Vanguard

[SoshiSone]

Been eyeing her for two years now.  Took the plunge with my 50% pink coupon.

Having played Warspite, QE, Hood, DoY, and KGV...it seems like a cool T8 jump.  interesting play style.  Top tier it can dictated engagements very well.  Mid tier, I've felt good play its stengths.  Bottom tier...well, that's a tough play.  Match pretty much dictates the rules.  But given you can print a new one over the course of five repair parties... and it has good concealment...and running speed...hiding and returning can work.

And that 25 second reload is crazy, espeically at tier.

Edited September 18, 2023 by SoshiSone

[Guest]

I did well with her while kiting. Yeah the reload helps make up for the lack of gun numbers.

[Admiral_Karasu]

The Vanguard is a strange one, for many it's a ship they want to like but.... Originally, my thoughts were that the ship was better than its reputation. Since those days, of course, WG has changed the meta considerably. Any ship performance related experience I have is obsolete, and I don't even really play anything outside of the operations so I can't comment on any random etc. battle meta.

[Wulf_Ace]

43 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

The Vanguard is a strange one, for many it's a ship they want to like but.... Originally, my thoughts were that the ship was better than its reputation. Since those days, of course, WG has changed the meta considerably. Any ship performance related experience I have is obsolete, and I don't even really play anything outside of the operations so I can't comment on any random etc. battle meta.

well her reputation is that it was too late in the war to see any action

[Admiral_Karasu]

45 minutes ago, Wulf_Ace said:

well her reputation is that it was too late in the war to see any action

Well, yes, but I was referring more to the ingame reputation.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, Wulf_Ace said:

well her reputation is that it was too late in the war to see any action

In Exercise Mariner in the 50s, she was steaming strongly through seas that left the Iowas wallowing. If sea states were ever simulated in WOWS, she'd be the strongest battleship in the game in bad weather, able to run away from anything or run anything down. 

[Admiral_Karasu]

11 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

In Exercise Mariner in the 50s, she was steaming strongly through seas that left the Iowas wallowing. If sea states were ever simulated in WOWS, she'd be the strongest battleship in the game in bad weather, able to run away from anything or run anything down. 

And here she is... at tier 8, and most of the BB's placed higher are paper ships and pipedreams only.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

25 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

And here she is... at tier 8, and most of the BB's placed higher are paper ships and pipedreams only.

Of the ones that are not:

Built in steel and fought: Yamato, Musashi, Iowa, Missouri, Jean Bart (though she's contentious, since only her in-game gimmicks separate her from her T8 sister, Richelieu).

Begun, halted and eventually scrapped unfinished: Lion, and IIRC Sovetsky Soyuz (correct me if I'm wrong on that second one).

Barely begun (literally a few plates cut before the Washington Treaty forced her cancellation): T9 Duncan (the G3 battlecruisers).

Ordered, then cancelled due to resource-priority issues (even the Americans couldn't do everything): Montana.

 

[Admiral_Karasu]

6 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Of the ones that are not:

Built in steel and fought: Yamato, Musashi, Iowa, Missouri, Jean Bart (though she's contentious, since only her in-game gimmicks separate her from her T8 sister, Richelieu).

Begun, halted and eventually scrapped unfinished: Lion, and IIRC Sovetsky Soyuz (correct me if I'm wrong on that second one).

Barely begun (literally a few plates cut before the Washington Treaty forced her cancellation): T9 Duncan (the G3 battlecruisers).

Ordered, then cancelled due to resource-priority issues (even the Americans couldn't do everything): Montana.

 

That would give us something like... nine-ish BB's, though Duncan would be a battlecruiser, technically, and about twenty years older, technically... and then of course, there's also some refits that could be taken into account.

 

[Ensign Cthulhu]

9 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

That would give us something like... nine-ish BB's, though Duncan would be a battlecruiser, technically, and about twenty years older, technically... and then of course, there's also some refits that could be taken into account.

 

There was a hilarious bet between the constructors over whether the G3s would ever reach their design speed of 32 knots, which was very fast for a 16 inch gunned battleship (and the G3s were only battlecruisers in relation to the planned 18 inch gunned N3, i.e. St Vincent; in fact, their protection was pretty good).  Of course that was rendered moot by cancellation. IIRC only the Iowas were faster, and they were a much later design. 

[AdmiralThunder]

I love Vanguard and have a 100% WR in it in Randoms. Of course I have only played it 1 game there so...LOL.

I bought it when it 1st came out and was being blasted for being horrible. I thought it was decent enough. It isn't great and for sure it isn't OP but it is better than what people were saying about it IMHO.

Decent concealment, amazing rudder (it wiggles around like a Cruiser almost), fairly tanky if you know how to angle (but don't show that side it's all citadel), and average speed. The 25 sec reload and base 30 sec turret traverse are great. It also has a lot of HP for a T8 BB. It's not a bad ship at all.

For me the glaring issues outside of the Citadel being so much of a liability are the horrendously poor rear turret angles and main gun quirks:

• The super fast rudder shift (for a BB) does allow you, with planning, to swing the rear around to use the rear guns and then swing it back before you get shot at which helps with that issue (but don't mess the timing up or you will pay dearly for it). Lots of times though you end up heavily angled and bow in, and swinging the butt around is NOT an option, so you are only able to fire the front 4 guns and that puts you at a big disadvantage vs other BB's that can fire 6 to 8 front guns.
• The other issue is the main guns themselves; and I don't mean the limited overmatch being just 381MM or even just having 8 guns. Despite it's very good 2.0 sigma I find the guns to be frustratingly and far too frequently wonky. When they are working as intended they will do the job very well if you do yours but far too often the shells go everywhere BUT where you aim and with such a good sigma (and US BB dispersion) it really bugs me. The guns don't behave as they should accuracy wise far too often (almost reminds me of French and Italian accuracy issues). The AP also seems lacking in performance. I mean it has great HE so you can default to that like most BRN BB's can but I like to have AP I can call on and have it deal the pain when I do. Vanguard seems to lack there.

Overall I like the ship though. No gimmicks and funny buttons. Just a basic and simple ship that can get the job done for you.

Edited September 18, 2023 by AdmiralThunder

[Nevermore135]

1 hour ago, AdmiralThunder said:

with such a good sigma (and US BB dispersion)

Vanguard doesn’t have standard US/UK/German BB dispersion. She utilizes the same improved UK/US horizontal dispersion curve as Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Hood, and Ohio.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Nevermore135

[AdmiralThunder]

19 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

Vanguard doesn’t have standard US/UK/German BB dispersion. She utilizes the same improved UK/US horizontal dispersion curve as Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Hood, and Ohio.

Then that makes it even more frustrating and disappointing

[Tricericon]

3 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Of the ones that are not:

Built in steel and fought: Yamato, Musashi, Iowa, Missouri, Jean Bart (though she's contentious, since only her in-game gimmicks separate her from her T8 sister, Richelieu).

Begun, halted and eventually scrapped unfinished: Lion, and IIRC Sovetsky Soyuz (correct me if I'm wrong on that second one).

Barely begun (literally a few plates cut before the Washington Treaty forced her cancellation): T9 Duncan (the G3 battlecruisers).

Ordered, then cancelled due to resource-priority issues (even the Americans couldn't do everything): Montana.

 

Minnesota is a fake refit of the 1920 South Dakota class (with the wrong guns IIRC, oh well, it's WG). SD20 is in a similar boat to G3 as a WNT casualty, but got somewhat closer to completion. She belongs somewhere between Duncan and Lion on your list.

Steel was cut and keels were laid for the H-39 (close enough to FDG), but little more than that. Freddie probably belongs next to Duncan.

The Number 13 BC (upcoming "Adatara" is a variant) was officially ordered but never laid down. Adatara could be argued to be in a similar place to Montana.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Tricericon
Clarity

[Ensign Cthulhu]

8 minutes ago, Tricericon said:

Minnesota is a fake refit of the 1920 South Dakota class (with the wrong guns IIRC, oh well, it's WG). SD20 is in a similar boat to G3 as a WNT casualty, but got somewhat closer to completion. She belongs somewhere between Duncan and Lion on your list.

Steel was cut and keels were laid for the H-39 (close enough to FDG), but little more than that. Freddie probably belongs next to Duncan.

The Number 13 BC (upcoming "Adatara" is a variant) was officially ordered but never laid down. Adatara could be argued to be in a similar place to Montana.

Thanks for the extras.

I had a vague hint in my mind of maybe H-39 having been started, but I wasn't sure if it was reliable or a Mulder-like "I want to believe". 

I also wasn't aware that the SD20 class had been started. 

As for things like Minnesota getting the wrong guns, WOWS takes place in a universe already sufficiently removed from our own that I'm willing to handwave such things. I'm less happy with what they gave us for Druid; she was one iteration of the Cruiser-Destroyer concept, but I had expected the ship on the cover of this book:

 

IIRC her guns (three singles) were expected to fire at SIXTY rounds per minute. 

 

 

[Subtle_Octavian]

It's painfully subaverage, has no real special utility. The shells are tricky, as the lose pen badly at range. 

I would only target cruisers with it, the guns are just too mediocre to do serious damage to a battleship without

careful targeting of the bow, stern and superstructure.

It's a struggle to play, like krasny krim, oklahoma, yukon and other underwhelming ships.

[OT2_2]

Purchased her some days ago and are happy. A good looking and deadly ship with very, very accurate guns. I do play her like suggested in this thread and it works out. Unfortunately I can't post pictures of my last Random Battle with her as mid - tier due to limited storage capacity.

Third on the ranking board in total, 2 ships sunk and ca. 100 k damage. Me and my team mate on a "Edinburgh" secured victory as last men standing. Glad that I followed my heart and purchased Vanguard. 

Edited February 18 by OT2_2

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

It has good rudder shift?

I'm a sucker for a battleship with a quick rudder...

[Snargfargle]

3 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

It has good rudder shift?

I'm a sucker for a battleship with a quick rudder...

I have two torpedo lookout skills and fast ruder shift on my Massachusetts. I can usually dodge all but a "shotgun" torpedo spread from a close-in sub. I don't have Priority Target but I pay attention to the ships I'm shooting at and then they fire back, go full left or right rudder and usually dodge most of the incoming shells too. That's why I don't like it when DDs are sailing right next to me for AA support. Not only are they not spotting for me, they usually get in the way when I'm trying to maneuver.

[OT2_2]

On 9/19/2023 at 8:46 AM, Subtle_Octavian said:

I would only target cruisers with it, the guns are just too mediocre to do serious damage to a battleship without

careful targeting of the bow, stern and superstructure.

You are surely much better at this game than me, but my experience is very much different. In yesterday's game I shot a DoY right through the bow at 12 + km and citadelled and subsequently sunk her. The DoY has decent armor protection though. Citadelled a broadside Georgia twice at a range between 16 - 18 km, which then was killed by a teammate without bigger challenges. Same can be said of an Nagato that was harassing some of our cruisers on the right flank. Although Nagato was properly angled I fired three salvos at her in a distance of between 18 - 20 km and made ca. 20 k dmg. All this by just trying to take correct lead. Fancy aiming wasn't included. AP only on these three enemy ships.

Edited February 18 by OT2_2

[BOBTHEBALL]

15 minutes ago, OT2_2 said:

You are surely much better at this game than me, but my experience is very much different. In yesterday's game I shot a DoY right through the bow at 12 + km and citadelled and subsequently sunk her. The DoY has decent armor protection though. Same can be said of an Nagato that was harassing some of our cruisers on the right flank. Although Nagato was properly angled I fired three salvos at her in a distance of between 18 - 20 km and made ca. 20 k dmg. 

You only did good damage because you overmatch them. The feeling of the guns will change when facing tier +8 BBs and some cruisers.

[OT2_2]

31 minutes ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

You only did good damage because you overmatch them. The feeling of the guns will change when facing tier +8 BBs and some cruisers.

If I remember correctly then "Georgia" is T 9, and "Brandenburg", which I killed alongside DoY, is T VIII and well armored in her turtle - back. Didn't know of any overmatch on a "Nagato" at 18 + km. BTW, "Johan de Witt" TIX, and almost sunk, plus "Charles Martell" had nothing to laugh about. But it's just me and was lucky only I assume.

Edited February 18 by OT2_2

[BOBTHEBALL]

15 minutes ago, OT2_2 said:

If I remember correctly then "Georgia" is T 9, and "Brandenburg", which I killed alongside DoY, is T VIII and well armored in her turtle - back. Didn't know of any overmatch on a "Nagato" at 18 + km. BTW, "Johan de Witt" TIX, and almost sunk, plus "Charles Martell" had nothing to laugh about. But it's just me and was lucky only I assume.

You never mentioned Brandenburg in the first post, Georgia was broadside and doesn't have great armour, you did overmatch Nagato (I would check the armour and gun calibre if I were you), Johan sure that was good, Charles Martel you can overmatch.

[OT2_2]

3 minutes ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

You never mentioned Brandenburg

My bad, I didn't think it was important. I only mentioned 2 ships killed and DoY specifically. Thanks for the advice regarding Nagato. I will check it out. 

[BOBTHEBALL]

1 minute ago, OT2_2 said:

My bad, I didn't think it was important. I only mentioned 2 ships killed and DoY specifically. Thanks for the advice regarding Nagato. I will check it out. 

No problem at all, overmatch matters more than we think.