About stat - jockeys

[OT2_2]

Interesting YT - video made by "Mountbatten" about a toxic player type, who is very common on all places in WoW. Some may watch themselves in the mirror. 

 

[SunkCostFallacy]

Heh - this reminds me of a story. It was back on the old forums.  
 
A player (we'll call him Fred because I have no idea what his name was) had made a thread to complain bitterly about a match, and he was focusing on the stats of the players which had been a real stomp.
 
A few players had responded pointing out that the stats aren't the be all and end all of a match, and Fred had responded sneering at their stats. He was careful to stay within the forum rules though ... I'll give him that.
 
Then another player (we'll call him Bill) joined the thread and made a fairly innocuous comment and Fred had responded that Bill had hidden his stats, so they must be really bad.
 
Bill replied "I don't hide my stats because they are bad, I hide my stats because it drives people like you CRAZY!"
 
My inner Troll embraced that approach vigorously and my stats have been hidden ever since

Edited March 21 by SunkCostFallacy

[Unlooky]

 

Just now, SunkCostFallacy said:

Heh - this reminds me of a story. It was back on the old forums.  
 
A player (we'll call him Fred because I have no idea what his name was) had made a thread to complain bitterly about a match, and he was focusing on the stats of the players in the  which had been a real stomp.
 
A few players had responded pointing out that the stats aren't the be all and end all of a match, and Fred had responded sneering at their stats. He was careful to stay within the forum rules though ... I'll give him that.
 
Then another player (we'll call him Bill) joined the thread and made a fairly innocuous comment and Fred had responded that Bill had hidden his stats, so they must be really bad.
 
Bill replied "I don't hide my stats because they are bad, I hide my stats because it drives people like you CRAZY!"
 
My inner Troll embraced that approach vigorously and my stats have been hidden ever since

Reminds me of a thread on the Discord, where a user would not stop posting his Potato Alert (MM Monitor application) screenshots where his team had bad stats, accusing WG of match fixing. I pointed out that running PA with a hidden profile was frankly embarassing, and started posting my own screenshots where my team had a significant statistical advantage and thanking them for rigging my match. 

If you're going to statshame or even run MMM, do it with a public profile. I have absolutely 0 respect for those who can't take what they give out. 

 

[Frostbow]

This long-standing issue covered in SLM’s video is one that I think currently has no elegant solution. Player performance statistics has its own uses, such as when it is used for self-improvement, recruiting for a competitive clan, or for tracking progress in certain key areas. It also has its abuses, such as Flamu’s ‘animal research’¹, or when it is used, more commonly, to spite other players. On top of that, a player’s stats as it is currently presented in-game leaves a lot to be desired as it does not tell us a player’s win rate in a granular way, e.g., it won’t tell me my win rate in the Buffalo (my performance in that ship is on the bottom of the Marianas Trench) for the past 3 months.

I think Wargaming should address this issue once and for all. For example, when a player explores another player’s profile, what he will see should be vastly different from what it is today.

Option 1
Set by default all stats to private, and put in place a sign informing the player to contact this particular player for his stats.

Option 2
Show only a player’s Minimum, Average, and Maximum Base XP on a per tier and per ship class² basis. I find Base XP to be a much better indicator than Win Rate. I think it will tell us how consistent a player’s performance has been over the long term.

SHIP TYPE      TIER X    TIER IX 
Battleships           
Minimum BXP:      380        406
Average BXP:      900        800
Maximum BXP:    2,165      1,979
Total battles:    269        312

We have all personally carried teams (scoring 1st in terms of Base XP earned), and we have also been carried to victories despite low Base XP scores.  Even in games that were lost, players that earned the highest Base XP score in their team indicate they performed well—and we even have this carry harder thread here at Devstrike. 

Now it bears repeating that this is not a perfect solution, and any statistic can be weaponized to support toxicity, but I think the beauty of showing player's historical BXP scores in-game (instead of Win Rates) is that it will show a player's performance regardless of the outcome. Of course, the option for a private profile must remain, and existing stats must remain accessible when needed because they are useful in certain contexts, but they should be kept private by default. 

On 'toxicity'

SLM's video covers toxic behavior such as when a player brings up the stats of a another player, and then vents his frustration by attacking that player, usually someone who played poorly. However, I would also call that player who played poorly as someone who has also exhibited toxic behavior, especially when it is on the highest tiers. Remember Angry Turtle? 

On private profiles/hidden stats

It amuses me to no end when toxic players get even more toxic when they discover a player has a private profile that hides their stats. I keep my stats private because it will not help anyone, and I've been on the receiving end of toxicity because of that. As if my stats will help them improve their performance. (On the contrary my private profile could have worsened their pre-existing hypertension.)

Just very recently, I was on the St. Vincent, and there was this red Ohio who was chasing our submarine. I decided to help our submarine, and in the process of doing so, the enemy player rammed an island, putting his ship in a very serious predicament (he was most probably rattled). The enemy player eventually sunk my St. Vincent (kudos to him), but our submarine expertly avenged my ship's death by sinking the enemy Ohio not long after (kudos to the sub player as well). The Ohio player then proceeded to talk shit about our submarine as soon as he was sunk, and in 'all chat' where all players can see his toxicity. Worse, he did not stop there, and he made it a point to send me egregious messages long after my team won the battle. He was mad at me and the sub. LOL!

____________________________________

¹ 'Animal research' video: https://imgur.com/a/QYTXmsd

² Submarines can potentially earn more Base XP than most ship types, so it is essential to identify Base XP scores per ship type.

Edited March 21 by Frostbow

[hairoids]

Hi, my name is Bill and I am a stats hider.......

 

I hide mine for the same reason, to drive the stat shaming little d*ck heads crazy 🙂

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

I have had ZERO interest in stats for the last 4-5 years because I think it's a BS number. I dont know what some players do to fluff their stats either Divs only or Div stacking or whatever, but my experience in playing this game for 8 years is that stats mean NOTHING in this game and thew players that are most vocal in chat are the worst (and usually already dead ... because their crap).

Ive seen so many 60% WR player and above dying in 4-5 min in Superships and ive seen SO MANY 40-ish% WR players that have saved a guaranteed loss and turned it into a win, or being mega useful teammates with communication and coordination in chat.

So in THIS GAME I would actually probably rather play with the 40-50-ish WR players then the very often useless 60-70% WR players, because ......

.... regarding how many players gotten their high stats that's for sure. Because it doesn't show in their efforts ingame.

[clammboy]

I have to say there is something about this game that makes it very hard to keep your mouth shut and not say something stupid during games.

I don't have a MM monitor and I have never stat shamed someone in game but I have said some incredibly stupid things in battle.

The worst being down voting and calling out by name the full health BB hiding behind an island while your down 5 ships . Only to find out your team won the game and that BB sunk 5 ships and ended up at the top of the leader board. Embarrassing!!!!! 

Time to eat crow I have actually had to PM some people just to say I was sorry for being a jerk.

 

 

 

 

[Kynami]

Just the other day I had a clown driving a Kidd being a very negative individual. And they lambasted both me and the other BB they started on that flank with. Both of us just turned away when they got themselves blown up contesting the weak side cap far harder than they should have. However both of us in the BB came in first and second place at the end of the game because we kited half the enemy team as just two ships and sinking them while they failed to return the favor.

If you dive headfirst into a cap against radars and don't try at least a couple of the basics like reverski touching the cap to bait initial radar and saving smoke for when it can actually disengage your DD? Skill issue on their side and not the two BB that then have to kite that flank because our spotting went and got itself sunk.

[thornzero]

41 minutes ago, clammboy said:

The worst being down voting and calling out by name the full health BB hiding behind an island while your down 5 ships . Only to find out your team won the game and that BB sunk 5 ships and ended up at the top of the leader board. Embarrassing!!!!! 

Time to eat crow I have actually had to PM some people just to say I was sorry for being a jerk.

This is the thing. A person cannot follow 7 or 12 players around the map and monitor what they are doing, indeed when they are in the heat of their own battle. So much toxicity is avoidable by paying attention a little harder during the match and reviewing the post battle data. 

All most all the ones that pop off are usually in the wrong. I do not say anything until someone attacks me and I run potato alert to have an idea of what I'm getting into, and it is helpful to mitigate an attack, as the ones spouting off are almost always having bad stats / bad matches or died early, themselves. It is generally pretty easy to defend yourself or a teammate from these types of characters especially armed with data and some wit. I tend to render them speechless. No one needs this trouble over a game and someone has to speak up. I will gladly lose a karma for speaking up against this b.s..

[Type_93]

Hidden stats are like political bumper stickers. As soon as I see them, I know that person has nothing intelligent to say. 

[mashed68]

I don't hide my stats because who gives a f? 
But also they aren't terrible so it'll make the stat shamers sad when they look and can't actually shame me lol. 

[Admiral_Karasu]

38 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

Hidden stats are like political bumper stickers. As soon as I see them, I know that person has nothing intelligent to say. 

If I may, your statement is not technically correct. You cannot see what is hidden. Hidden stats are like when David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear. Magic!

[Type_93]

4 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

If I may, your statement is not technically correct. You cannot see what is hidden. Hidden stats are like when David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear. Magic!

Naw, it’s right on target.  
If you have political bumper stickers on your car and begin to talk about politics, I just ask you to stop. The stickers prove you have no idea about the topic you are trying to talk about. 
Same with a hidden profile. 

[Admiral_Karasu]

16 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

Naw, it’s right on target.  
If you have political bumper stickers on your car and begin to talk about politics, I just ask you to stop. The stickers prove you have no idea about the topic you are trying to talk about. 
Same with a hidden profile. 

Nonetheless, I see a logical contradiction in your statement.

[ArIskandir]

Ah, the age long question of stats...

Stats in WoWS have a reason to exist, that's engagement.

Competition is an integral part of the PvP experience and stats is the way your "competitive level" can be tracked and meassured. Improving your "competitive level" plays a huge part in keeping people engaged in the tracked activity, this should be so evident that I don't think it needs further explanation. Moreover, in order to improve you'll need to invest yourself into the activity, commonly in the form of time and money (even more money if you want to shortcut time). So, tracking stats is good for business... or at least used to be when your player base believed the game was actually "competitive". 

In short, for a PvP focused game, tracking stats is a way to promote engagement and thus generate more money out of invested players. 

So...

3 hours ago, Frostbow said:

Option 1
Set by default all stats to private, and put in place a sign informing the player to contact this particular player for his stats.

Ain't happening for the reasons stated above. You not only need your own stats to care about, you also need to know the stats of the "competition" in order to appraise yourself. Your "competitive level" is not an isolated value, it's relative to the performance of the rest of the player pool. 

3 hours ago, Frostbow said:

Option 2
Show only a player’s Minimum, Average, and Maximum Base XP on a per tier and per ship class² basis. I find Base XP to be a much better indicator than Win Rate. I think it will tell us how consistent a player’s performance has been over the long term.

Players stats can't fool you if you know how to read them... "believing" a stat value without further context is the same as believing a politician. 

But if you have access to a thorough data set, you can make a much better assessment of a player quality and characteristics. 

The in-game default data presentation is kinda useless (I never used it), but there are better tools like wows-numbers where you can filter the data in much more useful ways. For example I wouldn't care about your career WR in order to assess your current "competitive level" (which I wouldn't tbh because I have no reson to) but I would look for your last 3-6 months numbers. 

As far as Base XP goes, I agree it would be a good metric if it weren't irredeemably stained by the Devs design. First, true base XP is not tracked, what is tracked is the "adjusted" XP that accounts for the Premium Time bonus... so your XP will vary significantly whether you pay PT or not. Second, XP earnings depend on the tier and ship type you play... so it is a useless parameter to compare disimilar play experiences. 

 

4 hours ago, Frostbow said:

On 'toxicity'

People can be 'toxic' regardless of stats. it's a way of thinking, a culture, and you won't change it by tracking stats or not. People can and will weaponize everything, it is people who need fixing.

[Frostbow]

10 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

You not only need your own stats to care about, you also need to know the stats of the "competition" in order to appraise yourself. Your "competitive level" is not an isolated value, it's relative to the performance of the rest of the player pool. 

I know, however, the gist of the topic here is about how they have been used in ways that are abusive. You know that, we all know that. And besides, if knowing where one's stats are in relation to the rest is the concern, there are other ways of presenting the data, top of mind is redacting player names. Another would be what sites such as wows-numbers have been doing: color coded figures.

It is a problem with a solution, however, there has been no intention to solve it.

12 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

People can be 'toxic' regardless of stats. it's a way of thinking, a culture, and you won't change it by tracking stats or not. People can and will weaponize everything, it is people who need fixing.

Exactly. You just repeated what I wrote earlier. But that does not mean Wargaming is helpless about toxicity. They can do something about it, unless they idolize that old man who allowed illegals coming from LatAm unfettered entry to the country. 

It is people who need fixing? Good luck with that. Fix the system first, change in player behavior will follow. 

15 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Players stats can't fool you if you know how to read them... "believing" a stat value without further context is the same as believing a politician.

That is also not the gist of the topic. No one is fooling any one about their stats. It is the toxicity that arises from the visibility and abuse of such that needs to be addressed, not reading stats of anything like that. What I had in mind was a middle ground. 

18 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

In short, for a PvP focused game, tracking stats is a way to promote engagement and thus generate more money out of invested players.

That is highly defective given the amount of premiums and containers Wargaming put on sale all year round. Generating more money is not exclusive to invested players. Furthermore, the popularity of PvE modes such as Asymmetric Battles and Operations has long turned the 'Wows is a PvP focused game' statement into a myth. Wargaming simply wants to cater to the widest audience as possible (they even have this amusing 'creatorverse' going on right now), and claiming it is a PvP-focused game conveniently omits the fact that there are significant differences in market demand for various game modes.

Again, this is something that has no ideal solution to it. However, it also does not mean that toxicity arising from the abuse of stats is unsolvable. 

[mRex]

Why not have moderators in game like they do on forums? Sure they could find lot of good players willing. Not much they can do about someone following you to port but they could shut some of the nonsense down in game. Last time I got followed to port was in a DD last alive on my team and was trying to get behind a island because knew the petro had radar. I had captured 2 caps and killed 3 ships. Well make a long story short Petro radared so I opened up on him. He deleted me with his first shot. Guy followed me to port telling me to delete the game cause my  dumb A&& shot my guns.  He was the second one to die in that game and had his stats hidden. I just started Laughing. 

[Pugilistic]

1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

Ah, the age long question of stats...

Stats in WoWS have a reason to exist, that's engagement.

Competition is an integral part of the PvP experience and stats is the way your "competitive level" can be tracked and meassured. Improving your "competitive level" plays a huge part in keeping people engaged in the tracked activity, this should be so evident that I don't think it needs further explanation. Moreover, in order to improve you'll need to invest yourself into the activity, commonly in the form of time and money (even more money if you want to shortcut time). So, tracking stats is good for business... or at least used to be when your player base believed the game was actually "competitive". 

In short, for a PvP focused game, tracking stats is a way to promote engagement and thus generate more money out of invested players. 

So...

Ain't happening for the reasons stated above. You not only need your own stats to care about, you also need to know the stats of the "competition" in order to appraise yourself. Your "competitive level" is not an isolated value, it's relative to the performance of the rest of the player pool. 

Players stats can't fool you if you know how to read them... "believing" a stat value without further context is the same as believing a politician. 

But if you have access to a thorough data set, you can make a much better assessment of a player quality and characteristics. 

The in-game default data presentation is kinda useless (I never used it), but there are better tools like wows-numbers where you can filter the data in much more useful ways. For example I wouldn't care about your career WR in order to assess your current "competitive level" (which I wouldn't tbh because I have no reson to) but I would look for your last 3-6 months numbers. 

As far as Base XP goes, I agree it would be a good metric if it weren't irredeemably stained by the Devs design. First, true base XP is not tracked, what is tracked is the "adjusted" XP that accounts for the Premium Time bonus... so your XP will vary significantly whether you pay PT or not. Second, XP earnings depend on the tier and ship type you play... so it is a useless parameter to compare disimilar play experiences. 

 

People can be 'toxic' regardless of stats. it's a way of thinking, a culture, and you won't change it by tracking stats or not. People can and will weaponize everything, it is people who need fixing.

There is a not too rare player type who hides his stats and chides others about theirs - after he is first to sink. 

 

[Admiral_Karasu]

Could we... talk a little less about hidden stats...

[mashed68]

23 minutes ago, mRex said:

 I just started Laughing. 

Exactly. Who cares what random letters that appear on the screen say? People get so riled up by shit posting, and they deserve it for letting it get to them like that. I just laugh. 

[Type_93]

3 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Could we... talk a little less about hidden stats...

Hidden stats are fine, as long as you’re not trying to tell people how to play or what to do. I don’t like unicum players from hurricane clans doing that. 
No one likes armchair admirals who populate the game. 
I know it’s not true, but I always assume a player with hidden stats to be a 40%wr sub 500pr player.  
 

[Admiral_Karasu]

15 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

Hidden stats are fine, as long as you’re not trying to tell people how to play or what to do. I don’t like unicum players from hurricane clans doing that. 
No one likes armchair admirals who populate the game. 
I know it’s not true, but I always assume a player with hidden stats to be a 40%wr sub 500pr player.  
 

An assumption uncomfortably close to the perceived reality I would hazard to say....

[_KlRlTO_]

I don't care about players tracking their own personal stats. I am living proof about what Mountbatten says about moving win rate. I created alt acounts for each branch clan we have, and my win rate in those accounts is a massive leap over my main acount where my battle count is comparatively massive. I share this as a point of humor from time to time, but also as a reminder that the stats can't be trusted all of the time. The only stat I really care about right now is average plane kils per battle, but that has to do with my new favorite ships being Essex and Yorktown, because I love the fact that air supremacy is potentially possible again, and sitting on the enemy CV like a giant gorilla is fun to me. Consequently, I average 19 plane kills per game in Yorktown, which is about 4 more than anyone else in NA server. My other stats are weak, but I am okay with that, as long as it isn't the enemy CV hurting my team. In Essex, I don't have anywhere near enough battles to qualify yet, but as of right now I am averaging 25 plane kills, which is a massive leap over anyone else. My WR is 50% and PR is abysmally bad, but I am content.

What I do have an issue with is matchmaking monitor, which I have notice leads to some bad play habits, especially in terms of toxicity and player effort. Mountbatten is right on this, players have been using this as a means of being toxic, and it hurts the game.

[Captain_Rawhide]

I have to admit that I did follow one guy to port.  He did nothing but complain and harass his own team after, of course, he was dead in the first three minutes.  He complained about everybody.  I looked him up afterward and he had a 44% winrate.  So I 'chatted' him and politely suggested that since he clearly had allot to learn, maybe just being quiet when watching a match would be more beneficial to all.  It's not so much what people say in chat, it's the fact that it is distracting as hell when you are still trying to win the match.  

[MnemonScarlet]

Usually the only reason I care about my stats at all in a wider sense is to use them as an additional weapon to make mouthy players shut up. The beasts of the field usually silence quickly when you point out they know/can do less than you and them not having a clue what they're talking about is backed up by hard numbers.

Some people have a lot of vanity over their stats and I guess I can understand that, but it really only matters to me for a couple ships I like keeping high because I like the ships themselves. Like for example, I try to keep my Roma stats good (though the PR is mysteriously much lower nowadays, I guess some people began padding with her).

7 hours ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

I have had ZERO interest in stats for the last 4-5 years because I think it's a BS number. I dont know what some players do to fluff their stats either Divs only or Div stacking or whatever

When you can separate the division stats from the solo stats, div-padding is pretty much pointless. Anyone can find out you did it, since WG even lets you sort someone's solo numbers in their native viewer for the client nowadays.

Edited March 21 by MnemonScarlet