Talk me out of Gato

[Tricericon]

My Armory Upgrade coupon is ready to use today, and I'm trying to plan my ship acquisitions ahead in choosing what to get next. The Coal/Steel coupon resets June 1st, and I am over the magic 24,750 Steel line to get any Steel ship I want. My assessment last time I went through the Steel list placed Gato second after the ship I bought, so I've had her "penciled in" as my next choice since then. However, submarines have been reworked since that assessment. Keeping in mind:

- My primary criteria is "Will I play this ship?"

- My second criteria is "Does this ship have high historical value?"

- I took a break from the end of the Christmas event until the start of the Wisconsin dockyard, so I have negligible experience with the reworked submarines and only understand the changes at a high theoretical level.

My questions are:

- Are submarines still playable/fun after the submarine changes? Ignore this question if you didn't consider them such before.

- How did Gato, specifically, hold up to the changes?

- The "conventional wisdom" is that Gato should be equipped with the Submarine Surveillance and Damage Control Party upgrades from the Armory. Do you agree?

- Is there anything interesting upcoming to spend Steel on that's not yet in the armory?

- Is there any Steel ship I should be seriously considering instead? I am absolutely not considering Roosevelt (I am not investing Steel, Coal, or Doubloons into carriers until the proposed changes shake out), Incomparable (can't buy her twice), and Vallejo (I am not considering spending Steel at Tier 9). However, feel free to recommend them in case someone else with a similar question finds this thread in the future.

[Itwastuesday]

Kommissar is coming out for steel. Probably a while before another steel ship appears. 

[Jakob Knight]

Submarines can be fun and enjoyable to play, if you learn what they can and cannot do and don't have other expectations for them.  In COOP, the bots will always know where you are, so don't get a Sub for only that mode.

Specifically, the 3km dead zone on all Submarine torpedoes means that you will have to engage no closer than 5 km to have a reasonable chance for the torpedoes to arm.  This also means solo engaging a DD will most times be a losing proposition now.  Your targets are the larger ships.

 

In regards to Gato, I've found it workable, but the inability to load all tubes at once means you have to either be content firing half your armament per minute, or wait two minutes to reload a full bow or aft salvo.  You will also be relying more on unguided torpedoes than the other T10 Subs.  Overall, I like the Gato, but it isn't great.  As long as you have your team to spot for those long range fish, you can do well in it, but I would say it is left in the dust by both the Premium and tech tree German T10 subs.

 

I can't speak to the upgrades, as I don't have either.

 

As far as upcoming interesting ships for Steel, we still don't know what Johnston will be sold for (to my knowledge).  If that ship interests you, you may want to wait.

 

My two cents.

 

 

Edited May 6 by Jakob Knight

[ArIskandir]

56 minutes ago, Tricericon said:

My questions are:

- Are submarines still playable/fun after the submarine changes?

Can't provide you first hand experience since I left the game over a year ago, so I've no experience on the last set of changes beyond the theory of it (but usually the theory is more than enough to make an educated judgement, given extensive previous experience on the subject). 

As for the question "are Submarines still playable/fun", I think they can still be playable/effective but they are less fun than they used to be. Point-blank shotgun attacks (under 2km - assured spotting distance) were almost never an optimal way to attack but they were undoubtly one of the funniest things to do in a Sub. Also, being deadly a point-black range provided Subs an edge to survive in danger close situations and a motivation to risk those encounters, being the most exhilarating experiences when playing Subs. So I can say with a high degree of certainty they are without doubt less fun to play now than what they used to be. 

For me that would be a deal breaker, but only because I have plenty of previous experience and the "new way" would feel like a shadow of what it used to be. Also because of the way I am, I'm not likely to settle for "less"... but that's my case. For you, it might be another story. 

Being objective, the changes only affect Gato negatively on limited situations where you already "screwed up". The optimal "dumbfire" attack range is still around 3km while keeping your Concealment, going closer than that for an attack was  unnecessarily risky. So, the "skill floor" is a bit higher and the "skill ceiling" is a bit lower (you lost flexibility and some play options) but the bulk of the play style is still there, what made Gato awesome (invisible delete potential on the 3-6 km range) is for the most part still there. I still think Gato is the funniest, most enjoyable Submarine on the market. 

1 hour ago, Tricericon said:

The "conventional wisdom" is that Gato should be equipped with the Submarine Surveillance and Damage Control Party upgrades from the Armory. Do you agree?

The benefits of the improved Damage Control Party are so marginal that for the most part won't carry any significant practical effect. The Submarine Surveillance bonus can have a very significant impact on Sub vs Sub engagements, I would say it is mandatory. 

As example gameplay:

The recent changes wouldn't carry any significant performance impact, my last attack on the Montana would have required to be delivered a bit farther away but that wouldn't be a problem and wouldn't change the outcome of the interaction. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

8 hours ago, Tricericon said:

Talk me out of Gato

My Armory Upgrade coupon is ready to use today, and I'm trying to plan my ship acquisitions ahead in choosing what to get next. The Coal/Steel coupon resets June 1st, and I am over the magic 24,750 Steel line to get any Steel ship I want. My assessment last time I went through the Steel list placed Gato second after the ship I bought, so I've had her "penciled in" as my next choice since then. However, submarines have been reworked since that assessment. Keeping in mind:

- My primary criteria is "Will I play this ship?"

- My second criteria is "Does this ship have high historical value?"

- I took a break from the end of the Christmas event until the start of the Wisconsin dockyard, so I have negligible experience with the reworked submarines and only understand the changes at a high theoretical level.

My questions are:

- Are submarines still playable/fun after the submarine changes? Ignore this question if you didn't consider them such before.

- How did Gato, specifically, hold up to the changes?

- The "conventional wisdom" is that Gato should be equipped with the Submarine Surveillance and Damage Control Party upgrades from the Armory. Do you agree?

- Is there anything interesting upcoming to spend Steel on that's not yet in the armory?

- Is there any Steel ship I should be seriously considering instead? I am absolutely not considering Roosevelt (I am not investing Steel, Coal, or Doubloons into carriers until the proposed changes shake out), Incomparable (can't buy her twice), and Vallejo (I am not considering spending Steel at Tier 9). However, feel free to recommend them in case someone else with a similar question finds this thread in the future.

I was sailing my Gato during the past couple of weeks.
As you're aware, the Gato is a real ship/boat, and was a real participant in history.

Am I a fan of the recent nerfs to submarine torpedo arming distances?  No.
That said, the Gato's play-style is a bit different from most other in-game submarines, and I feel she wasn't hit by the full brunt of the nerfs.

So, to get to your questions.

- Are submarines still playable ...?
They can be.  And, I'm speaking as somone who really preferred the "in your face" torpedoes from point-blank range style of play, with high risk and high reward and plenty of uncertain moments.
The nerf to the arming distances largely doesn't affect my Gato play.
Why?
Well, because most of the time I'm using her "dumb-fire" torpedoes with the 16.5 km range.
I only need to use the acoustic-homing torpedoes, with their 6 km range, during specific circumstances (such as being in proximity to a red-team submarine).
As I figure it, the Gato is one of a handful of anti-capitol-ship submarines. 
Such submarines have long-range torpedoes with big warheads, intended to pole-axe CV's and BB's who sail in a straight line for too long.
Sure, those warheads work well on Cruisers and DD's, too, if you can score hits on them.

- How did Gato, specifically hold up to the changes?
I think I already answered this somewhat, in my response to your earlier question.  
With that being said, I think the Gato came through the submarine nerfs in a manner that affected her less than other submarines.
She's still a "gud 'bote", in my opinion.

- The "conventional wisdom" ....
I think it never hurts to make one's submarine more survivable.  But, I've not used module upgrades purchased from the armory with my Gato build.
Proper management of one's detection and smart game-play will make more of a difference than some modules which alter performance specifications by a few percentage points.
But, perhaps in some competitive situations a person may feel inclined?  I'm not sure one way or the other.  

- Is there any steel ship ....
My "Magic 8-Ball" gave the following response to the question.  "Cannot predict now".

Personally, I don't regret getting my Gato before the "nerfs" and think she's still reasonably fun to play because of her competitive concealment.
 

Edited May 6 by Wolfswetpaws

[Unlooky]

12 hours ago, Tricericon said:

- Are submarines still playable/fun after the submarine changes? Ignore this question if you didn't consider them such before.

They're absolutely playable. However, the meta for submarines has definitely shifted towards long range spam pinging. Shot gunning is significantly more difficult to perform nowadays. 

 

12 hours ago, Tricericon said:

How did Gato, specifically, hold up to the changes?

Definitely not as well. If you are forced into a defensive posture, you might as well return to port. I'd also point out that the damage ramping change affects sub v sub, so you effectively have a 2km zone in which you can engage enemy submarines. You have very few methods of successfully engaging destroyers now. Imo she now plays like a more traditional torp boat. Not as fun as the old (hilariously broken) appear 3km away and deal 70k in half a second. 

12 hours ago, Tricericon said:

The "conventional wisdom" is that Gato should be equipped with the Submarine Surveillance and Damage Control Party upgrades from the Armory. Do you agree?

There's nothing better to put in those slots at least. 

12 hours ago, Tricericon said:

- Is there anything interesting upcoming to spend Steel on that's not yet in the armory?

No, but I'm not interested in Kommisar at all. Perhaps you might be, but that doesn't seem likely. 

12 hours ago, Tricericon said:

Is there any Steel ship I should be seriously considering instead? I am absolutely not considering Roosevelt (I am not investing Steel, Coal, or Doubloons into carriers until the proposed changes shake out), Incomparable (can't buy her twice), and Vallejo (I am not considering spending Steel at Tier 9). However, feel free to recommend them in case someone else with a similar question finds this thread in the future.

I cannot recommend Lauria enough. Lauria is ridiculous and has certain interactions that make you wonder how tf it got past testing (SAP citadelling certain cruisers, SAP devstriking subs.) In case Incomp is your only steel ship, Bourgogne and Stalingrad are extremely respectable ships that I would recommend everyone buy before moving to the more "gimmicky" boats (of which I consider Gato to be a part of.) 

Edited May 7 by Unlooky

[Andrewbassg]

5 hours ago, Tricericon said:

Talk me out of Gato

Well its a ......suckmarine!!! 

 

So......

[Tricericon]

I knew I'd come back from work to some good responses and was not disappointed. Thanks, DevStrike! A lot for me to think about.

[Aethervox]

Sure, don't buy it 😁

[desmo_2]

I am sorry, I cannot talk you out of getting Gato.

However, DO NOT get Gato if you haven't already played a submarine nation or two and at least advanced to Tier 8 with them.

If you do not know how to play subs and you get Gato based on her reputation expecting to find easy mode, you WILL be sorely disappointed.  Gato isn't the short range shotgun monster she once was, but she is still very capable.  But, you have to know how to play subs first.  There is a reason why subs are nearly always either last on their team in XP (most common), or near the top.  Playing subs well depends heavily on managing your dive time and detection while surfaced.  Most sub players burn through their dive time and are then easy prey when they are forced to surface.  Playing through the tech tree ships will hopefully give you an idea, for free, if you can learn to do that.  If you can, Gato is a solid performer.

I got Gato and U-4501 after grinding all three tech tree lines to Tier 10 (albeit during the Christmas holiday +200% first win bonus).  Each are strong, but more of a sideways option rather than a flat out OP upgrade.  They both play a bit differently than their tech tree siblings.  However, if you have figured out how to play subs, both are solid acquisitions.

Edited May 7 by desmo_2

[Tricericon]

3 hours ago, desmo_2 said:

I am sorry, I cannot talk you out of getting Gato.

However, DO NOT get Gato if you haven't already played a submarine nation or two and at least advanced to Tier 8 with them.

If you do not know how to play subs and you get Gato based on her reputation expecting to find easy mode, you WILL be sorely disappointed.  Gato isn't the short range shotgun monster she once was, but she is still very capable.  But, you have to know how to play subs first.  There is a reason why subs are nearly always either last on their team in XP (most common), or near the top.  Playing subs well depends heavily on managing your dive time and detection while surfaced.  Most sub players burn through their dive time and are then easy prey when they are forced to surface.  Playing through the tech tree ships will hopefully give you an idea, for free, if you can learn to do that.  If you can, Gato is a solid performer.

I got Gato and U-4501 after grinding all three tech tree lines to Tier 10 (albeit during the Christmas holiday +200% first win bonus).  Each are strong, but more of a sideways option rather than a flat out OP upgrade.  They both play a bit differently than their tech tree siblings.  However, if you have figured out how to play subs, both are solid acquisitions.

I have Balao and have for a while. My win rate was above water (heh) but below my usual standards during the grind... I kind of got the impression the class was low impact, but it was fun. I prefer the higher alpha "dumb" torps over the homing ones, in general, and I heard Gato was improved over Balao in that area.

If she's not a shotgun monster anymore, how would you say she plays?

[desmo_2]

6 hours ago, Tricericon said:

If she's not a shotgun monster anymore, how would you say she plays?

Shotgunning is still her thing, it just isn't as lethal as it was before.  One used to be able to sneak to within one or two kilometers of a camped battleship at periscope depth, unload torps and dev strike the battleship.  The close range devastation has been reduced, but her play hasn't changed much.  Her homing torps only have a 6 km range while her shotgun torps have a 16.5 km range. 

[Jakob Knight]

8 hours ago, Tricericon said:

I have Balao and have for a while. My win rate was above water (heh) but below my usual standards during the grind... I kind of got the impression the class was low impact, but it was fun. I prefer the higher alpha "dumb" torps over the homing ones, in general, and I heard Gato was improved over Balao in that area.
 

 

One point the Gato improves over the Balao is that you get three loaders for the bow tubes on the Gato compared to the two on the Balao.  The extended range on the unguided torpedoes is nice at the beginning of the match, but can also be a bit tricky once your team starts getting behind the enemy.

 

As a Premium, it has the advantage of being able to use different commanders to tailor your skills as well.

 

However, if you already have Balao, it's hard to say if those advantages are enough to justify the expense.  It will, of course, depend on your feelings towards it and any other potential purchases, but I never got the Balao because I felt I had a pretty much similar ship in the Gato.  

 

 

 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

22 hours ago, Tricericon said:

My Armory Upgrade coupon is ready to use today, and I'm trying to plan my ship acquisitions ahead in choosing what to get next. The Coal/Steel coupon resets June 1st, and I am over the magic 24,750 Steel line to get any Steel ship I want. My assessment last time I went through the Steel list placed Gato second after the ship I bought, so I've had her "penciled in" as my next choice since then. However, submarines have been reworked since that assessment. Keeping in mind:

- My primary criteria is "Will I play this ship?"

- My second criteria is "Does this ship have high historical value?"

- I took a break from the end of the Christmas event until the start of the Wisconsin dockyard, so I have negligible experience with the reworked submarines and only understand the changes at a high theoretical level.

My questions are:

- Are submarines still playable/fun after the submarine changes? Ignore this question if you didn't consider them such before.

- How did Gato, specifically, hold up to the changes?

- The "conventional wisdom" is that Gato should be equipped with the Submarine Surveillance and Damage Control Party upgrades from the Armory. Do you agree?

- Is there anything interesting upcoming to spend Steel on that's not yet in the armory?

- Is there any Steel ship I should be seriously considering instead? I am absolutely not considering Roosevelt (I am not investing Steel, Coal, or Doubloons into carriers until the proposed changes shake out), Incomparable (can't buy her twice), and Vallejo (I am not considering spending Steel at Tier 9). However, feel free to recommend them in case someone else with a similar question finds this thread in the future.

You seem to have a good plan and good criteria.

Always go for a class/ship that you enjoy playing. Example, I went for Ohio in RB because everyone said its a good ship, but I probably played it like 7-8 times total, that said I already have Vampire II and Illinois so didn't have much else of interest to spend it on.

If you enjoy playing subs I can highly recommend you getting Gato since its still a beast, dont know much about the history of this ship, but its strong A-F, if you are experienced, 200 K + games isn't that hard, especially since you sometimes get 8-90 000 in one salvo.

Gato wasent that effected by the changes except for not being able to nuke a T10 full HP BB from spitting distance, you can still do it from a stone throw (3 km). Other changes to subs where more ASW but that doesn't affect Gato as much since you are a stealthy ninja that never emits a ping.

Sure, you still need to deal with other subs and some rare occasions where there is an ITA or IJN cruiser nearby but using youre head and minimap should fix that problem.

I would invest in the modules since its a great premium and should have the best modules etc.

Haven't heard of any other steel that im psyched about. Any other I would be interested in is Bourgogne.

After the changes you can build her so her torps does I think over 21 000 damage a pop, but its kinda overkill.

Edited May 7 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube

[Wolfswetpaws]

14 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

One point the Gato improves over the Balao is that you get three loaders for the bow tubes on the Gato compared to the two on the Balao.  The extended range on the unguided torpedoes is nice at the beginning of the match, but can also be a bit tricky once your team starts getting behind the enemy.

As a Premium, it has the advantage of being able to use different commanders to tailor your skills as well.

However, if you already have Balao, it's hard to say if those advantages are enough to justify the expense.  It will, of course, depend on your feelings towards it and any other potential purchases, but I never got the Balao because I felt I had a pretty much similar ship in the Gato.  

I have both the Balao and the Gato.  I like the Gato more.
It might be because I once sank a CV that sailed in a straight line too long while being just within range of my 16.5 km torpedoes.  


 

[ArIskandir]

9 hours ago, Tricericon said:

If she's not a shotgun monster anymore, how would you say she plays?

What most people understand as "Shotgun" range is overrated, you don't really want to get spotted under any circumstances. In reality the bulk of your gameplay lies beyond the assured detection range (aprox 2,5km), so the range damage nerf is not all that relevant if You focus on playing the "right” way.

[Tricericon]

1 hour ago, Jakob Knight said:

One point the Gato improves over the Balao is that you get three loaders for the bow tubes on the Gato compared to the two on the Balao.  The extended range on the unguided torpedoes is nice at the beginning of the match, but can also be a bit tricky once your team starts getting behind the enemy.

 

As a Premium, it has the advantage of being able to use different commanders to tailor your skills as well.

 

However, if you already have Balao, it's hard to say if those advantages are enough to justify the expense.  It will, of course, depend on your feelings towards it and any other potential purchases, but I never got the Balao because I felt I had a pretty much similar ship in the Gato. 

I've never regretted getting a "premium clone" of a ship I already liked; Some of them are among my favorites. The advantages of extra credits and being able to use by best captains are mitigated a bit at tier 10 since the boost isn't as big and most of my good captains live there anyway, but I'm still not opposed to it. I'm optimistic that Gato's differences from Balao will make her stronger and a better for for my playstyle, to boot.

The other thread is that most of the rest of the Steel ships either don't impress me much or are, in my judgment, unlikely to get played over ships I already have. That's one reason my prompt to build a counter-case was so broad. I was seeing if someone would catch something I missed.

1 hour ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

dont know much about the history of this ship

The Gato class was one of the backbones of the USN submarine campaign against Japan. She's one of the very few ship classes in game that can plausibly claim to be a "war winning" design, especially since the light British escorts that did the yeoman's work in the Atlantic aren't represented.

When I was a boy I had a book called "Battle Stations" with various accounts from World War 2. My favorite was about Sam Dealey and Harder hunting Japanese destroyers in the South Pacific, and for that reason the class is also a bit of a sentimental favorite of mine.

Thanks again to everyone in the thread. I've decided Gato is the way to go. I'll use the coal "customization" coupons from 4/26 and 5/26 to get the two upgrades and get Gato (well, she'll be "Hit 'em again Harder" to me) when my Steel coupon cycles June 1st.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

With the right build you can get each of the 6 torps of the Gato to do 22 149 damage ...... thats 132 894 Damage in ONE salvo (not counting the 4 aft ... so possibly 221 490 damage per 46 second salvo, if you just do a donut with the bote.....) ..... that reloads 6 new torps each 46,8 seconds. Thats (depending on torp protection etc) possibly 2 T10 BBs you can dev.strike from full HP within 1 minute.

So, if one stays just outside 3 km its an even stronger Gato then before the "BIG Submarine Nerf" (counting damage buff modules, damage protection modules and new flags). Just what the game needed.

 

So ..... yeah .... I can recommend this ship!

Edited May 7 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube

[ArIskandir]

31 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

So ..... yeah .... I can recommend this ship!

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

 
 

[Wrath_of_Deadguy]

I'd try to talk you out of Gato... but, I hate subs (as implemented by WG) with every fiber of my being, and even I would want a Gato in my port. Iconic piece of history!

...though, all things being equal, I think I'd rather have Barb. I could almost tolerate having my ship sent to the bottom by a sub that managed to sink a train.

[Volron]

Well, I would advise you to play other submarines first to see how the changes affected your gameplay with subs.  If it feels like something you can modify your gameplay to meet, then you ask yourself: "How often do I intend to use Gato?".

 

I picked up Gato a few months before Asm was going to drop.  My thought was I could use her there, and I do, a lot.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

40 minutes ago, Volron said:

Well, I would advise you to play other submarines first to see how the changes affected your gameplay with subs.  If it feels like something you can modify your gameplay to meet, then you ask yourself: "How often do I intend to use Gato?".

 

I picked up Gato a few months before Asm was going to drop.  My thought was I could use her there, and I do, a lot.

I would just argue that imho Gato isn't as affected as most other subs so to play other subs is not really representative of same experience. In my mind Gato is more like a 2.1 km conceal high Alpha (like Shima) DD that can vanish whenever things gets little "heated". The changes has effected other subs quite much but not really as much for Gato (also the 2 other Premium T8 dev.strike subs).

 

That said, I still think (as I been vocal about in the past) Subs and CVs are complete BS and should be removed from this game and it would make this game so much better if the 2 "god classes" didn't exist, but thats just one guys opinion. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

I would just argue that imho Gato isn't as affected as most other subs so to play other subs is not really representative of same experience.  In my mind Gato is more like a 2.1 km conceal high Alpha (like Shima) DD that can vanish whenever things gets little "heated". The changes has effected other subs quite much but not really as much for Gato (also the 2 other Premium T8 dev.strike subs).

Such an argument holds some water, in my opinion.
Other submarines are more challenging to play.  Thus if one can do well with other submarines, then adapting to Gato's playstyle should be do-able.
The I-56, for example, has long-range high-damage torpedoes, but the I-56's large detection radius and small dive-capacity is very different from the Gato.
But, I feel it's more useful to compare the Gato with the other tech-tree US Navy submarines and with the German Navy submarines.

In my opinion, it is worth remembering that recent proliferation of the "submarine surveilance" consumable on various cruisers has made it more difficult to *vanish whenever things gets little "heated".*
Sure, if the red-team ship only has hydro-acoustic search, being just outside of 2 km and below periscope depth still works.
But, be within 6 km and at any depth (except "surfaced") and one can find themselves detected and the target of a lot of incoming ordnance.  🙂 
Of course, as with Destroyers, managing a submarines detection status and positioning is an important aspect of learning to play them well.
 

Quote

That said, I still think (as I been vocal about in the past) Subs and CVs are complete BS and should be removed from this game and it would make this game so much better if the 2 "god classes" didn't exist, but thats just one guys opinion. 

Well, I'm just going to defend your right to speak your opinions on this issue ^^^ while simultaneously having my own differing opinions.  😉 
Seems like it would be worth its own separate topic, though, instead of distracting from this topic.  🙂 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

3 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Such an argument holds some water, in my opinion.
Other submarines are more challenging to play.  Thus if one can do well with other submarines, then adapting to Gato's playstyle should be do-able.
The I-56, for example, has long-range high-damage torpedoes, but the I-56's large detection radius and small dive-capacity is very different from the Gato.
But, I feel it's more useful to compare the Gato with the other tech-tree US Navy submarines and with the German Navy submarines.

But I feel that doing well in other subs usually mena you get used to the luxury of homing torps, but for Gato most players use the non-homing since those are the "Nukes", which means more being able to predict a players movement and "tell tale signs", so I would argue that if you are experience in playing sneacky ninjas like IJN torp line it should be a pretty easy transition into Gato. 

I-56 has crappy conceal and battery, but if one can manage it well it can Nuke T8 BBs just like Gato at T10´s. If one want a bit more "Easy street" you play U-190 which has same Nukes as I-56, Great conceal, way better battery but really long reload.

The only similarity I see of Gato and the US/German T10 is that they are at the same tier. in my mind they play totally different. That said, you can play U-2501 without pinging (that Trenlass for some insane reason do often) but then you're missing out of the power of the sub. 

 

3 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

In my opinion, it is worth remembering that recent proliferation of the "submarine surveilance" consumable on various cruisers has made it more difficult to *vanish whenever things gets little "heated".

Thats said if you get detected by a cruiser sub surveillance I would argue you lack experience or map awareness. WG in their "Infinite wisdom" thought it was a brilliant idea to give this consumable to the 2 cruiser lines that more than often camp the back lines, Yodo/Venezia (could it be they didn't want subs effected so much ....?).

So, IF one of these gets the idea to yolo rush a sub really should see them coming a mile away. You could get surprised from behind and island, but susbs shouldn't be in the mix of island anyways because you ground/get stuck/die. 

 

3 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Well, I'm just going to defend your right to speak your opinions on this issue ^^^ while simultaneously having my own differing opinions.  😉 
Seems like it would be worth its own separate topic, though, instead of distracting from this topic.  🙂 

 

Yeah, lets agree to disagree. The subject has been debated to death over the last 8 years and some see it one way and some see it the right way (totally joking .. 🤪 ) and no one side will change the other. It is what it is!

And as I also stated many times, since WG just create more of these "god classes", I will then switch and play a lot of them instead. I rather be the abuser than the abused. I rather have a shitty Newb game in a T8 sub and get 1:st place and 2500-3000 Base XP in a T10 game, then being the DD player (which I been then last 8 years) doing all the work, taking all the risk, capping, getting 150-180 K damage.....  and end up second place to the 40% WR guy in a Sub. For me, it's an easy choice.