Balancing mechanism?

[WES_HoundDog]

Is this unusual?     Feels kind of weird that a japanese gun boat or anything with 152 or larger firing HE would wipe out your 8 inch guns potentially instantly and continuously.

Spoiler

 

Edited March 19, 2024 by WES_HoundDog

[Nevermore135]

Japanese heavy cruisers have fairly light turret armor as well, IIRC. It was a measure taken to reduce displacement/topweight and improve stability.

Edited March 19, 2024 by Nevermore135

[WES_HoundDog]

hmmm,    Harugumo vs ibuki in training room was pretty brutal.   took as little as 4 he shells to knock out a turret.

Also noticed that the game does not identify the turret as part of the ship for aiming purposes.

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Admiral_Karasu]

10 hours ago, WES_HoundDog said:

 

Also noticed that the game does not identify the turret as part of the ship for aiming purposes.

 

Have to ask what does that mean?

[Andrewbassg]

2 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Have to ask what does that mean?

 I guess, he  means that the  turrets are not considered part of the hull and hovering the aiming line over them is not taken into consideration, as part of aiming. The aiming line is what does the actual aiming and it was a problem when interfered with other objects  (other ships, islands).

Interesting.....

[WES_HoundDog]

6 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Have to ask what does that mean?

As you can see from the screen shots,  the ship is 1/4k away.     When aiming at the turrets the aiming distance does not pick up the turret and instead is aimed at the water over a kilometer away.  Meaning the shells will both not focus on the turret and at the same time will commonly arc over the turret.

 

Which interestingly is as pronounced at range as much as in close because as i was sailing toward the ibuki's, i was taking shots at the front guns of one of them at 11k and almost all of the shells were flying over the ship.   Actually hitting the top of the ship was quite hard even with severely plunging shells.

Edited March 20, 2024 by WES_HoundDog

[Andrewbassg]

43 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

As you can see from the screen shots,  the ship is 1/4k away.     When aiming at the turrets the aiming distance does not pick up the turret and instead is aimed at the water over a kilometer away.  Meaning the shells will both not focus on the turret and at the same time will commonly arc over the turret.

 

Which interestingly is as pronounced at range as much as in close because as i was sailing toward the ibuki's, i was taking shots at the front guns of one of them at 11k and almost all of the shells were flying over the ship.   Actually hitting the top of the ship was quite hard even with severely plunging shells.

Hmmm.........I assume this is with lock off......

[Admiral_Karasu]

14 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Hmmm.........I assume this is with lock off......

You mean the bug where you think you have a lock on but you don't?

[WES_HoundDog]

I don't have the ship name in view so i do not know if it was still locked on.  But if i lost lock while still being on the target that would be an additional issue.  But as you can see that the lock on target did not switch to the ship behind it so in all likelyhood the original ship was still targeted.    On the other hand, the lock on bug....

Edited March 20, 2024 by WES_HoundDog

[Andrewbassg]

3 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

You mean the bug where you think you have a lock on but you don't?

No......I mean that's not what I've meant...

 

2 hours ago, WES_HoundDog said:

I don't have the ship name in view so i do not know if it was still locked on.  But if i lost lock while still being on the target that would be an additional issue.  But as you can see that the lock on target did not switch to the ship behind it so in all likelyhood the original ship was still targeted.    On the other hand, the lock on bug....

The lock on (but not) bug affects dispersion i.e the shells are not "grouped together".

I was just sort of inquiring about the conditions, under which this could happen.  That's how problems are "diagnosed". Simply  assumed that you tested this without lock on. What shell, AP or HE?

Edited March 20, 2024 by Andrewbassg

[Andrewbassg]

Update: I can partially confirm this. Turrets are NOT considered part of the ship.

 

As you can see, in the first two screens, aimed for the hull. Target distance remained the same 0.69. When I aimed for the turret there was a jump in distance (~0.86) as one would expect. However from that on the distance increased linearly. Which means the turret didn't registered as an obstacle, but instead the game registered the water behind the hull. Another tell tale sign is the amount (~20m) which is, obviously, too much.

As for the shells going over..... I took out Colbert, but a DD will sit much lower in the water, thus the shells will fly over the turret.

 

Edited March 20, 2024 by Andrewbassg

[Admiral_Karasu]

So.. the turrets exist in another dimension of space and time?....

[Andrewbassg]

9 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

So.. the turrets exist in another dimension of space and time?....

 Not part of the  hitbox. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[Wulf_Ace]

I dont think that range finders ever consider ships as an obstacle. Probably not even islands.The whole range is probably calculated only for water, probably its easier like that to setup.

Try it for max range targeting the ship,it wont also show parts of the ship, just water distance.

Its not like WG cares for details like that.

[Andrewbassg]

30 minutes ago, Wulf_Ace said:

I dont think that range finders ever consider ships as an obstacle. Probably not even islands.The whole range is probably calculated only for water, probably its easier like that to setup.

Try it for max range targeting the ship,it wont also show parts of the ship, just water distance.

Its not like WG cares for details like that.

Well...the hull is registering as any other game object( islands, shores etc). But the turrets are objects of the objects, NOT separate game objects therefore they don't register as such.

Dabbled into programming a bit  (maybe more :))  and that's kinda how things are organized in that realm.

 

[Project45_Opytny]

On 3/20/2024 at 8:16 AM, WES_HoundDog said:

hmmm,    Harugumo vs ibuki in training room was pretty brutal.   took as little as 4 he shells to knock out a turret.

According to a third party side, Ibuki's turrets are worse than Encounter and Cerberus.

ALL Japanese cruisers, sans Zao, Azuma, Yoshino (and their clone versions) and very likely the Lesta Super Zao, have no turret splash immunity at all and may be disabled by any splash damage. For some strange reasons Aoba and Gokase has turret immunity up to 76mm HE, though it is curious what difference it may make.

Turret splash damage immunity threshold of Encounter and Cerberus is rated at 128mm (that is it is immune to splash damage up to 128mm HE). A bit better but still obviously a liability.

Splash damage mechanics has been well researched but it would take too long to do a systemic translation here. To put it simple: rudder, engines and turrets all have parameters regarding their splash damage tolerance. The parameter primarily works on HE shells that can be rated by cailbre, HE bombs seem to be considered as HE shells with calibre between 203 and 510mm and torpedo has "infinitely large" calibre (nothing is completely immune to splash damage caused by torpedoes).  The parameter has no direct link with how turrets are armored on the model, it is likely manually assigned by developers while often taking turret configuration into consideration (how the mechanism works was discovered back in 2020 when it was found that Albemarle's turret splash damage tolerance is bugged, can be disabled by 130mm HE despite the mounts themselves were well protected). There are still many irregularities though, like Smolensk's turrets are more durable than Aleksander Nevsky's ones and Bogatyr's turrets are immune to all shell splash damage but Charleston has no immunity at all.

[WES_HoundDog]

4 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

According to a third party side, Ibuki's turrets are worse than Encounter and Cerberus.

ALL Japanese cruisers, sans Zao, Azuma, Yoshino (and their clone versions) and very likely the Lesta Super Zao, have no turret splash immunity at all and may be disabled by any splash damage. For some strange reasons Aoba and Gokase has turret immunity up to 76mm HE, though it is curious what difference it may make.

Turret splash damage immunity threshold of Encounter and Cerberus is rated at 128mm (that is it is immune to splash damage up to 128mm HE). A bit better but still obviously a liability.

Splash damage mechanics has been well researched but it would take too long to do a systemic translation here. To put it simple: rudder, engines and turrets all have parameters regarding their splash damage tolerance. The parameter primarily works on HE shells that can be rated by cailbre, HE bombs seem to be considered as HE shells with calibre between 203 and 510mm and torpedo has "infinitely large" calibre (nothing is completely immune to splash damage caused by torpedoes).  The parameter has no direct link with how turrets are armored on the model, it is likely manually assigned by developers while often taking turret configuration into consideration (how the mechanism works was discovered back in 2020 when it was found that Albemarle's turret splash damage tolerance is bugged, can be disabled by 130mm HE despite the mounts themselves were well protected). There are still many irregularities though, like Smolensk's turrets are more durable than Aleksander Nevsky's ones and Bogatyr's turrets are immune to all shell splash damage but Charleston has no immunity at all.

I was really looking at small caliber fast fireing guns being a problem for these turrets.   As they (i would think) would also have a significantly smaller splash than say conq.   The ability to shoot the turrets directly and knock them out easy regardless of splash. Plus the added benefit of getting damage tallies as well.

 

On a related note.    The information you posted above, i'm not going to say is incorrect, but i would say might be out-dated.    I just went into a training room filled with Zao's in my jinan.    I put over 800 he shells into the front turret of a Zao and never once did the turret get disabled.

Spoiler

 

[Project45_Opytny]

27 minutes ago, WES_HoundDog said:

On a related note.    The information you posted above, i'm not going to say is incorrect, but i would say might be out-dated.    I just went into a training room filled with Zao's in my jinan.    I put over 800 he shells into the front turret of a Zao and never once did the turret get disabled.

It seems that I used some incorrect wording?

I want to mean that other than Zao, Azuma (and AL version) and Yoshino (B), all Japanese cruiser turrets has no turret splash damage immunity. Zao has, as well as Azuma and Yoshino.

[Nevermore135]

6 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

It seems that I used some incorrect wording?

No, your original wording was correct.

Edited March 22, 2024 by Nevermore135

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

On 3/19/2024 at 11:05 PM, WES_HoundDog said:

Is this unusual?     Feels kind of weird that a japanese gun boat or anything with 152 or larger firing HE would wipe out your 8 inch guns potentially instantly and continuously.

  Reveal hidden contents