What if X country sold unfinished hull to Y country

[kriegerfaust]

Karl XIV Johan — European special premium Tier IX battleship.

Under the Treaty of Versailles, the German Navy was limited to ships with a displacement of no more than 10,000 tons; however, these restrictions did not extend to the construction of ships intended for other nations. After World War I, Germany was left with several hundred unfinished ships. Some of them were completed and sold abroad. Sweden, driven by its aim to bolster its naval forces, could explore the possibility of acquiring and completing a German battleship.

German Battleship to Spain Model A

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Sachsen_(1916)

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSpain_15-45_mkB_coastal_pic.jpg

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSpain_15-45_mkB.php

A Vickers-Armstrong design originally intended for the Brazilian battleship Riachuelo, which was cancelled in 1914. Between 1929 and 1935, Spain purchased eighteen of these guns for use as coastal artillery where they were employed in active batteries for about seventy years.

A total of four guns still survived in 2005 with three of these in working condition. As modernized at the time, these emplacements were equipped with radar, infrared and laser range finders for fire control.

On 24 September 2008, the sole remaining gun still in working condition was fired for the last time and then placed into inactive reserve. Thus ended the era of large-caliber naval weapons in active service.

Constructed of A tube, three B tubes, C tube and jacket with a short breech ring, shrunk collar and breech bush screwed into the jacket.

6"/50 (15.2 cm) Vickers-Carraca

DescriptionBased upon a Vickers design, these guns were manufactured in Spain by Carraca. They were used in various mountings on most of the light cruisers built in the 1920s and 1930s. Built to Vickers Patterns Mark T and Mark U and were of built-up construction.

 

Edited March 21 by kriegerfaust

[kriegerfaust]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_destroyer_Amiral_Sénès

152 mm/55 (6") Model 1930

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTFR_1923DT_pic.jpg

55 cm (21.65") 23D and 23DT, Toulon

 

The French destroyer Amiral Sénès was a 1916 Type Large Torpedo Boat (Großes Torpedoboot) of the Imperial German Navy during World War I. Built as SMS S113^[a][b] she was the first ship of her class to be laid down, but the second and final ship of her class to be launched.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_torpedo_boat_Premuda

152 mm/55 (6") Model 1934
152 mm/55 (6") Model 1936

53.3 cm (21") Si 270/533.4 x 7.2 "M"

Italian torpedo boat Premuda was a 1916 Type Large Torpedo Boat (Großes Torpedoboot) of the Imperial German Navy during World War I. Built as SMS V116^[a][b] she was the first ship of her class to be launched.

[kriegerfaust]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-class_cruiser

Austria-Hungary 15 cm/50 (5.9") G. L/50 K10 Škoda

7 cm/50 (2.75") K10 and K16 Skoda

United Kingdom / Britain 1.5-pdr [37 mm/43 (1.46")] Mark I

53 cm (21") L7.18

 

The contract for M was assigned to Deutsche Werke in Kiel under the construction number 263. N followed at the Kriegsmarinewerft in Wilhelmshaven, as number 129. O—construction number 606—was assigned to Germaniawerft in Kiel, but on 8 August 1939, the contract was transferred to the Kriegsmarinewerft. P was also assigned to Germaniawerft, under number 607. Q was assigned to the Schichau-Werke in Danzig, and the contract for R was awarded to the Deutsche Werke. Only the keels for M and N were laid—in 1938—but construction was halted on 19 and 21 September 1939, respectively, after the start of World War II. Both hulls were broken up on the stocks shortly thereafter.^[5]

 

Edited March 21 by kriegerfaust

[kriegerfaust]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandie-class_battleship

Spain - 38.1 cm/45 (15") Model 1926 - Vickers-Armstrong 15"/45 (38.1 cm) Mark B/30.5 cm/50 (12") VSM Mark H - 120 mm/45 (4.7") Schneider-Canet-Armstrong Model 1918 and Model 1918/1919 120 mm/45 (4.7") Vickers-Terni Model 1924- 120 mm/45 (4.7") OTO Model 1926

Russia / USSR - 14"/52 (35.6 cm) Pattern 1913 - 356 mm/52 (14") Pattern 1913 - 130 mm/50 (5.1") B13 Pattern 1936

United Kingdom / Britain - 15-inch (38.1 cm) Mark I - 6"/50 (15.2 cm) BL Mark XXII

USA - 14"/50 (35.6 cm) Mark 7, Mark 11 and Mark B - 6"/47DP (15.2 cm) Mark 16

Normandie	Ateliers et Chantiers de la Loire, St Nazaire	18 April 1913	19 October 1914	—	Incomplete, scrapped 1924–1925
Flandre	Arsenal de Brest, Brest	1 October 1913	20 October 1914	—	Incomplete, scrapped October 1924
Gascogne	Arsenal de Lorient, Lorient		20 September 1914	—	Incomplete, scrapped 1923–1924
Languedoc	Forges et Chantiers de la Gironde, Lormont	1 May 1913	1 May 1915	—	Incomplete, scrapped June 1929
Béarn	Forges et Chantiers de la Méditerranée, La Seyne-sur-Mer	5 January 1914	15 April 1920	May 1927[23]	Converted to an aircraft carrier, scrapped 1967[23]

Type	Battleship
Displacement	25,250 t (24,850 long tons) (normal) 28,270 t (27,820 long tons) (full load)
Length	176.4 m (578 ft 9 in) (o/a)
Beam	27 m (88 ft 7 in)
Draft	8.84 m (29 ft)
Installed power	32,000 PS (23,536 kW; 31,562 shp) 21 or 28 × water-tube boilers
Propulsion	4 shafts 1 × steam turbine set 2 × triple-expansion steam engines Or 2 × steam turbine sets (Béarn)
Speed	21 knots (39 km/h; 24 mph)
Range	6,600 nmi (12,200 km; 7,600 mi) at 12 knots (22 km/h; 14 mph)
Crew	1,204 as flagship
Armament	12 × 340 mm (13.4 in) guns 24 × 138.6 mm (5.5 in) guns 6 × 47 mm (1.9 in) guns 6 × 450 mm (17.7 in) torpedo tubes
Armor	Belt: 80–300 mm (3.1–11.8 in) Turrets: 300 mm (11.8 in) Conning tower: 266 mm (10.5 in)

[Lord_Slayer]

I think alot would depend on the origin of the machinery and weapons put in place.

Buying a ship from the 'winning' side of a war means there will likely be plenty of parts available for your ship down the road.

Buying one from the 'losing' side reduces the chances of replacement parts unless you could make them home grown, or replace the system with another.

I think the post-ww1 history of the Yavuz is an example of this.

[Wolfswetpaws]

On 3/21/2024 at 2:13 PM, kriegerfaust said:

What if X country sold unfinished hull to Y country

By kriegerfaust

As @Lord_Slayer correctly points out, the logistics would depend upon the circumstances.

34 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

I think alot would depend on the origin of the machinery and weapons put in place.

Buying a ship from the 'winning' side of a war means there will likely be plenty of parts available for your ship down the road.

Buying one from the 'losing' side reduces the chances of replacement parts unless you could make them home grown, or replace the system with another.

I think the post-ww1 history of the Yavuz is an example of this.

Adding to the "fun" would involve "Inch pattern" compared with "Metric pattern" for the blueprint specifications and manufacture of parts.

A nation with sufficient manufacturing technology and equipment could buy the blueprints, or reverse-engineer, and manufacture a part.
Some parts, such as battleship gun barrels, are a niche-market item and it might be expensive to develop the industry to produce them.
But, if one needs the part and decides the expense is necessary for the security of one's nation, then ... ?

[kriegerfaust]

THANKS FOR POSTING, INTRESTING TO KNOW, I ALSO FOUND OUT THAT MOST LARGE BARRELS ARE MADE OF TIGHTLY BOUND WIRES OR THAT HEAVY TURRETS USE CONRETE AS WELL AS STEEL, the more you know if anyone wants to post a refit or redesign of another nations ships feel free

[pepe_trueno]

Gneisenau by 1943 was ready to begin the conversion process but it was ordered the cessation of all work and both the main gun and de 150mm turrets got removed and converted into shore batteries. Gneisenau remained unused  until the end of the war and was sunk by its crew when the enemy army was coming.

 

had it not been sunk they could have sold the hull without the main guns and 150mm guns to someone.

 

[Gnirf]

10 hours ago, kriegerfaust said:

THANKS FOR POSTING, INTRESTING TO KNOW, I ALSO FOUND OUT THAT MOST LARGE BARRELS ARE MADE OF TIGHTLY BOUND WIRES OR THAT HEAVY TURRETS USE CONRETE AS WELL AS STEEL, the more you know if anyone wants to post a refit or redesign of another nations ships feel free

One thing to bear in mind is that ships are generally contructed and tailored to that nations specific needs and therefor it can be more expensive than you think of using a hull. Also speed/range etc needs are different. 

The cost of the hull is not so high as one think as much of the cost is arnament, guns, armour and other fittings. A KGV costed as follows (in GBP) from Burt: British battleships 1919-1945)

Hull 2.578.034

Armour 1.140.000

Machinery 1.116.153

Arnament 2.243.162

Stores and equipment 315.785

Total: 7.393.134

The Normandies were not highly regarded and obsolete. 

Not even Salamis and F. C were finished or converted.  Perhaps the most likely thing would maybe a surplus sale of RN older Battleships and cruisers after WW1 been more likely (before the WNT ofc). If so at least complete obsolete ships, but suitable for minor powers instead of pouring new wine in an old bottle (hull).

As a Swede I have sometimes thought of a buy of say two Orions in 1921 and modernize them during the 30s, so they would act as a deterrent against Soviet WW1 vintage ships or the Pocket Battleships. Say mid turret removed , more horizontal armour, bulges and better AA. The guns would even be dangerous to Scharnhorst class.  

 

Edited March 23 by Gnirf

[pepe_trueno]

1 hour ago, Gnirf said:

One thing to bear in mind is that ships are generally contructed and tailored to that nations specific needs and therefor it can be more expensive than you think of using a hull. Also speed/range etc needs are different. 

The cost of the hull is not so high as one think as much of the cost is arnament, guns, armour and other fittings. A KGV costed as follows (in GBP) from Burt: British battleships 1919-1945)

Hull 2.578.034

Armour 1.140.000

Machinery 1.116.153

Arnament 2.243.162

Stores and equipment 315.785

Total: 7.393.134

The Normandies were not highly regarded and obsolete. 

Not even Salamis and F. C were finished or converted.  Perhaps the most likely thing would maybe a surplus sale of RN older Battleships and cruisers after WW1 been more likely (before the WNT ofc). If so at least complete obsolete ships, but suitable for minor powers instead of pouring new wine in an old bottle (hull).

As a Swede I have sometimes thought of a buy of say two Orions in 1921 and modernize them during the 30s, so they would act as a deterrent against Soviet WW1 vintage ships or the Pocket Battleships. Say mid turret removed , more horizontal armour, bulges and better AA. The guns would even be dangerous to Scharnhorst class.  

 

in real life  it would not make much sense but in a game like world of warships were one does not have to deal with real life costs as long as they dont cross  certain line like slaping a quad 500mm gun on a tiny hull i think concesions can be made.

 

going back to the Gneisenau without main guns lets say they sold it for scraps to japan who turn it into a fast AA battleship by installing the 20.3 cm with beehive shells.  as a result we get a stock Gneisenau hull with the main guns replaced with fast firing  AP only 203mm with the unique perk of having 9km long range AA aura because of the beehive shells.

 

basically an illinois that trades HE for better AP ballistics and super long range AA.

 

 

Edited March 23 by pepe_trueno

[Gnirf]

1 hour ago, pepe_trueno said:

in real life  it would not make much sense but in a game like world of warships were one does not have to deal with real life costs as long as they dont cross  certain line like slaping a quad 500mm gun on a tiny hull i think concesions can be made.

 

going back to the Gneisenau without main guns lets say they sold it for scraps to japan who turn it into a fast AA battleship by installing the 20.3 cm with beehive shells.  as a result we get a stock Gneisenau hull with the main guns replaced with fast firing  AP only 203mm with the unique perk of having 9km long range AA aura because of the beehive shells.

 

basically an illinois that trades HE for better AP ballistics and super long range AA.

 

 

Ofc it is only a game, but there are also plenty of designs from f.e. Vickers if we need more ships especially from minor powers. Portuguese Battleships f.e. 

[Lord_Slayer]

14 hours ago, pepe_trueno said:

Gneisenau by 1943 was ready to begin the conversion process but it was ordered the cessation of all work and both the main gun and de 150mm turrets got removed and converted into shore batteries. Gneisenau remained unused  until the end of the war and was sunk by its crew when the enemy army was coming.

 

had it not been sunk they could have sold the hull without the main guns and 150mm guns to someone.

 

Unlikely it would have been sold.
 

Like most German and Japanese ships that survived the war, they would have been divided amongst the Allied powers. If Gneisenau had gone to the USSR, it potentially could have been rearmed with Russian guns. Anywhere else, and it would likely be used as a target or simply scrapped.

[Project45_Opytny]

4 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

Unlikely it would have been sold.
 

Like most German and Japanese ships that survived the war, they would have been divided amongst the Allied powers. If Gneisenau had gone to the USSR, it potentially could have been rearmed with Russian guns. Anywhere else, and it would likely be used as a target or simply scrapped.

During the war it would be nigh impossible to transfer a major surface warship between the Axis powers thanks to the Allied naval blockade and control of many naval chokepoints. By 1944 it has been impossible to even tow some incomplete destroyer hulls from occpuied Netherlands to Germany (in contrast the Soviets managed to tow a few incomplete cruiser and destroyer hulls to safety in the Black Sea during 1941~42), or transfer damaged cruisers from Singapore to Japan. Code breaking efforts, advance in ASW and maritime patrol aircraft has also rendered surface blockade runners unviable and blockade running submarines less viable.

Not to say Gneisenau's refit was halted (without a new bow fitted?) and she was scuttled still incomplete as a blockship in 1945 which rendered her as a "Class C" German ship: incomplete ships, scuttled ships, salvagable wrecks and seriously damaged ships that would take more than half of a year to become operational again. Both potential diplomatic fallout due to retaining a ship that was agreed by a joint US-UK-USSR commisson to be scrapped and practical difficulties of repairing an extensively damaged foreign ship without spare parts available, that may require very extensive measures like adopting Soviet-build engines as well as equiping the ship with still in developmemt main guns would render such ideas impractical.

Though this still feels more practical than somehow teleporting Gneisenau to Japan.

@pepe_trueno

You may seriously regret dumping both HE and improved autobounce for just marginally better ballistics (unless you use the Zao's "18th Year Type") if you are really playing the ship you designed, considering so many players seem to be unable to cope with SAP's autobounce mechanics and blame SAP's "inconsistency" for a rather long time after the launch of Italian cruisers.

Edited March 23 by Project45_Opytny

[pepe_trueno]

2 hours ago, Project45_Opytny said:

 

@pepe_trueno

You may seriously regret dumping both HE and improved autobounce for just marginally better ballistics (unless you use the Zao's "18th Year Type") if you are really playing the ship you designed, considering so many players seem to be unable to cope with SAP's autobounce mechanics and blame SAP's "inconsistency" for a rather long time after the launch of Italian cruisers.

i have my fair share with AP only ships mostly atlantico and almirante cochrane and while overpens on DDs and slim cruisers can be truly infuriating as long as the shells  hit the mark i can make them work. I will happily trade HE for high DPM AP (preferable with short fuse) on a hull that won't randomly explode when  large caliber AP makes contact.

beehive shells were used against ground targets and Heavy cruiser USS San Fransico with some degree of effectiveness so if needed it could be modeled as an HE with lower pen but higher area of efect and fire chance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23 by pepe_trueno