How to play island hopping Cruisers with no islands?

[Jakeshuffle]

I know there's usually a cluster of islands I can go to but if there is a map that has a left or right side almost all open then does everyone play the get Spotted game then run away real quick just with no islands? I know the Colbert is great at being shot but how do I play her, or Des Moines, if I don't have smoke or an island to go to? Should I be completely changing up my position? I'm trying to be better for my poor teammates in Randoms.

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

1 minute ago, Jakeshuffle said:

I know there's usually a cluster of islands I can go to but if there is a map that has a left or right side almost all open then does everyone play the get Spotted game then run away real quick just with no islands? I know the Colbert is great at being shot but how do I play her, or Des Moines, if I don't have smoke or an island to go to? Should I be completely changing up my position? I'm trying to be better for my poor teammates in Randoms.

You take a perma kite position and only shoot whenever you are sure that you are in control of the engagement. You also want to either stand still, be in reverse or at half speed before being shot at as then you can dodge the best.

 

Dodge via propulsion, not steering. 

[ZeuSueZ1337]

8 minutes ago, EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico said:

"(...)Dodge via propulsion, not steering. "

This!

The above is a massively overlooked tactical element for cruisers in general but in open waters in particular.

Many players act under the false assumption that you can "only" avoid being hit by engaging the rudder - the throttle is just as important in almost all aspects.

[Jakeshuffle]

20 minutes ago, EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico said:

Dodge via propulsion, not steering. 

I think I get too close to the no-boat zone because I find I have to turn tail and run a fair bit. Whenever I get that gut reaction to turn should I see if I can just reverse out of there first?

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

1 minute ago, Jakeshuffle said:

I think I get too close to the no-boat zone because I find I have to turn tail and run a fair bit. Whenever I get that gut reaction to turn should I see if I can just reverse out of there first?

You need to judge the future potential situation BEFORE you decide if you can handle even worse outcomes bow in or not.

 

So if you judge Yes, then you need to by your gameplay help to create the situation you predicted that allows you to stay bow in to be able to sustain the predicted outcome.

 

If you judge No, then you need to stay stern in or in kite until you created a situation that allows you to either push back or you have to stay in kite until the game ends. 

 

The goal is always to be able to stay alive until endgame as the earlier you die the less influence you have over the game 

[Jakeshuffle]

2 minutes ago, EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico said:

You need to judge the future potential situation BEFORE you decide if you can handle even worse outcomes bow in or not.

 

 

The goal is always to be able to stay alive until endgame as the earlier you die the less influence you have over the game 

Sounds like I play too reactively instead of proactively still. I can improve my positioning a whole lot, thank you for the tips!

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

15 minutes ago, Jakeshuffle said:

Sounds like I play too reactively instead of proactively still. I can improve my positioning a whole lot, thank you for the tips!

The problem with reactive play is that you leave the first move to the opponent. And usually the one who makes the first moves has not only the initiative but also a positional advantage as they reach positions they can be effective in before you do and therefore prevent you from either reaching those yourself after your reaction or punish you for it which will in turn lead to an uneven hp trade.

[Jakob Knight]

1 hour ago, Jakeshuffle said:

I know there's usually a cluster of islands I can go to but if there is a map that has a left or right side almost all open then does everyone play the get Spotted game then run away real quick just with no islands? I know the Colbert is great at being shot but how do I play her, or Des Moines, if I don't have smoke or an island to go to? Should I be completely changing up my position? I'm trying to be better for my poor teammates in Randoms.

 

If your ship doesn't have smoke, stay close to one that does.  In an open water situation, that's the only terrain you'll get.

 

Alternatively, use your concealment to stay undetected until you get a target you can do enough damage onto to make the damage you'll take in return worth the exchange.

 

Finally, consider using your teammates as terrain.  If your ship can't stand in the main line of battle, put it in a supporting position behind the more important ships and hope the enemy decides you aren't worth diverting fire onto.

 

Having a ship that can make use of islands better than other ships means you will be at a disadvantage if you don't have islands to use.  Accept it and do your best.

[ZeuSueZ1337]

1 hour ago, EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico said:

The goal is always to be able to stay alive until endgame as the earlier you die the less influence you have over the game 

Running the risk of de-railing the OP allow me to challenge this slightly.

 

Surely; don't yol0! Just stop it, if thats what you care for - go play coop, don't ruin if for the rest of us.

 

If however you're in a PvP setting I'll always consider the trade if it comes to that(!)

So; say you're in a Hipper, Mogami or Cleveland in a t8 (ranked, random, _w_) All free obtaineble cruisers each with their own strength and weaknesses, and sticking to the cruiser theme for now. You set steam for an cap with your fellow DD and you manage to eliminate the enemy DD and is now left facing off against the corresponding cruiser. You're within her detection range, and before you can go dark you'll loose the majority of your HP thus rendering you of minor influence the rest of the game because you can get shot out of the water with a BB-gun.

Instead of that outcome I'd much rather go in for the kill even if it costs me my boat in an one for one trade. Your teammate DD is now left to cap and the team as a whole should be in an advantageous postion with - in this example - your cruiser sunk, but with the enemy team down one cruiser and one DD.

The example above is for cruisers but would apply to DD's & BB's with the usual caveats etc. Subs and CV's aren't my kettle of fish so don't extrapolate to those classes.

The goal should - imho - always be to put your team the most advantageous spot to get the win. If I have to sacrifice my ship? So be it (...insert "Jedi" at your own behest)

Edited September 12, 2023 by ZeuSueZ1337

[Jakeshuffle]

7 minutes ago, ZeuSueZ1337 said:

Surely; don't yol0! Just stop it, if thats what you care for - go play coop, don't ruin if for the rest of us.

 

But...but Two Brothers 😞

 

Jokes aside, I appreciate the rest of the advice!

[Admiral_Karasu]

1 minute ago, Jakeshuffle said:

But...but Two Brothers 😞

 

Jokes aside, I appreciate the rest of the advice!

If all else fails then there's always this:

Spoiler

 

 

[ZeuSueZ1337]

1 minute ago, Jakeshuffle said:

But...but Two Brothers 😞

 

Jokes aside, I appreciate the rest of the advice!

Shhhhh.....! Don't tell them. I'm also is like a moth to a flame on that map xD

Anytime!

And @EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico's points on playing proactive versuse reactive is also very much A+ advice.

[Admiral_Karasu]

2 minutes ago, ZeuSueZ1337 said:

Shhhhh.....! Don't tell them. I'm also is like a moth to a flame on that map xD

Anytime!

And @EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico's points on playing proactive versuse reactive is also very much A+ advice.

Yes... proactive is good, but I think a lot of players, myself included, is of the more risk averse type. Wait and see if the enemy makes the first mistake.

[Jakeshuffle]

I have about 8 months of game time under my belt now so...I'm getting there with the understanding and flow of gameplay but I'm slow. My buddy says "I took a calculated risk, and boy am I bad at math".

[ZeuSueZ1337]

8 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

"(...)proactive is good, but I think a lot of players, myself included, is of the more risk averse type. Wait and see if the enemy makes the first mistake."

You're definitely onto something here. However for my part this is highly situational:

• If Im top tier I have no problem opening the engagement forcing my boats advantage onto the enemy's lesser capabilities.
• On the other hand if i'm bottom tier I'll probably lurk around a bit ans see what's what.
• Other factors also might play a role in my approach: CVs? Subs? The amount of radars? Divisions? Etc....

In general I do think that the proactive approach has a higer payoff. But at the same time holds an inherent greater risk. I.e. it's a bit like a glass cannon ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited September 12, 2023 by ZeuSueZ1337

[Admiral_Karasu]

1 minute ago, ZeuSueZ1337 said:

You're definitely onto something here. However for my part this is highly situational:

• If Im top tier I have no problem opening the engagement forcing my boats advantage onto the enemy's lesser capabilities.
• On the other hand if i'm bottom tier I'll probably lurk around a bit ans see what's what.
• Other factors also might play a role in my approach: CVs? Subs? The amount of radars? Divisions? Etc....

In general I do think that the proactive approach has a higer payoff. But at the same time holds an inherent greater risk. I.e. it's a bit like a glass cannon ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Much of who gets the initiative is decided by who spots first. That's generally something you can't influence much, same as the inadequacies of the map or which team you sail with. In effect, your first action will almost always be reactive by default.

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

10 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Much of who gets the initiative is decided by who spots first. That's generally something you can't influence much, same as the inadequacies of the map or which team you sail with. In effect, your first action will almost always be reactive by default.

Let me just add to this that it is indeed entirely possible to completely predict and react to a flank without spotting though it requires very advanced understanding of the game, the enemy players, the given MM lineup and the particular map. It's so deep in fact that it would require a big long guide with tactic map examples to get the understanding across. It's complicated but once you get it it's not

[Kynami]

A lot of it is knowing when to not shoot at all when you are in such a situation. I've had games like that while bottom tiered as a Cleveland and I came in 2nd on the team with a pitiful amount of damage dealt by me to ships... but I had well over a hundred thousand spotting damage. I abused the 9.3km detection range of my cruiser to the hilt. You can still be an absolute pest to larger more powerful ships by dancing around the detection bubble. And in such cases you really only open up to prevent somebody from getting away to heal. Hopefully only trading away a fraction of your health to insure the other guy is out of the game.

Another part of it is letting somebody in a hull better able to take the beating or that is considerably better at speed juking get spotted first. Any shots flung at a Napoli, Marceau, or something equivalent instead of your slower squishy island camper self initially is going to be less impactful generally.

[Otago_F111]

3 hours ago, EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico said:

Let me just add to this that it is indeed entirely possible to completely predict and react to a flank without spotting though it requires very advanced understanding of the game, the enemy players, the given MM lineup and the particular map. It's so deep in fact that it would require a big long guide with tactic map examples to get the understanding across. It's complicated but once you get it it's not

unless you have a crystal ball, Im calling bull excrement on this? there is likely to be some sort of flank but what, who and how many is not predictable at all.

[SunkCostFallacy]

16 minutes ago, Otago_F111 said:

unless you have a crystal ball, Im calling bull excrement on this? there is likely to be some sort of flank but what, who and how many is not predictable at all.

I may be wrong, but I don't think @EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico suggested that it was possible to predict to the extent that you claimed.

While I'm aware that Randoms draws from the largest pool of potential players ... I'd suggest that, given enough games, there's going to be a pattern in how most players react to most maps. If you know that pattern it's not unreasonable to be able to predict the likely initial choices that the enemy team are going to make. 

Amusingly ... the better a player on the enemy team is, the more likely he is to do the optimum thing, and therefore the more predictable he's going to be.

It's the potatoes who are likely to do something unexpected because it's sub-optimal. For example a yolo which spots half your team but results in his early sinking

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

1 hour ago, Otago_F111 said:

unless you have a crystal ball, Im calling bull excrement on this? there is likely to be some sort of flank but what, who and how many is not predictable at all.

Just so you maybe get a better view on why I make the claim and what my experience is in the field as to aid my credibility

I added screenshots showing my most recent solo performances and overall t10+ performance solo as I believe only higher tiers really matter to make my case fully.

 

I can understand why you would call bulls on it but once you figure out all the possibilities and how they will play out it is really not hard to predict and control.

 

[Jakeshuffle]

55 minutes ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

It's the potatoes who are likely to do something unexpected because it's sub-optimal. For example a yolo which spots half your team but results in his early sinking

Oh shucks, no need to talk about me 🙂

 

I'm finding if I can make it through the initial big fight 3-5 minutes in then I can maneuver so much easier and...freer? I don't really care if my teammates are calling me a wuss in-game, I can't help if I'm sinking.

[EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico]

1 minute ago, Jakeshuffle said:

I can't help if I'm sinking

That is the right mindset to have.

While it is important to contribute to early influence you have about 0 influence after you die. So play conservative in the beginning unless a clear chance to do big things presents itself.

[Jakeshuffle]

4 minutes ago, EXEC_HYMNE_Ar_tonelico said:

unless a clear chance to do big things presents itself.

Just caught a Cleveland broadside in my last match. Definitely worth breaking concealment lol

[Wolfswetpaws]

6 hours ago, ZeuSueZ1337 said:

Surely; don't yol0! 

::: Sails in a Battleship while supporting my DD's by remaining only a couple of km behind them, then passes them and rams an enemy DD hiding in smoke. :::
Heck yeah I do!
I prefer to "locate, close-with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver".  🙂 

If that "taking initiative" behavior is too much for my team-mates, then let the chips fall where they may.
I prefer to un-balance or surprise the opposition by doing the un-conventional.
Red-team wants to pop-smoke and hide inside while thinking they're safe from being proximity detected?  Well, I don't mind charging their position.  🙂 
Have I been roasted alive while being the focus of opposing gunfire and sunk quickly while conducting reconnaisance in force?  Yes, I have, more than once.

This sort of lively game play is admittedly risky and with the risks sometimes there are rewards when I sink some red-team ships and clear a path for my team.

If you want to stay afloat more consistently, then follow some of the advice listed above my post.  🙂
If you want lively game play that risks an early sinking but rewards one with invigorating stimulation, then lead the charges!  🙂