Seychelles - They should take it out of rotation

[Musket22]

Co-op 9 v 9 obviously 

Spawned on 'A' side.

Not one red ship came that way, so... 

A totally uselss un-FUN & un-ENGAGING map to sail on.

[Admiral_Karasu]

Strange, I don't actually recall every seeing this map. I should remember if I had seen a Ferris wheel and an ocean liner somewhere.

[Wulf_Ace]

yeah i think co op has a problem with this map, but WG is not playing their own game to know that 

[Aethervox]

Any admonition to remove maps is a personal player 'whine'. This whining has resulted in numerous map removals which have all been, ultimately, detrimental.

This has happened for years in both WoT (incredibly often) & now, sometimes in WoWS. Time to bury this Vampire with a wooden stake to its heart. 😁

[Efros]

It's a joke with the current bot AI, if they all lemming to one of the outlying caps and you're at the one they are avoiding you can end up with a zero damage game. Even worse than Two Brothers or Shatter.

[Wrath_of_Deadguy]

It's more a problem with the AI than it is with the map, although the map design frequently compounds the problem.

The key to mitigating WG's bad AI is simply knowing what is about to happen before you've committed to an empty lane- so bring up the team list at the start of the game, and match the lowest-HP ships on your team with where they've spawned on the map. Whichever flank has the lowest-HP ship is far more often than not where the bots will go, so you should plot the best intercept course you're able to at the beginning of the match if you spawn on the opposite flank from the lowest-HP ship (especially if you're in something slow).

If one flank has a sub and the other flank doesn't, that's probably where the bots will be heading. If there is a chonky T10 DD on one flank with 25k HP, and a T8 DD on the other flank with only 15k HP, most of the bots will likely head for the side with the T8. Plan accordingly. Get your rudder hard over as soon as you have control, pop your speed boost if you have it, and try to salvage what you can of the situation by intercepting in the center (or, worst case if you get Two Brothers or another map with an extremely cluttered middle, just cut all the way across the backline to the opposite flank).

Some maps are more hostile than others when this happens, but you can usually at least avoid getting completely skunked if you have some advance warning that the game's planning to screw you.

Edited March 30 by Wrath_of_Deadguy

[SunkCostFallacy]

I have to admit that I don't think WG could have come up with a worse map/spawn/strat than we see in Seychelles when it comes to COOP.

The stupid thing is that it could be easily fixed ... just spawn all the slow ships in the middle and right flank, and only put fast ships on the left (i.e. big island) flank.

As it is, I've been grinding some slow BBs and more often than not when I spawn into Seychelles in one, I get two conditions which almost guarantee that I'm going to have a crap match:

I spawn on the left side of the map

AND

I spawn in with one or more ships which are much faster than I am, and they invariably have torpedoes.

So I'm faced with the choice ... try to get this wallowing tub to the middle before everything there is dead, or go forward and hope that the guy(s) who spawned with me get chewed up before they've killed the bots.

Whereas if I spawn in the middle or right hand side of the map, even in a BB with all the streamlining of a brick and an engine room where the hamsters are on strike ... I'll still get the chance to shoot at something.

[Wrath_of_Deadguy]

Forcing faster ships (ie those with less HP) to only spawn on the flanks would make the problem worse, not better, unless the AI behavior was changed as well to alter the bots' targeting priorities. Yes, putting the BBs in the middle would make it easier for them to reposition, but it wouldn't help anyone else.

The better solution would be to force subs to only spawn in the center; currently they will always spawn on the flanks unless they're in a div with something that isn't a sub (and even then, the div will usually end up on a flank), and to likewise force lone DDs to spawn center. The bots would still squirrel after subs and low-HP DDs the way they do now, but they would still end up in firing range of the positions they abandoned to get to them.

The best solution, of course, would be to eliminate that behavior from the bots altogether, and force them to go after the nearest green ship first, rather than the one with the smallest HP pool... or to not have them key in on player positions before they're spotted at all, but rather to head for the objectives or the opposing spawn points in their own lanes until they've actually spotted something to shoot at.

But, naturally, WG is never going to do any of that.

Edited March 30 by Wrath_of_Deadguy

[SunkCostFallacy]

3 hours ago, Wrath_of_Deadguy said:

Forcing faster ships (ie those with less HP) to only spawn on the flanks would make the problem worse, not better, unless the AI behavior was changed as well to alter the bots' targeting priorities. Yes, putting the BBs in the middle would make it easier for them to reposition, but it wouldn't help anyone else.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.

My experience in Seychelles is that DDs on the left flank could and would reach the middle in time to participate in the fight.

It wouldn't matter where the bots went, as they would have to come into range of the slow ships in the middle and the fast ships could easily get into range.

As it stands ... in Domination mode the right flank and middle are reachable if you get your ship between the two capture circles. It's only the left flank which is effectively isolated by that big island that is a major problem.

In Standard mode, the cap circle is in the middle and is supposed to be the goal of the ships in the game so bots should be heading to it.

I haven't had a game on Seychelles in Arms Race, but I imagine it would just be a farce.

[Wrath_of_Deadguy]

Bot squirreling occurs because low-HP ships spawn on the flanks; leaving them there, or even guaranteeing that they spawn there, does not solve the problem. Shift BB spawns to the middle while leaving DDs and subs on the flanks, and slower cruisers on the flanks- and there are plenty of cruisers with top speeds in the same range as BBs at their tiers (Graf Spee, Boise, Hampshire, to name a few)- would get screwed just as hard as flank-spawned BBs do now. Or even moreso, because their main battery ranges are much shorter than a BB's. Only BBs benefit from that change; everyone else but CVs get the short end of the stick, and the burden of the current problem simply shifts to a different set of players instead of going away.

Spawning subs and DDs in the middle, on the other hand, is really only detrimental to the careless DD YOLO charge- it's a net improvement for everything else. If the lowest-HP ships- DDs and subs- spawned in the middle, the bots would go to the middle more often, and thus be within reach of all three spawns.

[SunkCostFallacy]

18 minutes ago, Wrath_of_Deadguy said:

Bot squirreling occurs because low-HP ships spawn on the flanks; leaving them there, or even guaranteeing that they spawn there, does not solve the problem. Shift BB spawns to the middle while leaving DDs and subs on the flanks, and slower cruisers on the flanks- and there are plenty of cruisers with top speeds in the same range as BBs at their tiers (Graf Spee, Boise, Hampshire, to name a few)- would get screwed just as hard as flank-spawned BBs do now. Or even moreso, because their main battery ranges are much shorter than a BB's. Only BBs benefit from that change; everyone else but CVs get the short end of the stick, and the burden of the current problem simply shifts to a different set of players instead of going away.

Spawning subs and DDs in the middle, on the other hand, is really only detrimental to the careless DD YOLO charge- it's a net improvement for everything else. If the lowest-HP ships- DDs and subs- spawned in the middle, the bots would go to the middle more often, and thus be within reach of all three spawns.

First ... you keep talking about flanks plural, and I've been clear that I'm talking about only changing the permissible ships for the left spawn, i.e. the ones that are above and below the big island.

More importantly I specified that only FAST ships should be spawned in those two locations. That means the entire premise of your comment about slow cruisers is irrelevant ... because they wouldn't BE on the left flank.

We're discussing a hypothetical here, because we know that WG won't change a thing. That means that we don't have to worry about an even spread across all the spawns ... if there only one or two FAST ships in a match, then they get the left spawn, and everyone else gets spread amongst the middle and right hand spawn.

In which case it literally doesn't matter WHERE the bots go ... if every bot decides to head to the left flank they are still going to be in firing range of the slow ships for a reasonable length of time. That means that the slow BBs and the slow cruisers you mentioned will still get action because the bots HAVE to be within their range to get to the left spawn.

Let's work through it:

We'll put two DDs (i.e. with low HP, as you specified) in each of the left spawns ... two players and two bots, in the spawns above and below the island.

We'll spread the rest of the teams across the middle and right flank spawn positions.

If your theory is correct and the bots from the middle and right spawn decide to head to the left flank, what path would they take? Would they all spawn in and immediately turn and head to the left edge of the map? No ... because that's not where the 2 low HP DDs you're saying that they want to target are ... they are below or above the island where they spawned. The bots would head towards the middle of the map, while generally 'drifting' to the left edge of the map as that is the straightest route to their destination because there is a huge island in the way.

And that means all the bots would come into range of the players.

AND it means that the players in the DDs who spawned on the left side could get to where the action is going to be, because as I specified, they are in FAST ships. Fast being relative to the rest of the ships, obviously.

Hopefully that will clarify things.

[Wrath_of_Deadguy]

There is no code presently in the game that could allocate ships to spawn points based on their top speeds. That is a total fantasy. Pie in the sky. There is only code which allocates ships to spawn points based on type- CV, BB, cruiser, DD, sub- leaving us to work only with the average characteristics of each type to determine what should spawn where. WG adding in new code to create a new set of spawn parameters is far less plausible than them simply editing which ship types spawn where, which is something they have done before- as recently as a few patches ago, when they widened the spacing between spawns.

And the bots' behavior isn't "theory," at this point. The bots do go after ships with lower HP. They've been doing this literally since subs hit the live servers. They do it right from the start of the match, which is why we get the behavior we're observing: bot BBs that are halfway across the map before they're spotted; DDs and cruisers that are on direct courses for a sub or DD on the opposite flank long before it's been spotted; bot CVs that zero in on the lowest-HP DD or sub before anybody is close enough to spot anything. Bot squirreling does not happen, or happens to a far lesser degree (some bots abandon the flank, but not all of them) in matches where the HP pools of the subs or DDs on the flanks are closely matched or identical. If the lowest-HP green ship spawns right, the bots go right. If it spawns left, the bots go left. Now that subs are fully integrated, spawn in nearly every match, are almost always the lowest-HP ships in the game, and only spawn on the flanks, the bots almost never go center. That is not a coincidence. You don't need to see the code to recognize what is happening and why. It is a consistent, observable, repeatable result, on any map you care to name. It happens on Seychelles; it happens on Estuary; it happens on Ocean.

This is not a map-specific problem; thus, the solution can't just be based on this particular map with a very long, tall island blocking LOS on just one flank. Fixing the problem on just this one map would break other maps. Other maps are blocked by high cover on the opposite side of the map, or in the center; the optimal solution for Seychelles would be counterproductive on other maps. Likewise, fixing the problem just for BBs- on average, quite slow, bearing in mind that top speed is not coded in as a spawn parameter- would break the game for cruisers (and for the sub spawning opposite a lower-tier or lower-HP sub), absent additional coding work that has not been done. 

I'm telling you what a practical solution looks like- something WG could implement easily, with no new code, as a spreadsheet adjustment. Put the lowest-HP ships (subs and DDs) in the middle, and that sends the bots to a location where anyone, at any spawn, regardless of what they're sailing, can maneuver to get shots on them. Put them on a flank, and the opposite flank gets shafted, no matter what other changes you make.

Hence, my solution: spawn the squishiest types in the middle, with no other adjustment, to lure the bots to the middle. It's a quick fix, and an easy one, that would yield the most consistent results, with minimal effort on WG's part, and the fewest negative consequences, on the greatest number of maps. Plus... anything else requires coding work. Period.

Please, prove me wrong.

[invicta2012]

It is the worst map for Co-op, for all the reasons people have outlined. If you spawn in a slow ship on one of the flanks, put the autopilot on and go and make some tea - if there's a DD on that side (and they're not incompetent) then there is nothing for you to do. The AI does need a bit of updating - as it should - because often it's not the maps which are at fault, it's the utterly predictable movement of the red ships. With this being such a growth / focus area in the tech industry at the moment, it's ludicrous WG aren't doing more. 

[SunkCostFallacy]

2 hours ago, Wrath_of_Deadguy said:

There is no code presently in the game that could allocate ships to spawn points based on their top speeds.

 

 

Ok - last reply because, quite frankly, this is quite tedious.

1. If you reply, QUOTE, so the person you are replying to knows that you've replied. Otherwise I have to check the bleeding thread to find out that you've responded.

2. This IS a discussion about a single map ... Seychelles. If you want to talk about other maps, perhaps you should start you own thread.

3. Your claim that bots all head to the lowest XP ship is actually unproven. I've had multiple matches today where that DID NOT OCCUR. Sorry ... unless you actually have access to, or reliable information from someone with access to, the code ... it's a theory. Just play in any COOP match where there is a single sub, and watch for the bots on the far flank who don't go steaming over to the other flank. Sorry mate ... just because you think it's fact, doesn't mean it is. And to shortcut any response I'll tell you ... I don't care if you find 500 players who swear on the life of their firstborn that it's happening ... because my observations say that it does NOT happen in every game. Given the number of matches I've played, I'll put more credence in my observations over your claims.

4. My solution was proposed for Seychelle. Given that I didn't suggest that WG make the same changes on the other map, everything you said was (again) irrelevant. The fact that you keep trying to move the goalposts means you desperately want to win what you perceive as an argument. I'm afraid that I have to tell you that this is not an argument. What this has been is me trying to explain to someone who clearly does not get the conversation:

• This is a discussion on HYPOTHETICAL fixes for the problems on the Seychelles map. Frankly I favor dropping it from the rotation because I think it's crap.
• WG are NOT going to pay any attention to what we say here.
• I don't perceive the problems you do on the other maps. Even in my Agincourt. I don't find Two Brothers all that problematic either.

And finally two points:

1. I don't need to prove you wrong ... because nothing you said is relevant.

2. Your time is up.

[YouSatInGum]

On 3/29/2024 at 2:40 PM, Admiral_Karasu said:

Strange, I don't actually recall every seeing this map. I should remember if I had seen a Ferris wheel and an ocean liner somewhere.

Probably because it's a dumpster fire of map, so they have it set to show up infrequently.

It's a low tier map at best... hard to believe that it was designed to be a high tier map....  but goes to show the Ukraine war has far reaching (even if indirect) consequences.

[Admiral_Karasu]

4 hours ago, YouSatInGum said:

Probably because it's a dumpster fire of map, so they have it set to show up infrequently.

It's a low tier map at best... hard to believe that it was designed to be a high tier map....  but goes to show the Ukraine war has far reaching (even if indirect) consequences.

I might try it in the training room, just to go for a bit of sightseeing with a really quick ship. Or maybe even by air...

[AdmiralThunder]

I like the map myself; Co-op and Randoms. 

At least you can shoot over the islands in areas if the bots run the backside unlike the horrible crap show that is Shatter. 

[Unlooky]

It's not the worst map but it's definitely one of the lower quality ones. Maps that have a massive island blocking shots and movement aren't good. This isn't WoT where you can get away with a three corridor map and call it a day. Solomon Islands and Two Brothers also suffer from this issue. It makes the games feel a lot smaller since you are essentially playing two separate matches at the flanks, and rotations take so long to perform. Still not as horrible as Okinawa or Ocean. 

[SolitudeFreak]

8 hours ago, Unlooky said:

Still not as horrible as Okinawa or Ocean. 

For the purposes of Co-op, I'd rather see Ocean more often than some of those three corridor maps (looking at you, Two Brothers).

Given that Co-op and Randoms play completely differently, I wish the rules for maps and spawning didn't have to be carbon copies of each other.

[Admiral_Karasu]

10 minutes ago, SolitudeFreak said:

For the purposes of Co-op, I'd rather see Ocean more often than some of those three corridor maps (looking at you, Two Brothers).

Given that Co-op and Randoms play completely differently, I wish the rules for maps and spawning didn't have to be carbon copies of each other.

I'd just rather see Ocean. period.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

On 3/29/2024 at 7:26 PM, Efros said:

It's a joke with the current bot AI, if they all lemming to one of the outlying caps and you're at the one they are avoiding you can end up with a zero damage game. Even worse than Two Brothers or Shatter.

Even Shatter doesn't quite cut you off as badly as Two Brothers does. I'd rather have Shatter than a map like North or Northern Lights, especially in co-op, where if you pick a lane with few or no bots you will get to do nothing. In a PVP game, you mostly still have time to relocate somewhere useful and get back in the fight. 

I once explicitly messaged someone in port after a co-op battle in Seychelles to tell him that I had declined to report him for his absolute garbage game in a slow BB, where he did negligible damage and scored Base XP in double figures, because I'd seen exactly what the spawns had done to him and it wasn't his fault. 

Subjectively it seems to me to be getting better, with fewer occurrences where the far-left spawn is completely empty of bots, but there are better maps for co-op unless WG enforces a three-bot spawn on that flank (the other is more open, and accessible to longer-ranged ships that spawn in the middle).

I would also like to see Ocean more often.

[Unlooky]

It's absolutely insane to me how people will complain about passive play while liking the most passive and boring map in the game. 

Who actually likes Ocean? Torpboat players? 

[Frostbow]

13 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

boring map in the game

We all differ in our likes and dislikes. What may be boring for one, can be absolutely liberating for another.

1 hour ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

I once explicitly messaged someone in port after a co-op battle in Seychelles to tell him that I had declined to report him for his absolute garbage game in a slow BB, where he did negligible damage and scored Base XP in double figures, because I'd seen exactly what the spawns had done to him and it wasn't his fault. 

Hilarious. Really? The thought of reporting a fellow player in Co-op crossed your mind? In Co-op?!? 

[meatgrindr]

10 hours ago, Frostbow said:

 

Hilarious. Really? The thought of reporting a fellow player in Co-op crossed your mind? In Co-op?!? 

     I compliment/report in all games modes as I feel necessary.  Additionally, didn't you just say...

"We all differ in our likes and dislikes. What may be boring for one, can be absolutely liberating for another."

Truly hilarious post.

[Frostbow]

58 minutes ago, meatgrindr said:

     I compliment/report in all games modes as I feel necessary.  Additionally, didn't you just say...

"We all differ in our likes and dislikes. What may be boring for one, can be absolutely liberating for another."

Truly hilarious post.

In case you haven't been told yet, no one is stopping you from reporting anyone in the game. If it makes you happy, why not do it? But you know what's even more hilarious?

Mixing up a simple discussion about our likes and dislikes for certain maps, with the mere thought of having to report a co-op player because he played a slow battleship. The subtle nuances escaped you as both discussions are totally unrelated. 😂