It has gotten way too easy to get to tier 10

[Zaydin]

Too many people who have no idea what they are doing are just rushing to tier 10 and end up being massive liabilities to their team. Combine that with a non-functional matchmaker and blowouts are getting more and more common.

When I started playing in CBT and the transition to Open Beta and then Live, it took me two years to get my first tier 10. Now you can slam a line out to tier 10 in a week or two, maybe less, and thus they don't learn how to play their ships or how to play at high tiers.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Zaydin

[Gillhunter]

Agreed. Also when the economy changed so you can't earn daily's with low tier ships it wrecked any incentive to play low tiers. You may remember all the forum posts complaining about players seal clubbing in the low tiers. I could never figure out the difference between a player with a couple of hundred battles getting it handed to them at tier 3 as opposed to getting it handed to them at tier 10. 

That's why I only play PvE any more.

[I_cant_Swim_]

Disagree, with qualification. For Coop, it's absolutely fine. Liabilities to the team are almost unheard of. I have nothing against going as fast as possible up to tier X, but I keep most games PvE. Almost all my randoms are lower tier, V or so. So for PvP I would agree. I'll move up when I'm ready.

Anyway, I think a major reason randoms work poorly with or even without less experienced players is the lack of coordinated team effort. Providing bigger incentives to join in balanced divs might help. So too incentives to retain divs over several matches, which may force encourage  (less experienced) players to adapt and learn.

[Zaydin]

31 minutes ago, I_cant_Swim_ said:

Disagree, with qualification. For Coop, it's absolutely fine. Liabilities to the team are almost unheard of. I have nothing against going as fast as possible up to tier X, but I keep most games PvE. Almost all my randoms are lower tier, V or so. So for PvP I would agree. I'll move up when I'm ready.

Anyway, I think a major reason randoms work poorly with or even without less experienced players is the lack of coordinated team effort. Providing bigger incentives to join in balanced divs might help. So too incentives to retain divs over several matches, which may force encourage  (less experienced) players to adapt and learn.

The problem is that co-op teaches you bad habits that will get you killed in randoms and Ranked. Case in point, I have a friend who keeps yoloing in during Random battles due to constantly playing co-op no matter how often I remind him that doing that against actual players will get you sunk ASAP.

[MnemonScarlet]

2 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Too many people who have no idea what they are doing are just rushing to tier 10 and end up being massive liabilities to their team. Combine that with a non-functional matchmaker and blowouts are getting more and more common.

When I started playing in CBT and the transition to Open Beta and then Live, it took me two years to get my first tier 10. Now you can slam a line out to tier 10 in a week or two, maybe less, and thus they don't learn how to play their ships or how to play at high tiers.

I got to T10 in ~6 months or so/400-500 games, and that was without premium anything besides running Atago to pay for Yamato's credit cost. Unless you gate toptiers by performance, that will always exist. You should be able to remember all the bad teammates we had back then - I sure do.

But although it has always been bad, it's gotten worse. Partially due to lots of skilled or experienced players leaving, and partially just uh...everything worthwhile doing is at toptiers now. There's no cure for that unfortunately.

Edited September 8, 2023 by MnemonScarlet

[I_cant_Swim_]

@Zaydin Oh i agree there, fully. I therefore pointedly attempt to not gain any habits whatsoever in PvE, beyond range and lead time practice. Its been fine, mostly, though i have this weird itch to hit F10 every six minutes… It comes a bit down to being able and willing to follow someone else’s lead and  cues in random, and i was lucky to be able to play almost all my randoms in divs with very good players. I’ll never know why they let me tag along, though. But that’s beside the point, isn’t it. For folks doing it my way, the key is to keep randoms for divs, abusing your friendship with better players you know. Playing a lot of PvE does not make you good in PvP, but it can make you happy. YMMV.

[Nevermore135]

The state of the game economy at launch was dictated by the amount of content at the time - WG had to pace the game to keep players engaged. So much content has been added over the last eight years that that rate of advancement simply wouldn’t work - new players would get extremely discouraged by the amount of time and effort that would be needed to “catch up” to the veterans. For games like this the economy needs to become more generous over the life of the game to keep newer players engaged.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Nevermore135

[Frostbow]

6 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Too many people who have no idea what they are doing are just rushing to tier 10 and end up being massive liabilities to their team. 

There are currently two events that offer Tier X ships that make this situation more pronounced: the Dockyard for the Lushun, and the ARP Yamato. Both ships are available for cash/doubloon purchase even to the most amateur of amateurs. While these subset of players are seen—sometimes with derision—as doing all of us a favor by spending their tons of cash for the necessary and continued development of the game, their laughable inexperience instantly put their teams on a gross disadvantage.

And just like in previous events that offer high tier ships for cash purchase to any person, especially those lacking the minimum amount of skill and competence in the game, we will again encounter players like that—hopefully in Co-op only, but that is an unreasonable expectation—and there is nothing we can do about it because for any business, cash inflow beats competence in the game.

5 hours ago, I_cant_Swim_ said:

Disagree, with qualification. For Coop, it's absolutely fine. Liabilities to the team are almost unheard of. I have nothing against going as fast as possible up to tier X, but I keep most games PvE. Almost all my randoms are lower tier, V or so. So for PvP I would agree. I'll move up when I'm ready.

If only these players share your perspective. Unfortunately, they do not. "Why would I wait when my brand new shiny Tier X is waiting for me to take her to a real, player versus player battle? Damn the Torpedoes! Full Speed Ahead!" LOL

To be fair, this problem is not exclusive to new players. I have seen this behavior even among experienced players when there is a potential damage combat mission going on.

5 hours ago, I_cant_Swim_ said:

Anyway, I think a major reason randoms work poorly with or even without less experienced players is the lack of coordinated team effort.

That is correct. 

However, a fundamental reason would be utter lack of training and experience. In other games, a player is introduced to a training mode, like in Call of Duty, where there is a shooting range and the player is trained interactively. Call of Duty 4's 'FNG' mission is one of the best implementations I've seen.

In contrast, in World of Warships, a new player is rewarded for the speed in which they progress up the access levels, with scant attention on how their skills are improving. There is little or no training on how to angle, how to properly manage consumables, how to deal with a bow-in ship, how to manage your ship's concealment and use it to your advantage, how to deal with torpedoes, how to deal with aircraft, etc. In World of Warships, the focus is on the speed in progressing up the levels. And of course, the Armory is there, enticing new players to spend money instead of spending time to really develop the skills that would sustain them in higher tiers.

[Dareios]

yes, I remember the days before match bonuses were invented and you had to BXP it all the way. Made all the harder by the number of draws as points hadn't been invented either.

[SunkCostFallacy]

Reading this thread, a thought occurred to me ... inspired by @Frostbow's post.

Are we seeing problems because of player motivation here?

Some background of my WoWS history to explain. I played the standard noob introduction that applied back in 2021 ... and when I was free to go and jump in the deep end, so to speak, I decided that I wasn't ready to do so. I wanted to get better at aiming, for a start. I wanted to get better at positioning my ship to deal with incoming fire. I wanted to get better at reading the map. So I played COOP for few hundred more games. Then I went into Randoms. Given that I'm a COOP player, obviously I decided that Randoms wasn't for me but that's another topic.

I was working my way up every nations cruiser line at first ... until I decided that I wanted to focus on the US and Russian cruisers. I dipped my toes in BBs and DDs ... but I was enjoying cruisers too much so I decided to wait on the other classes.

Everything I did, and have done, aside from some grinding a bit here or there to progress a mission, has been done because it was FUN. Don't get me wrong ... I know that there are times that stuff goes pear shaped and you have a match (or a string of matches) where you don't have fun ... but the directions I took and the way I played the game were all done because it maximised the amount of fun I was having.

If having fun is your motivation ... then leapfrogging to Tier X when you aren't ready is, theoretically at least, a self correcting problem. You buy your Tier X shiny complete with all the bells and whistles and enter battle, and then get your bells blown off and your whistles sent to Davy Jone's Locker. After a few matches like that, you're not having fun, so you go back to where you aren't being wiped out in every match. And hopefully you'll get better as you progress up the tiers.

(Obviously this doesn't allow for seal clubbers who, let's be frank, should be keel hauled if they make a habit of it)

But clearly there MUST be other motivations at play. And who's to say that they aren't equally valid motivations at that. The desire to achieve for example ... grinding up those tech trees. The desire to collect ships. The desire to keep up with your mates. The desire to play a particular ship that you are keen on for some reason. I'm sure that there are many other motivations that apply.

Now I, personally, cannot fathom why anyone would keep queuing for battles where they are completely outclassed. To me there's just zero fun in getting sunk without achieving anything in a match. But clearly there are motivations that make people queue for a Random match in Tier X when they aren't skilled enough to play at that level and are going to end up sinking below the waves. And from what many players say ... there are a lot of them who do so.

I find myself wondering what those motivations could possibly be ... and I also find myself thinking that those motivations are quite likely more profitable to WG, so they go fishing for those potential players with their marketing.

 

Food for thought.

[Kynami]

I'd say part of it has to do with so many things being structured around creating a feeling to need having them. Want decent rewards out of anniversary event? You need multiple tier 10s. Want to play this season's clan battles? Tier 10. Last season's ranked? Tier 10. Suggested tier by most for making credits? Tiers nine and ten. You keep shoving a flashing neon sign that the steel, research points, credit grinding, and more are all best served only at the top and you place all the incentives for people to "buy in" fast to where they are told they can be making money and account progress.

Its kind of like the same old really bad meme of expecting that you can buy your way into being able to make money in a game like EvE Online by short-cutting the early and mid-game learning process. WeeGee loves this mentality because it sells players on buying doubloons to get ships that are "needed" for meta progression. And just like in EvE Online quite often you'd have been better off taking six months to a year learning how to dip your toes into the deep end with some veteran advice... even if you often learn it the hard way and they offer it up piecemeal after you ask how you screwed up this time.

Meanwhile one can make a fair amount of credits with tier sevens even when the premium runs out far easier than tiers nine and ten. So the safety rails are still there, but its implied to be a failing if you stay there for long. And there are some rather notable campaigns that give zero progress in anything below tier 8. So if they are doggedly trying to grind away at getting a special commander even when they shouldn't be up there yet, well...

1 hour ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

(Obviously this doesn't allow for seal clubbers who, let's be frank, should be keel hauled if they make a habit of it)

The hilarious thing is on the odd occasions where I pull out a tier three or four ship to do one or two runs in low tier in a division with clan members I often end up clubbing said seal clubbers. Most of the ones that repeatedly do it for thousands of games are not that great to be honest. Does make for some comedic screenshots when you walk out with a six kill game in a Charleston after running into somebody who has played thousands of games in a Caledon or Clemson. Now if you are talking about the clowns who actually make new accounts to get into the protected matchmaking for seal clubbing that is something else again and yeah those particular individuals do deserve a more significant comeuppance.

[SunkCostFallacy]

18 minutes ago, Kynami said:

I'd say part of it has to do with so many things being structured around creating a feeling to need having them.

Very true ... WGs marketing seems to rely heavily on FOMO and impatience on the part of the players, and encouraging both.

24 minutes ago, Kynami said:

The hilarious thing is on the odd occasions where I pull out a tier three or four ship to do one or two runs in low tier in a division with clan members I often end up clubbing said seal clubbers. Most of the ones that repeatedly do it for thousands of games are not that great to be honest.

Well that's understandable. If someone spends most of their time playing against those who haven't learned how to play all that well ... then that person is likely to develop bad habits, just as I do things in COOP that would get me splatted in short order in Randoms.

 

[Yedwy]

Yaaawn, not the “WG gives 2 much free stuff, nerf free stuff” rant again… Also its usually either a CC that gets loads of free sh*t from WG or guys hoarding camos and flags since CBT that got 10000 blue bonuses when econo rework happened…

In short - making people yolo for 500 battles till they reach T10 instead of 150-200 wont change squat, they will still do the same things

[Wolfswetpaws]

16 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Too many people who have no idea what they are doing are just rushing to tier 10 and end up being massive liabilities to their team. Combine that with a non-functional matchmaker and blowouts are getting more and more common.

When I started playing in CBT and the transition to Open Beta and then Live, it took me two years to get my first tier 10. Now you can slam a line out to tier 10 in a week or two, maybe less, and thus they don't learn how to play their ships or how to play at high tiers.

Who are you to decide how other people progress up the tech-tree lines?  🙂 

Having a ship of a given tier is the key that unlocks the door to the matchmaking for that tier of ship.

We were all newbies once upon a time.  I suggest writing training manuals instead of venting/complaining/whining about how other people play.

Matchmaking involves meeting randomly assigned players who have a compatible ship, regardless of their playing ability.
We command our own ship, not the ships of other people.  
I am curious why we're not celebrating the efforts of people who have researched and welcomed a tech-tree line all the way to Tier-10 in a short time?  🙂 

[Asym]

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I am curious why we're not celebrating the efforts of people who have researched and welcomed a tech-tree line all the way to Tier-10 in a short time?  🙂 

Well said.  But, that nagging thought in me head keeps wanting out:  this game is NOT a meritocracy at all...  It's not skill based at all.   There are no skill gates for almost anything.

And, without those whom disrespect the concepts of a meritocracy, they are in fact more correct in how they treat game play:  the shortest route to tier * is spending vis-a'-vis skill......   And that, <<<<<, is what this game is really about......an arcade shooter that makes easy money with almost no progression mechanics....

As we sit here rationalizing why>?   It's a game to have fun in and chase each other or bots around because we, as individuals, need [ pick a reason that pertains to your situation]     For me, to study the last of this type of game.......that, I hated at first and now, like it....  Otherwise, I would have retired the game at the Skill Tree Change....

I am curious too.....

Edited September 9, 2023 by Asym

[a252]

Apart from opening the wallet I don't think it is too easy to reach T10 in TT.

In the older days you can have a concern whether to put on dragon flags and spring sky when grinding a ship or use it on a OP boat to maximise credit, fxp and cxp. Now you don't have that concern. The econ signals rework helps the newbies to decide whether they want to spend on specific resource or not. They don't have to think about wasting the fxp cxp and credit on a ship that they don't perform well, they only have to think whether to bring the grey, green or blue to speed up.

 

However if you are on new account you probably don't have too many econ bonus sitting in your account. You can say they can spend money on buying the blue ribbon and yoloing all the way through the techtree to T10, however if they don't hit the money button I don't see it is easier.

If you are talking about sitting on tremendous converted blue xp ribbon and saying it is too easy to get to T10, forget what I said above.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

If you gate the high tiers you will turn players away.

If you provide compulsory training, useless idiots will grind their way through it and then go back to their old ways. 

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[Frostbow]

6 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

If you provide compulsory training, useless idiots will grind their way through it and then go back to their old ways. 

But not all players are 'useless idiots'. And the benefits of training far outweigh any disadvantages, perceived or real.

A half-trained player is better than a player who has no training at all.

7 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

That's what they say, but it does not even begin to approach the glaring lack of useful training WG has made for new players, unlike how a different publisher has been doing it.

A half-trained player is better than a player who has no training at all.

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 minute ago, Frostbow said:

unlike how a different publisher has been doing it.

Any reason you can't say their name here?  🙂 
Do they have a not-safe-for-work name?  🙂 

[Wulf_Ace]

well imagine you are just starting the game, would you like to play until first tier 10 for a year? while everybody run around with dozens of them. Tou wouldnt. Todays people want everything and they want it fast so they forgot to enjoy the game...

 

[Admiral_Karasu]

13 minutes ago, Wulf_Ace said:

well imagine you are just starting the game, would you like to play until first tier 10 for a year? while everybody run around with dozens of them. Tou wouldnt. Todays people want everything and they want it fast so they forgot to enjoy the game...

 

Perhaps WG should make the game begin at tier 10 then, and let players work their way to tier 1 at their leisure?

Well it's a just a thought...

[Ensign Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, Frostbow said:

And the benefits of training far outweigh any disadvantages, perceived or real.

The training is on-the-job.

1 hour ago, Frostbow said:

unlike how a different publisher has been doing it.

Say the name.

[tocqueville8]

Unless WG said "you need at least X Tier N ships to get to Tier N+1", forcing people to grind multiple lines at once, this issue is not solvable.

It's not about the ARP Yamato and Lushun in the Dockyard, it's about:

• how some people will never learn the game, staying at 40-45% winrate even after 20k matches
• how it takes only a few hundred games to reach Tier 10, but a few thousands to learn the game without some heavy assistance

You can make the grind twice, three times as slow, but some people will only, maybe, possibly learn the game a bit if they take 5-10 times longer to grind to high tiers. Do good players want to have to grind that much longer, say, when a new line is released?

Edited September 9, 2023 by tocqueville8

[Zaydin]

Okay, I keep seeing people trying to put words in my mouth.

I am not trying to gatekeep the game. I don't have a problem with people getting to tier 10. I have a problem with people getting to tier 10 not knowing how to play the game or their ship.

The friend I mentioned in my anecdote? He has over 15k games in co-op but only just over 300 in randoms and his winrate and PR in randoms are atrocious because the tactics that work in co-op get you sunk in random battles.

We've all seen people trying trying to snipe in Preussens or GKs or launching torpedoes at targets well outside their range.

People getting to tier 10 quickly wouldn't be an issue if WG bothered explaining a lot of mechanics in game that could help people play better; things like Overmatch, fuse timers, penetration, angling etc.

[Frostbow]

40 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Say the name.

Read my first reply in this thread. 

41 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

The training is on-the-job.

Which blows your argument out of the water, and further solidifies the long valid contention that the 'training' in World of Warships is as thin as Hashidate's armor because the new player is left to his own. 

• The game deliberately teaches a new player how to angle his ship properly? No.
• The game deliberately instructs a new player how to properly time the use of his consumables? No.
• The game deliberately informs a new player how to deal with a bow-in enemy ship? No.
• The game deliberately teaches a new player the mechanics of different game modes such as Domination? No.
• The game deliberately teaches a new player the importance of that signal flag to completely eliminate Detonation? No.
• The game deliberately offers Tier IX premium ships to a new player who has not played a single battle outside of Tier I? Yes!

Given WG's early emphasis on leveling up to be able to access the Armory, Containers, higher tier ships, etc.—all of which contain inordinate amounts of enticements for the player to spend real money—the behavior that WG is trying to reinforce on new players such as those with lots of cash and little in competence, is the perception or the belief that a new, shiny premium ship is the ticket to victorious battles and glittering achievements.

To be fair, these may not matter much in the grossly artificial environment of Co-op, which as you have admitted many times here and in the old forum, is the environment you play on most of the time. But that still leaves open and unresolved the glaring lack of creativity and honest effort on the part of Wargaming to develop and prepare new players for the challenges that they will meet. And while I also enjoy Co-op, it is not the only battle type in the game that me and other players venture into regularly.

To be fair again, Wargaming recently went out of its way to develop and execute in-game tips, articles, videos, etc. about SUBMARINES. 

How Wargaming moved heaven and earth to handhold existing players taking their first few voyages in submarines should be the standard in which they will assist and train new players sailing their first few ships in World of Warships.