can't reliably kill you with them even with all of their stacked crutches put there to elevate that sort of player. WG tried to idiot-proof those classes, but the world makes better idiots.

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3 hours ago, Silence_CN said:

As far as my little experience extends, the longer a DD stays in the game, the more dangerous it gets.

 

As a general rule of thumb, I agree. However, curiously enough I just noticed that my single solitary Solo Warrior achievement I ever got was not earned when I played a DD, but instead I got it while playing

Spoiler

the Mighty Yamato.

 

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12 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Best example I can think of: Perma-spotted by a DD hiding in stealth in a ship that you can do nothing to flush it out of stealth with? Perfectly fine and a skill issue and you need to git gud.

Spotted by a CV or sub? OMG OP CANCER MUST BE REMOVED!

And the knots people twist themselves into defending perma-spotting DDs and how it is totally different. Go ahead, play a match in a radar or hydro-less ship and tell me how much fun you have being stalked by a DD. It's also why I consider Brisk a worthless/noob trap skill on BBs.

I main dds, in order for me to do a fraction of the no counterplay cv and subs experience with little effort i first have to:

Kill enemy dds, neutralize enemy radars, kill hydro ships, position perfectly, and have enough HP to either gun you down, or get lucky with torps. 

Torps arent direct damage, they are more area denial at the higher skill levels. 

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13 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Best example I can think of: Perma-spotted by a DD hiding in stealth in a ship that you can do nothing to flush it out of stealth with? Perfectly fine and a skill issue and you need to git gud.

Spotted by a CV or sub? OMG OP CANCER MUST BE REMOVED!

And the knots people twist themselves into defending perma-spotting DDs and how it is totally different. Go ahead, play a match in a radar or hydro-less ship and tell me how much fun you have being stalked by a DD. It's also why I consider Brisk a worthless/noob trap skill on BBs.

It takes skill to stay beyond detection range in a DD. A CV and sub don't take that same skill. A DD slips up and get spotted and gets hit. Yeah..CV..not so much huh? Just sit at the back of the map and immune from attack while you attack other players.

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3 hours ago, Kalishnikat said:

It takes skill to stay beyond detection range in a DD. A CV and sub don't take that same skill. A DD slips up and get spotted and gets hit. Yeah..CV..not so much huh? Just sit at the back of the map and immune from attack while you attack other players.

When your concealment is around 6km and you are stalking a BB that can be spotted from 14km away or a cruiser that can be seen from 12, how exactly is it hard to avoid being spotted? The only real risks are Des Moines, San Martins, Brisbanes and Radar Minos since their radar range is just slightly smaller than their detection radius so if they get spotted they can be reasonably certain a DD is spotting them.

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