I suck at CVs

[Tricericon]

I didn't used to, and I don't know why. I played through the RTS Essex with a win rate of 70% and also had 70% in Midway at the time of the rework, then after it went through the new Shokaku at 67%. I didn't play WOWS between mid-2019 and June of last year, and since coming back I have been absolutely terrible in carriers, with a win percentage in the high 40s.

I've saved every replay but one of my grind through Yorktown, although I'm not sure the best way to batch upload them. I'll do so tonight after work if someone leaves instructions. The longest one - most material to work with, I figure - is attached to this post; I don't recall if it was a win or a loss. I'd like to figure out what I'm doing wrong before settling my Essex build. Reading the "Carrier 101" stuff and watching high-level streamers hasn't done the job.

My self analysis is basically this:
- My aim is very poor, especially with rockets. I'm not sure how to correct this.
- I'm having difficulty analyzing if I'm picking my targets well, which suggests I am likely not.
- I'm leaning as heavily on tactical squadrons as I can, since launching one resets the timer. I may be over plane-managing and therefore under-utilizing my heavy hitting torpedo bombers.
- My positioning was clearly too aggressive in Independence, so I may have overcompensated in Yorktown.
- I'm only using fighters and smoke on "targets of opportunity", and not systematically.
- When the choice presents, I'm orbiting enemy DDs so that the team can focus them down at long range rather than getting back to dealing damage. This can take some time at range or with some teammates, and I may be overdoing it.

20240420_083252_PASA028-Yorktown_22_tierra_del_fuego.wowsreplay

[HogHammer]

@Tricericon  I'm going to offer a couple of suggestions and ask AngelicCypher if he has the opportunity to review your replay (this may take a few days). 

First, when you say Essex, it rang a bell for me.  About two weeks ago, AC did a stream, mostly of the Essex.  This "may" help out a little via observation and any questions that may have come up in chat.

Here is the link:  https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2118191941?t=00h04m30s

The other link is to his YouTube channel.  Lots of CV-related information.  AngelicCypher - YouTube

At one time, I did play CVs, but nowadays, you would not want me on your team as a CV captain.  AC does a fantastic job explaining and teaching.  On top of that, he is one of the better CV players in the game.

I hope this at least gives you a little direction, and I'll see if I can get AC to review your replay with feedback.  He's pretty busy with RL stuff, so again, it may take a few days.

Addition to comments:  Watched the replay and see it was the Yorktown.  I'll see what I can dig up on the Yorktown)

[Justin_Simpleton]

This is good advice.  Unfortunately, I'm not ready at this time to delve into this information but I would like to at a later time.  How does one put this information in a box to examine later and how is the category defined to know what keywords are needed?

[Wolfswetpaws]

I think part of the problem is that the game is changing too much and too often.
Youtube chanel content creators have published a number of videos which have been helpful, but are now from one to 4 years old and becoming outdated.

The most recent proposed changes (in the dev-blog) exacerbate this phenomena.

So, what's left? 
Essentially, some principles of how to CV.
Make one's planes healthier and faster via ship upgrades and Captain's skill.
Perform reconnaisance early and thoroughly to give one's team a good initial picture of the red-team's deployment on the map.
Try to find and thwart the plans of sneaky ships (DD's and Submarines) while preventing the opposing CV's from doing the same to your team-mates.
Control the "vision game", eh?  (The problem is that the proposed dev-blog changes are going throw this aspect of CV play out the window and into the "hot garbage" heap.)
Target ships which are poorly positioned and/or are the closest and most dangerous threat.
Keep the CV hull moving and as close to the action as possible without getting detected (in order to reduce the time planes need to travel to their intended targets).

Practice the "leading-ahead" of intended targets with various aerial ordnance, from all possible angles, in training rooms, scenario operations and asymmetric and random battles.

Practice the hitting and dis-lodging of "campers" (who have beached their ships on a favorite island with the intention of using the island as a shield while they rain gunfire upon your teammates).

Try to discern and disrupt the red-teams plans of attack whenever feasible.

Communicate with teammates effectively, while blocking the salty team-mates who behave in a manner that is more annoying than helpful.

It's a tough gig, sometimes.  Good luck.  🙂 

Edited April 23 by Wolfswetpaws

[Tricericon]

8 hours ago, HogHammer said:

@Tricericon  I'm going to offer a couple of suggestions and ask AngelicCypher if he has the opportunity to review your replay (this may take a few days). 

First, when you say Essex, it rang a bell for me.  About two weeks ago, AC did a stream, mostly of the Exxex.  This "may" help out a little via observation and any questions that may have come up in chat.

Here is the link:  https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2118191941?t=00h04m30s

The other link is to his YouTube channel.  Lots of CV-related information.  AngelicCypher - YouTube

At one time, I did play CVs, but nowadays, you would not want me on your team as a CV captain.  AC does a fantastic job explaining and teaching.  On top of that, he is one of the better CV players in the game.

I hope this at least gives you a little direction, and I'll see if I can get AC to review your replay with feedback.  He's pretty busy with RL stuff, so again, it may take a few days.

 

I'm in no hurry for anything. I'll have a look at his stuff when I have the chance. Thanks!

[Tricericon]

7 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I think part of the problem is that the game is changing too much and too often.
Youtube chanel content creators have published a number of videos which have been helpful, but are now from one to 4 years old and becoming outdated.

The most recent proposed changes (in the dev-blog) exacerbate this phenomena.

So, what's left? 
Essentially, some principles of how to CV.
Make one's planes healthier and faster via ship upgrades and Captain's skill.
Perform reconnaisance early and thoroughly to give one's team a good initial picture of the red-team's deployment on the map.
Try to find and thwart the plans of sneaky ships (DD's and Submarines) while preventing the opposing CV's from doing the same to your team-mates.
Control the "vision game", eh?  (The problem is that the proposed dev-blog changes are going throw this aspect of CV play out the window and into the "hot garbage" heap.)
Target ships which are poorly positioned and/or are the closest and most dangerous threat.
Keep the CV hull moving and as close to the action as possible without getting detected (in order to reduced the time planes need to travel to their intended targets).

Practice the "leading-ahead" of intended targets with various aerial ordnance, from all possible angles, in training rooms, scenario operations and asymmetric and random battles.

Practice the hitting and dis-lodging of "campers" (who have beached their ships on a favorite island with the intention of using the island as a shield while they rain gunfire upon your teammates).

Try to discern and disrupt the red-teams plans of attack whenever feasible.

Communicate with teammates effectively, while blocking the salty team-mates who behave in a manner that is more annoying than helpful.

It's a tough gig, sometimes.  Good luck.  🙂 

I'm landing shots reliably in Asymmetries, where I ground out the stock modules, to the point it makes me wonder if I over practiced on bots. 

[Volron]

3 hours ago, Tricericon said:

I'm landing shots reliably in Asymmetries, where I ground out the stock modules, to the point it makes me wonder if I over practiced on bots. 

Well, if your intent is to go into Random's and what-not with a CV, then you should start playing those modes at this point.  Landing reliable hits is only part of the game, now you need to face off against folks who'll take your presence into account, activating DFAA and/or sector AA, maneuver to avoid your attacks, etc.  Even bots set to "max" in the training room won't be as pro-active in dealing with incoming strikes (if at all).

 

Another thing you will need to take note of is when subs are in the match.  You'll need to be much more careful on what you are doing with your cv as the "standard" methods will likely not work against a good sub player (picking an island to hide behind as prime example).  Overall it is a double-edged sword.

On one edge, you can hide behind an island only to get picked off by a sub and/or sub spotting you (which they have zero issues out spotting you).  Though this means you can sit back and strike with near immunity against ship guns.

On the other edge, sticking with your team opens you up to more risk of being spotted by a sub (not to mention other ships), and of course puts you in a position to get torpedoed more easily.  This does mean you can get your strikes out faster however.

Another way of putting it, Pick your poison.

Ashkance has some solid video's on how to CV.  Here is something on AA for example.  Do note: These video's are a little long in the tooth, but should still be viable if only to give you some basics.
 

 

 

Point is: Bots are one thing, a thinking person is another (though it would seem more than a few forgot the "thinking" part).
 

Edited April 23 by Volron

[BOBTHEBALL]

18 hours ago, Tricericon said:

My self analysis is basically this:
- My aim is very poor, especially with rockets. I'm not sure how to correct this.
- I'm having difficulty analyzing if I'm picking my targets well, which suggests I am likely not.
- I'm leaning as heavily on tactical squadrons as I can, since launching one resets the timer. I may be over plane-managing and therefore under-utilizing my heavy hitting torpedo bombers.
- My positioning was clearly too aggressive in Independence, so I may have overcompensated in Yorktown.
- I'm only using fighters and smoke on "targets of opportunity", and not systematically

1. Practice on bots in OPs, Assym, co-op

2. This comes with experience. DDs > Radar cruisers > lonely ships > BBs > CVs

3. Your torpedo bombers are amazing, use them more

4. Learn to position again, take your time with this

5. Use smoke wherever it helps you and your team and fighters mostly for spotting and trapping enemy CV

[Tricericon]

10 hours ago, Volron said:

Well, if your intent is to go into Random's and what-not with a CV, then you should start playing those modes at this point.  Landing reliable hits is only part of the game, now you need to face off against folks who'll take your presence into account, activating DFAA and/or sector AA, maneuver to avoid your attacks, etc.  Even bots set to "max" in the training room won't be as pro-active in dealing with incoming strikes (if at all).
 

I've been in Randoms mostly, I just hate taking "incomplete" ships out in Randoms or Ranked so I used Asymmetries to grind out the upgraded hull and planes before "going live".

10 hours ago, Volron said:

Ashkance has some solid video's on how to CV.  Here is something on AA for example.  Do note: These video's are a little long in the tooth, but should still be viable if only to give you some basics.
 

I'll give it a look!

5 hours ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

1. Practice on bots in OPs, Assym, co-op

Is there a quick rule for which ships to aim rockets at hull and which to aim at superstructure?

5 hours ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

2. This comes with experience. DDs > Radar cruisers > lonely ships > BBs > CVs

That's a little different than the priorities I've been using, so maybe I can improve here. I'll dog DDs all day if they aren't under AA and I have an ally to shoot them, but I rarely drop on them unless I'm desperate as my hit percentage on DDs is pathetic. I've also had fat, juicy BBs higher on the list.

5 hours ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

5. Use smoke wherever it helps you and your team and fighters mostly for spotting and trapping enemy CV

On Yorktown line I've been focusing on fighter trapping, but I'm not at all convinced I'm choosing when to take the time to intercept vs when to press home my own attacks well. With other CVs I generally use my fighters mostly as spotters.

[Volron]

7 hours ago, Tricericon said:

Is there a quick rule for which ships to aim rockets at hull and which to aim at superstructure?

That depends on a lot of factors.  I'll give you what I know from using CV's a lot in Op's (WARNING: Wall of text incoming):

 

HVAR's (US aircraft):

• Destroyers: Try to aim center mass as that will maximize your chances of hitting them with a lot of rockets.
• Light Cruisers: I tend to aim for the upper belt to maximize hits.
• Heavy Cruisers: Same as light cruisers, though on some of the heavier cruisers I will aim just below superstructure.
• Battleships: Just below superstructure to maximize hits.
• Carriers: Just below the flight deck to maximize hits.
• Submarines: Like destroyers, aim center mass.

All in all you want to try and land as many rockets on target as you can, as that is where their punch lies.

Tiny Tim's (US aircraft):

• Destroyers: Just hit them, as even one good hit with one rocket will hurt.
• Light Cruisers: I aim for the upper belt to maximize damage.
• Heavy Cruisers: Like light cruisers, I aim for the upper belt.
• Battleships: This really depends on the battleship.  But I usually aim for just above the upper belt, lower part of the superstructure to maximize hits as well as damage.  On some battles ships, hitting the bow/stern can also knock a bit of HP off.
• Carriers: I tend to aim just below the flight deck.
• Submarines: Aim center mass as that will be the best chance you can score hits.

Tiny Tim's are very hard hitting rockets but can be a PITA to score hits with, especially DD's that are paying attention.  When they hit, oh boy, do they tend to do work.

 

UK Rockets:

In general I don't find UK rockets to be all the spectacular with one exception, Colossus.  Her AP rockets will do a lot of damage, even to battleships.  I will give you my advice on how to use these.  As for the standard rockets, aim just below center mass to get as many hits as possible.  One thing I have noted is that they have a lot of fire chance, so to me they are more of a DoT type rocket.

Colossus:

• Destroyers: Do not bother, but if you have no real choice, aim center mass.  While they a lot of them will over pen, they can still knock out engines with a good strike.
• Light Cruisers: Aim for the waterline for citadel's.  This is their bread n butter, and they are extremely good at dumpster'ing light cruisers.
• Heavy Cruisers: Again, aim for the waterline but note where citadel's are.  For example: On Ibuki you want to aim under the torpedo launchers to score citadel's reliably.  Some cruisers like Hindenburg (if you are unlucky to see one with Colossus), you will very unlikely citadel her, so aim for the upper belt.
• Battleships: Depending on battleships, I aim for upper belt/below superstructure.
• Carriers: This one will vary as well, but I find aiming just under the flight deck will net me the most damage.  Some CV's (like the Colossus and Aquila) can be citadel's by the rockets.
• Submarines: Like destroyers, do not bother.  Again, if you no real choice, aim center mass.

Basically (if you have her or intend to get her), Colossus's rockets excel at citadel'ing light cruisers and even some heavy cruisers.  These will be your primary targets with her.

 

KM Rockets:

• Destroyers: Do not bother unless left with no real choice, but I've found that going for a bow/stern attack tends to net me more "solid hits" than from broadside which will net more hits, but overpen's almost every time.
• Light Cruisers: Aim for waterline and you will citadel them for a lot of their HP.
• Heavy Cruisers: Not many heavy cruisers are susceptible to citadel's from their rockets, so aiming for the upper belt is your best bet.
• Battleships: Aim for the lower part of the superstructure for more reliable damage.
• Carriers: On some CV's you can go for the waterline for citadel's, but more reliable damage is just under the flight deck.
• Submarines: Same as destroyers.

All in all I like KM rockets, but are very much reliant on target type.  Light cruisers should be your primary target, however as you gain experience you'll be able to know how to attack what ship type.

 

IJN Rockets:

• Destroyers: Aim center mass as they can do a bit of damage. They tend to knock out modules fairly well.
• Light Cruisers: Aim for upper belt/lower superstructure.
• Heavy Cruisers: Aim for lower superstructure.
• Battleships: Aim for lower/upper superstructure.
• Carriers: Aim just below the flight deck.
• Submarines: Aim center mass.

While they don't hit as hard, I find them consistent on knocking out AA on ships, and modules on destroyers.  They feel a bit slower to me than the other nations though, and their attack craft are squishy as hell.

 

RU Rockets:

• Destroyers: Aim center mass.  If you score a good hit, they can flat out destroy a destroyer, if not chuck the hell out of them.
• Light Cruisers: Aim for lower/upper belt.
• Heavy Cruisers: Aim for upper belt.
• Battleships: Aim between upper belt and lower superstructure.
• Carriers: Aim between upper belt and below flight deck.
• Submarines: Aim center mass.

RU Rockets are hard hitting, if not the hardest hitting rockets (Russian Bias confirmed ).  They will do a lot of damage if you can score a solid hit.  Like Tiny Tim's, they can be a PITA to score hits with though.

 

You may have noticed that I said "center mass" a lot.  Basically you are not aiming for a specific hit, but instead are going for as many hits.  Submarines are one of those ship types where just hitting them is call a win in my book.  All in all they are easy to learn but hard to master.  Once you master them though, they can be very satisfying to use.

 

Now do note that this is based solely off of me not playing Random's and what-not.  I only play Co-Op, Operations and Asm so take this advice as you see fit.

Edited April 23 by Volron

[Wolfswetpaws]

6 hours ago, Tricericon said:

Is there a quick rule for which ships to aim rockets at hull and which to aim at superstructure?

I'm not certain exactly how "quick" the "rules of thumb" might be, but I'll offer some of my thoughts.

1.  The High-Explosive rockets are "general purpose" in nature.  One can use them on any target. 
But they'll shatter on a BB's armor, so aim for the superstructure instead of the armor.
If a cruiser is well-armored, or you think it might be, then treat it like a battleship.
DD's, Submarines (if they're surfaced) and some light-cruisers may be vulnerable to H.E. rockets from any angle (if you can hit them?).
For CV's it will depend upon their armor schemes.  But, scoring hits between the armor belt and the flight-deck is probably going to be optimal.

2.  The "firing delay" varies from rocket plane to rocket plane and while there are some "trends" in certain nations, it won't hurt to check the actual amount of time (measured in seconds) each plane/rocket combination has.
2a.  For long delays, such as 5 to 6+ seconds, I tend to only target CV's, BB's and Cruisers.  
2b.  If you become proficient enough to consistently hit player's DD's, then congratulations.  🙂 

3.  Armor-Piercing rockets.  Like the H.E., it doesn't hurt to know if your potential target is well-armored or not.
Thin-skinned targets are likely to result in over-penetrations.
Some thin-skinned targets (such as certain light-cruisers) can be successfully attacked from an angle (instead of broadside) and the rocket may arm inside the ship for maximum damage.

4.  After the "delay" was introduced to rocket-firing attacks, I learned how to use torpedoes to hit DD's that were now able to wiggle and dodge my rocket attacks.
4a.  Nowadays, my rockets are an option for specific targets or something I sortie while my torpedo planes or bombers are being regenerated and re-armed.  

Hope that helps.

[Volron]

@Tricericon

@Wolfswetpaws has given some very good information as well.  That is something that didn't cross my mind.

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 minutes ago, Volron said:

@Tricericon

@Wolfswetpaws has given some very good information as well.  That is something that didn't cross my mind.

I was reading what you wrote and thinking "great minds think alike".  🙂 

https://www.devstrike.net/topic/3650-i-suck-at-cvs/?do=findComment&comment=48877

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

10 minutes ago, Volron said:

Now do note that this is based solely off of me not playing Random's and what-not.  I only play Co-Op, Operations and Asm.  So take this advice as you see fit.

I play CV's in randoms, Co-op, Asymmetric, Scenario Operations and in Brawls and other modes, too.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

Heretical opinion: stay in asymmetrics/co-op if you find yourself doing well there. Chip away at your goals a few thousand XP a day with grey boosters. Be in no hurry. 

[meatgrindr]

On 4/22/2024 at 9:15 AM, Wolfswetpaws said:

I think part of the problem is that the game is changing too much and too often.
Youtube chanel content creators have published a number of videos which have been helpful, but are now from one to 4 years old and becoming outdated.

     To me, this is a big problem.  A lot of the go-to info out there is outdated and simply wrong.  Especially for CV and subs.

[Tricericon]

3 hours ago, Volron said:

 

 

3 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

 

Great stuff guys, thanks.

[BOBTHEBALL]

13 hours ago, Tricericon said:

Is there a quick rule for which ships to aim rockets at hull and which to aim at superstructure?

If BB aim for superstructure unless French then aim everywhere. Otherwise on crooser aim for everywhere unless it's russian then aim for superstructure.

13 hours ago, Tricericon said:

That's a little different than the priorities I've been using, so maybe I can improve here. I'll dog DDs all day if they aren't under AA and I have an ally to shoot them, but I rarely drop on them unless I'm desperate as my hit percentage on DDs is pathetic. I've also had fat, juicy BBs higher on the list.

If you kill DD much higher chance to win game. You're capable of forcing your way through AA. And well you're losing because you're focusing BBs which is not a smart play to make especially when you could probably bend over and spank cruisers who are hiding behind islands and such. BBs while yes are easy to strike aren't the best option always.

[Wolfswetpaws]

14 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Heretical opinion: stay in asymmetrics/co-op if you find yourself doing well there. Chip away at your goals a few thousand XP a day with grey boosters. Be in no hurry. 

Perhaps less "heretical" and more of a lifestyle preference?  🙂

There's nothing wrong with figuring-out where one enjoys the game the most.

But, there have been times when I wanted to earn extra credits or test my mettle.  So, into "randoms" I went.
Also, sailing in a division with Twitch streamers may involve going into whichever game mode they're grinding at the time.
 

[Ensign Cthulhu]

13 hours ago, meatgrindr said:

     To me, this is a big problem.  A lot of the go-to info out there is outdated and simply wrong.  Especially for CV and subs.

This is why I like to watch streamers play them.