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How can this be helped / remedied - let's openly discuss the biggest problem in WoWs - the absolute player base rock bottom degradation / decay


Leo_Apollo11

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Hi all,

How can this be helped / remedied - let's openly discuss the biggest problem in WoWs - the absolute player base rock bottom degradation / decay

 

This was Brawl game - but the stats are from "Random" games - they show the real truth about WoWs player base:

loop-5-24-03-2024-10-28-37.thumb.png.3aeac15c7a142a75c7898e1b4c8c5efe.png

 

The main (and sad) point is absolutely terribad player base even with players with tens of thousands of Random games played... 😞

 

What can be done?

Can WG finally introduce some learning / training missions for players to properly learn the basics (aiming, positioning, reading minimap)?

 

Leo "Apollo11"

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And how this shows in practice is this play every other game : bunch up all your battleships, kite, look at the points ticking, kite more, kill off maybe an impatient player or two who want to interact with their opponents in some way, keep kiting, game over. 

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1 hour ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

let's openly discuss the biggest problem in WoWs

People who think they are owed winning teams.

IMO use of matchmaking monitor should be made a bannable offence. 

Edited by Ensign Cthulhu
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1 hour ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Can WG finally introduce some learning / training missions for players to properly learn the basics (aiming, positioning, reading minimap)?

These are the things they should be doing in early co-op. But the real problem is that some people don't want to learn, and even if you made it mandatory it would be like the real world and driving cars. Some people sit their lessons, pass their test and STILL go on to be awful drivers all their lives. 

YOU CANNOT FORCE THE PLAYERBASE TO BE TRAINED TO A STANDARD THAT MEETS YOUR DESIRES.

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Hi all,

28 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

People who think they are owed winning teams.

IMO use of matchmaking monitor should be made a bannable offence. 

Yep... it is so much better ignoring the problem and do nothing... everything is just fine... 😞

 

Leo "Apollo11"

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33 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

IMO use of matchmaking monitor should be made a bannable offence. 

Intentionally throwing games due to unfavorable team makeup learnt via MM Monitor or its analogues or posting other player's stats extracted with the tools in public should be considered as offence, I think only complaining about unfavorable teams or judging who seems to be more reliable in battle should be allowed.

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31 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

These are the things they should be doing in early co-op. But the real problem is that some people don't want to learn, and even if you made it mandatory it would be like the real world and driving cars. Some people sit their lessons, pass their test and STILL go on to be awful drivers all their lives. 

YOU CANNOT FORCE THE PLAYERBASE TO BE TRAINED TO A STANDARD THAT MEETS YOUR DESIRES.

The game is at least relatively difficult to learn and master, and there has been a lack of proper introductory courses, and despite all the frustration no one may force a veteran potato to improve or quit merely over the fact that they are poorer players. Stat-shaming is officially discouraged if not banned and I've heard tales of Customer service responding to complaints on teammates' poor performance/gameplay with things like "Poor, ineffective gaming is also a way of playing the game as long as botting and/or AFK is involved".

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Brawls helped me to become a better player. I imagine that it attracts a wide range of players for many reasons including the fact that it is not documented.

Personally, I do not mind that there are some bad players because the experience will make them better.

I have finished every brawl since last autumn except for one and I may not finish the current week due to taking some time away from the game. This puts my rough guesstimate at around 2,ooo matches and while checking daily I average 5o% wins. This experience was pivotal in my development.

But these players are not playing documented competitive modes while they are playing brawls, so that should be okay.

So I think this requires a different thinking process than the obvious, well its full of bad players. The ones with 1ok or more total matches are still a small sample.

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59 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

IMO use of matchmaking monitor should be made a bannable offence.

 
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2 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

What can be done?

Nothing. The majority of the player base has no concept of the game other than shooty Pew pew pixel boats. These players enjoy the game because they get to sail their favorite historical ships into battle, they have no intentions of “learning” the game.  
Those of us who do put effort into becoming proficient at the game just have try and carry.
 

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Hi all,

21 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

Nothing. The majority of the player base has no concept of the game other than shooty Pew pew pixel boats. These players enjoy the game because they get to sail their favorite historical ships into battle, they have no intentions of “learning” the game.  
Those of us who do put effort into becoming proficient at the game just have try and carry.
 

Yep - sad truth (another example):

warriorspath-5-24-03-2024-13-19-58.thumb.png.7e77867b7d742f9fb25cf450b6711909.png

 

But imagine that there are WG designed Learning / Training missions that give incentive to be played (i.e. player get some small reward fro successfully finishing the mission the 1st time around = 5 Boosters - every other time player can still use the Learning / Training missions but no reward will be issued)!

For example:

  • in BB You have 2 minutes to hit Citadel on broadside enemy BB at 90 degrees angle at 15 km - he is stationary
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to hit Citadel on broadside enemy BB at 90 degrees angle at 10 km - he is stationary
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to hit Citadel on broadside enemy BB at 90 degrees angle at 5 km - he is stationary
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to hit Citadel on broadside enemy BB at 90 degrees angle at 15 km - he is moving
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to hit Citadel on broadside enemy BB at 90 degrees angle at 10 km - he is moving
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to hit Citadel on broadside enemy BB at 90 degrees angle at 5 km - he is moving
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 60 degrees angle at 15 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 60 degrees angle at 10 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 60 degrees angle at 5 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 45 degrees angle at 15 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 45 degrees angle at 10 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 45 degrees angle at 5 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 15 degrees angle at 15 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 15 degrees angle at 10 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 15 degrees angle at 5 km - he is moving towards you

etc.

 

Leo "Apollo11"

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The problem i see is that there is little to  no reward for being good so players have little to no incentive to improve.

*removal of flags for achievements

*RNG: players learn more from their failures than from their succes, RNG and shady mechanics turn everything into a gamble so they are less likely to learn when playing poorly can still lead to success and playing good can lead to failure. 

 

Edited by pepe_trueno
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2 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

What can be done?

Probably nothing. Players have always been terrible. Just lost two 'Defense of Naval Station Newport' operations in a row. Teams didn't have a clue, and that Op literally tells you what to do.

6 minutes ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

WG designed Learning / Training missions

Given the current mission structure of the game, it seems unlikely that WG is that motivated to do something like this. After all, the more knowledgeable you are about the game, the easier the grind missions are to understand and complete more efficiently, and I think that's the last thing WG wants.

Maybe if they get desperate enough and they think such missions would help the player population, then maybe? Otherwise I wouldn't count on it.

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2 minutes ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

For example:

Training players isn’t the problem. WG could offer an extended training tutorial all they want, but I’d think the vast majority (Me included) would just simply skip it. Like I said above. Most players don’t care about being good or learning game mechanics. If WG made the tutorial mandatory, it’d be the same thing. Most players would simply do what ever to pass, then just play how they want to. A mandatory tutorial would more than likely just turn players away. 
 

Most of us posters here and on discord have discussions like this because we do like to win and enjoy becoming better at the game. But we, my friends, only make a small percentage of the player base. Complaining about players playing bad or having bad stats is like complaining about other drivers on the commute to work. Yes they are bad, but other than staying off the road completely, we are just gonna have to put our big boy pants on and drive. The funny part is some players think they are much better than they actually are, and most the time are the ones most vocal about bad players.  (Not pointing fingers at you Leo). 

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1 hour ago, Project45_Opytny said:

The game is at least relatively difficult to learn and master, and there has been a lack of proper introductory courses

That doesn't explain why some beginner players develop into unicums while others become red-stat millstones. If lack of introductory courses is the problem, then we all start with the same handicap. But some overcome it while others don't.

I repeat: you cannot force people to become competent.

1 hour ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Yep... it is so much better ignoring the problem and do nothing.

What are you going to do? What could you do that would actually make a difference? Because I can tell you right now, all the beginner tutorials in the world won't work if a player doesn't give a [rhymes with luck].

In the meantime: uninstall MMM and you will be a lot less stressed.

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There is no solution that WG would accept.

Heck, they don't even see the current state as a problem.

After all, low skill players are likely more profitable to WG.

The only real solution for us is to migrate to better games...or make / support direct competitors.

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I'm still looking for that tutorial on how to best utilize the training room as a newbie.  

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Hi all,

45 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

Training players isn’t the problem. WG could offer an extended training tutorial all they want, but I’d think the vast majority (Me included) would just simply skip it. Like I said above. Most players don’t care about being good or learning game mechanics. If WG made the tutorial mandatory, it’d be the same thing. Most players would simply do what ever to pass, then just play how they want to. A mandatory tutorial would more than likely just turn players away. 
 

Most of us posters here and on discord have discussions like this because we do like to win and enjoy becoming better at the game. But we, my friends, only make a small percentage of the player base. Complaining about players playing bad or having bad stats is like complaining about other drivers on the commute to work. Yes they are bad, but other than staying off the road completely, we are just gonna have to put our big boy pants on and drive. The funny part is some players think they are much better than they actually are, and most the time are the ones most vocal about bad players.  (Not pointing fingers at you Leo). 

I don't think that vast majority would skip the Learning / Training missions if there is small incentive (like Boosters) for successful finish... hell I would play the tutorial to improve...

And I still think that it is inheritable in human nature to improve!

 

Leo "Apollo11"

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14 minutes ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

I'm still looking for that tutorial on how to best utilize the training room as a newbie.  

Most of the training room videos I have come across are really old.  FlimsyLunchTry has one that is slightly more recent and does a good job of the basics: setting up the room, inviting players, setting up the opposing ship options, etc.  

I hope this helps...

 

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1 hour ago, Type_93 said:

Nothing. The majority of the player base has no concept of the game other than shooty Pew pew pixel boats. These players enjoy the game because they get to sail their favorite historical ships into battle, they have no intentions of “learning” the game.  

This is true.

On the other hand, it's a matter of respect, when you click on the button "Fight" to try not to be a dead weight for your team.
Especially when nobody puts a knife on your throat to click on that  #@*! button.

Yeah, I know..." I have a dream..."

10 minutes ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

And I still think that it is inheritable in human nature to improve!

Well,  yes and no in this very case I fear.
Most of players tend to ignore the basics of the game. Which means they have no clue what to do. The problem is when they begin to realize that "maybe I could act another way". Then they will (probably) try and do something.
Otherwise, they will even  not notice that they are the fifth wheel of the cart...

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4 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

How can this be helped / remedied - let's openly discuss the biggest problem in WoWs - the absolute player base rock bottom degradation / decay

 

This was Brawl game - but the stats are from "Random" games - they show the real truth about WoWs player base:

loop-5-24-03-2024-10-28-37.thumb.png.3aeac15c7a142a75c7898e1b4c8c5efe.png

 

The main (and sad) point is absolutely terribad player base even with players with tens of thousands of Random games played... 😞

 

What can be done?

Can WG finally introduce some learning / training missions for players to properly learn the basics (aiming, positioning, reading minimap)?

 

Leo "Apollo11"

If you're saying the %45 and below players' are bad, that's your opinion. To me, these people are the workhorses. They're the ones who fill the fleet spots to give you a match to play.

All you have proved with the pic shown, is the overall server composition in WOWS as a whole. (Which is the following.. Using statistical tools percentiles and bell curve on population distribution).

  • %56 and above %5 percentile
    • The least active block
  • $45-%55 %90 percentile
    • The highest active block by far
  • %44 and below  the other %5 percentile.
    • the second highest active player block.

---------------------------------

Since this is a brawl match and not a Random match... Its unacceptable/unreasonable/unconscionable/indefensible to compare the two stats and come up with your conclusion.

I would also add. If you want a fair fight, brawls was never the game mode in the first place. Any notion, brawls were fair.. Are the distorted thinking of the user.

If you want some humble advice.. (take it or leave it its for your mental well being)...

  • Stop using MMM
  • Stop comparing stats from two different game modes and then say they're somehow related.. They're not.
    • Brawl MM is not Random MM and vice versa.
  • WR is not an indicator of player quality.. Especially in brawls.

I'll state this over again... There's no skill in WOWS, there's nothing to be fixed according to WG. There's no universally accepted methodology/stats, that can make fair matches AND over powered ships.

This is not a player base problem.. Its a power creep, issue... If i had to blame the player base for anything.. It would be our insatiable appetite for BIG BOOM/EXPLOSIONS. Leading to shorter and shorter matches which correlates to lower stats.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

How can this be helped / remedied - let's openly discuss the biggest problem in WoWs - the absolute player base rock bottom degradation / decay

 

This was Brawl game - but the stats are from "Random" games - they show the real truth about WoWs player base:

loop-5-24-03-2024-10-28-37.thumb.png.3aeac15c7a142a75c7898e1b4c8c5efe.png

 

The main (and sad) point is absolutely terribad player base even with players with tens of thousands of Random games played... 😞

 

What can be done?

Can WG finally introduce some learning / training missions for players to properly learn the basics (aiming, positioning, reading minimap)?

 

Leo "Apollo11"

If those terribly bad players are on the other team, then I don't see the problem.  😉 
Oh, they're on my team, too? 
Hmmm.

Well, I'll continue as I have been doing, which is not losing sleep over my win-rate.

Isn't DevStrike! building a forum area designed to help new players learn the game?

Do you plan to create a world-wide advertising campaign to inform all players about it, once it is ready and "open for business"?

Even if you were to create a world-wide advertising campaign, do you honestly believe it will cure the entire game population? 
Or will there still be some people who prefer to "do things their own way"?  🙂 
Essentially the proverb, "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink", eh?

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2 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

Yep - sad truth (another example):

warriorspath-5-24-03-2024-13-19-58.thumb.png.7e77867b7d742f9fb25cf450b6711909.png

 

But imagine that there are WG designed Learning / Training missions that give incentive to be played (i.e. player get some small reward fro successfully finishing the mission the 1st time around = 5 Boosters - every other time player can still use the Learning / Training missions but no reward will be issued)!

For example:

  • in BB You have 2 minutes to hit Citadel on broadside enemy BB at 90 degrees angle at 15 km - he is stationary
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to hit Citadel on broadside enemy BB at 90 degrees angle at 10 km - he is stationary
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to hit Citadel on broadside enemy BB at 90 degrees angle at 5 km - he is stationary
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to hit Citadel on broadside enemy BB at 90 degrees angle at 15 km - he is moving
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to hit Citadel on broadside enemy BB at 90 degrees angle at 10 km - he is moving
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to hit Citadel on broadside enemy BB at 90 degrees angle at 5 km - he is moving
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 60 degrees angle at 15 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 60 degrees angle at 10 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 60 degrees angle at 5 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 45 degrees angle at 15 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 45 degrees angle at 10 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 45 degrees angle at 5 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 15 degrees angle at 15 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 15 degrees angle at 10 km - he is moving towards you
  • in BB You have 2 minutes to cause 25K damage on enemy BB at 15 degrees angle at 5 km - he is moving towards you

etc.

 

Leo "Apollo11"

Imagine you paying WG/WOWs for the programming labor to implement these changes?  

If WOWs sees that it is in their best interest and that it will increase their playerbase and revenue streams, then they'll do whatever they can to make the revenue improve.
Otherwise....?
 

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The only way I see to somewhat fix players being bad because they can is denying them rewards for failure. Starting at some tier (like, 5), if someone does terrible. he should not get 500 base XP, not 200, not even 1. He should get zero. Same for credits. That is the only thing I can think of that might motivate unwilling people to learn, because unless they get better they will never progress. Would also help against bots. Then again it will most likely cause far too many of them to leave rather than learn, which is something I wouldn't mind, but WG would, because as with everywhere else, there are far more 'challenged' people than there are capable ones, and that majority is where the profit lies, not with the smart minority.

Or they could make it pay to play (I know this won't happen, that is just hypothetical), my personal experience is that the playerbase in pay-to-play games is much smarter than that in play-for-free games. Probably the reason why there are so many more free-to-play games, a smart playerbase also means a small playerbase which means less revenue. And WG seems to be interested solely in revenue, not in quality gameplay for their customers. Which I don't like, but is perfectly legit. They can get away with anything due to lack of competition regrettably.

Edited by Kruzenstern
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21 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

I'll state this over again... There's no skill in WOWS, there's nothing to be fixed according to WG. There's no universally accepted methodology/stats, that can make fair matches AND over powered ships.

There is no skill metric, true.

There is no level playing field, true.

WG intentionally skews the game to minimize the impact of skill, true.

WG intentionally seeks to find players who want to pull the slot machine lever and get rewarded with citadels and DevStrikes...and actively pushes away players who want to understand and teach how to win the game, very much true.

--------------------

You can improve your skill in the game to get better results (which results you want will drive what skills to improve), true.

The effect of improving will not be easily visible to other players, true...remember, no skill metric.

The idea that succeeding at the game requires no skill is an absurd position not supported by the facts. The difficulty is that there is no measure of success published by WG.

So we can't actually measure the skill of others or even ourselves well...particularly since success is in the eye of the beholder, and is not universal.

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