Yeah.....sub changes are not really working. And defo not what actually is needed.

[Andrewbassg]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rDYEimpH9gBUN6_aH8jKyZ1N1RKUAllG/view?usp=drive_link

 

 In fact making it worse....... :(   I'm pretty sure that Wedgie is proud itself but........for no good reason.

 

it was sheer luck  which decided the outcome .  And he toppled their list, when arguably Harbin should have. Their artificially boosted income is dishonest, especially in ranked. 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

Idk what you mean ............ seems to be perfectly balanced in Randoms...

Doesnt everyone get 3000 BASE XP after doing 67 000 damage to a Rep?!

[Wulf_Ace]

31 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Idk what you mean ............ seems to be perfectly balanced in Randoms...

Doesnt everyone get 3000 BASE XP after doing 67 000 damage to a Rep?!

Dude you have done 108k spotting damage! Subs get crazy amount of exp by doing just spotting damage, if you dont do any damage and you have spotting damage you will get a lot of exp. My record high exp is in a sub , over 5k exp! And most of it is from spotting not damage.

[MBT808]

At least with the changes so far, I'd say no, the changes haven't done anything.

The sub surveillance is. . . not impactful. Sure it might catch a sub out, but honestly I've yet to see a ship with it be in position to actually use it. It clashes with the play style of the ships that have it and thus the consumable ends up seeing little(if any) use. Now, if the consumable had been implements on DDs, I think things would be totally different and I'd have been very impactful. Gearing, Shima, and Daring should've gotten it instead of Venezia, Yodo, and Zao honestly.

The changes to depth charge asw plane range is nice, but low tiers need more help still. I think two depth charges per drop needs to be base line, lose the single drop cause its practically useless. Ship mounted DCs are near useless in the game state unless a sub obligues you, it needs help.

The unnecessary turn radius buff should be reversed, this change hurt ship mounted DCs badly and there was no justifiable reason for it. It also made things more difficult for plane ASW, cause often subs will dodge massed ASW planes outright simply by turning combined with the slow travel time. DDs physically cannot do anything to deal with subs because of the turn radius buff. They out turn any depth charge attack and so few DDs have hydro(the ones that do have bad turn radi). Also, because the shot gun nerf hasn't been implemented, their vastly superior turn radius made shotgunning excessively effective against any DD stupid enough to try to drop DCs.

Hopefully the next set of changes help push things in a better direction with the shot gun changes, but I'm not hopeful.

Edited March 9 by MBT808

[coolrunings_99]

very nice..go where dd goes, plop up, plop down, top of the scoreboard arrrghhh..just dont like them dildos way too much, even to conduct kind of a meaningful discussion on the subject😉

[SunkCostFallacy]

24 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

The sub surveillance is. . . not impactful. Sure it might catch a sub out, but honestly I've yet to see a ship with it be in position to actually use it.

 

I'm currently grinding a couple of lines that the cruisers got the sub surveillance.  I'm not in game now, so I can't specify the ships. One of them is Japanese, I know that.

OOOH! I thought. This might be cool!

Nope ... it's a waste of time. The range is too limited, and the duration is a farce and the cooldown is so long that I only manage to use it once in a normal COOP match. I can't imagine how useless it is in Randoms where the pig boat is in the hands of a player and not a bot.

I've managed to spot ONE sub using it after trying 10 to 15 times.

[MBT808]

1 minute ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

I'm currently grinding a couple of lines that the cruisers got the sub surveillance.  I'm not in game now, so I can't specify the ships. One of them is Japanese, I know that.

OOOH! I thought. This might be cool!

Nope ... it's a waste of time. The range is too limited, and the duration is a farce and the cooldown is so long that I only manage to use it once in a normal COOP match. I can't imagine how useless it is in Randoms where the pig boat is in the hands of a player and not a bot.

I've managed to spot ONE sub using it after trying 10 to 15 times.

The problem is teams don't allow it and the ships(Yodo, Zao, and Venezia) are best employed as second line cruisers. Doing what their supposed to do, their often never in position as a result to provide sub surveillance when needed. As I said, it conflicts with their play style. I've tested it in randoms and its pretty much the same situation. It also doesn't help that teams are too passive to support you in order to use it. Hence, why it should've been on DDs. DDs can close the distance with subs to utilize it and it would allow them to act as a hard counter potentially in the same sense that cruiser Radar counters DDs.

I agree about the duration, 30s would be better or some sort of scaling as the tiers go up(say 20s at tier VI and 35s at tier X/XI).

[Verytis]

10 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

The problem is teams don't allow it and the ships(Yodo, Zao, and Venezia) are best employed as second line cruisers. Doing what their supposed to do, their often never in position as a result to provide sub surveillance when needed. As I said, it conflicts with their play style. I've tested it in randoms and its pretty much the same situation. It also doesn't help that teams are too passive to support you in order to use it. Hence, why it should've been on DDs. DDs can close the distance with subs to utilize it and it would allow them to act as a hard counter potentially in the same sense that cruiser Radar counters DDs.

I agree about the duration, 30s would be better or some sort of scaling as the tiers go up(say 20s at tier VI and 35s at tier X/XI).

Implementing sub surveillance on DDs might be somewhat fair in TX, but it'd be completely unfair against subs in lower tiers which suffer massive speed reduction underwater. It'd be no means of evasion.

Zao and Yodo actually have decent concealment which makes them capable of being first line cruisers. Right now, the consumable existing on cruisers is mostly fine for the purposes of zoning out a sub to deter shotgun attempts. It forces the sub the stay at a distance and rely on pings and homing torps, which gives its rough position away and can be dodged with varying degrees of success depending on your ship and skill.

[Zysyss]

I find subs to be annoying but only dangerous in the right hands. Depending on what ship I am playing, I will either engage the sub or run away. One way to help you deal with subs is to have your DD/CA capt spec include radio detection. Some of you should have that anyway. Subs are not as easy to play and be good at as some would make you think. Keep an eye on your minimap and have the mod that shows where a sub player uses ping. It will help you a great deal. If the sub has not been spotted and you know where all the enemy DDs and CV planes are and you are not being spotted by one of them, be aware that there is a good chance that a sub is spotting you. Awareness of what is going on around you should be something you are doing even when subs are not in the game. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

Personally, I feel the Cruiser equipped "submarine surveilance" consumable has been effective.
Sure, one must combine the consumable with a bit of brain-power, in order to read the situation and look for the clues about where a submarine may be on the map.
But, when a submarine gets too close, opponents can detect the submarine (and the submarine can subsequently receive a lot of unwanted attentions).

Late-game, when possibly there are fewer ships with detection consumables remaining in play, these cruisers might have an opportunity to strut their stuff.

[palestreamer]

27 minutes ago, Zysyss said:

have the mod that shows where a sub player uses ping. 

Which mod is that? Aslain?

[hipcanuck]

Subs dont belong, never have, never will. WG will just continue to hammer a square peg into a round hole until it fits.

[thornzero]

33 minutes ago, Zysyss said:

One way to help you deal with subs is to have your DD/CA capt spec include radio detection. Some of you should have that anyway.

I have tried rpf on a couple of DDs. The rpf shuts off if there are no ships and a sub dives deep. It's kind of bizarre because you get used to it being there.

I find I need those 4 points for other reasons. Even though it is nice to have, I would rather more dps.

[Zysyss]

20 minutes ago, palestreamer said:

Which mod is that? Aslain?

Aslains under minimap the mod called "Submarine Pingers on Minimap"

Edited March 9 by Zysyss

[ArIskandir]

30 minutes ago, thornzero said:

I have tried rpf on a couple of DDs. The rpf shuts off if there are no ships and a sub dives deep. It's kind of bizarre because you get used to it being there.

I find I need those 4 points for other reasons. Even though it is nice to have, I would rather more dps.

Against Subs, dps is meaningless, information is everything.

[thornzero]

2 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Against Subs, dps is meaningless, information is everything.

I'm not playing the higher tiers [maybe brawls] so its not important to me yet. Maybe I'll change later.

[Verytis]

39 minutes ago, thornzero said:

I have tried rpf on a couple of DDs. The rpf shuts off if there are no ships and a sub dives deep. It's kind of bizarre because you get used to it being there.

I find I need those 4 points for other reasons. Even though it is nice to have, I would rather more dps.

The best you'll get out of that 4pts is 11% conditional DPM buff via fearless brawler.

Meanwhile having RPF means you can sic a radar ship or CV on your opponent, or maybe getting the initial jump on him yourself.

Besides that, it also alerts you to potential ambushes around corners, and helps track down subs that take a peek on the surface.

[thornzero]

4 minutes ago, Verytis said:

The best you'll get out of that 4pts is 11% conditional DPM buff via fearless brawler.

Meanwhile having RPF means you can sic a radar ship or CV on your opponent, or maybe getting the initial jump on him yourself.

Besides that, it also alerts you to potential ambushes around corners, and helps track down subs that take a peek on the surface.

I had a fifth extra point so I went for main battery and AA specialist and Demolition Expert when I respec'd out of rpf. The reason I didn't go for brawler is the condition.

I did this on Z-44 and Fletcher, my only 21 pointers. I find that it is a little better in the guns. You might say I'm wrong but that is okay. I play better with more of a gun ship build and those guns come in useful toward the end of the match given my survival until then.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

4 hours ago, Wulf_Ace said:

Dude you have done 108k spotting damage! Subs get crazy amount of exp by doing just spotting damage, if you dont do any damage and you have spotting damage you will get a lot of exp. My record high exp is in a sub , over 5k exp! And most of it is from spotting not damage.

CVs do not get heavily rewarded for spotting damage...

Each class gets XP in different ways, it seems.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

4 hours ago, Wulf_Ace said:

Dude you have done 108k spotting damage! Subs get crazy amount of exp by doing just spotting damage, if you dont do any damage and you have spotting damage you will get a lot of exp. My record high exp is in a sub , over 5k exp! And most of it is from spotting not damage.

Yes, while taking ZERO risks! Zero damage taken all game by the next to last pic. Subs can do everything a Destroyer can do but much better, more efficient and with a boosted/broken economy reward system!

So my question is, why would any intelligent player still be playing Destroyers.....? And this coming from a 8 year Destroyer main btw.....

Ooh .... you have CV planes ..? LOL! I just dive and spot them while they wonder where I am...

Ooh ... you brought radar ...? LOL! I just dive to periscope and let my Watchful skill tell me when its safe to surface again....

Ooh ... you brought hydro that sees thru islands ...? ROFL! I just dive to 30 meters and continue to harass you because you hydro doesn't save you from homing torps...

Ooh ... youre DDs is trying to push me ...? LOL! I just dive and change course underneath him and sail a bit under until I use my hydro to see if its safe to surface and if I managed to fool him on a wilde goose chase away from caps.

 

I also speed thru every Battle pass grind in lighting speed since those missions are base XP based and im more often than not get 2400-3000 Base XP each game. Its not really hard.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

1 hour ago, palestreamer said:

Which mod is that? Aslain?

Can highly recommend it! Gotten a lot of sub kills with that.

[Andrewbassg]

4 hours ago, MBT808 said:

The unnecessary turn radius buff should be reversed, this change hurt ship mounted DCs badly and there was no justifiable reason for it. It also made things more difficult for plane ASW, cause often subs will dodge massed ASW planes outright simply by turning combined with the slow travel time. DDs physically cannot do anything to deal with subs because of the turn radius buff. They out turn any depth charge attack and so few DDs have hydro(the ones that do have bad turn radi). Also, because the shot gun nerf hasn't been implemented, their vastly superior turn radius made shotgunning excessively effective against any DD stupid enough to try to drop DCs.

 

This. I play with rudder shift, not concealment and even with double on some ships. Those who watched the replay saw that I managed to avoid most of the torps, but..... when it was about the kill.......I couldn't get in a proper position, no matter what. He just simply outturned me, at every step. Got lucky coz my guns were, mostly, in the right direction ( thnx Lutjens) but otherwise.....

This manoeuvrability buff was uncalled for, at the very least magnitude wise. Played a LOT of Yodo in Airship, got some suckmarines sunk, but they can do moar than 90 degree turns, right in the box of the airstrike. Which is .....just plain BS.

 

I didn't looked him up, but I would say we were about evenly matched, skill wise, judging from his play. Maybe he was a bit better. So yeah these changes ( as of yet) from my pov  don't address the fundamental issues with the sub implementation. In fact, they feel more and more just like some lame excuses, to which they can point and say "look we do stuff". Yeah well.... 

 

3 hours ago, Zysyss said:

I find subs to be annoying but only dangerous in the right hands. Depending on what ship I am playing, I will either engage the sub or run away.

Yes, but you can't really do that in ranked, right? You have to do stuff, if you want to win that is.

 

2 hours ago, hipcanuck said:

Subs dont belong, never have, never will. WG will just continue to hammer a square peg into a round hole until it fits.

Yep. The thing is ,subs should be part of a naval game, however the setting, basic concept, and even gameplay doesn't welcome them as good addition to the game. Like at all. And all they did was to create a huuge PITA, both for them and  for us. Imagine that subs are STILL not allowed in ops, where they absolutely should be present. Think about Narai and a sub going straight for the merchant ships... Or KW.

But the thing is, subs, with their boosted income, would kill off ops.

1 hour ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

I also speed thru every Battle pass grind in lighting speed since those missions are base XP based and im more often than not get 2400-3000 Base XP each game. Its not really hard.

Yeah. And they also easily topple the board in ranked, coz reasons .

Both the Harbin and the sub got only me to shoot at, they both capped yet look at the difference......

 

 

[Zysyss]

6 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Yes, but you can't really do that in ranked, right? You have to do stuff, if you want to win that is.

Yes, ranked does make it harder but not impossible if you take the right ship into ranked. But, I do not believe that subs should be in ranked. They keep them out of CB and KoTs for a reason and ranked is pretty much the same format without premade teams. 

[Jakob Knight]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Yes, while taking ZERO risks! Zero damage taken all game by the next to last pic. Subs can do everything a Destroyer can do but much better, more efficient and with a boosted/broken economy reward system!

So my question is, why would any intelligent player still be playing Destroyers.....? And this coming from a 8 year Destroyer main btw.....

Ooh .... you have CV planes ..? LOL! I just dive and spot them while they wonder where I am...

Ooh ... you brought radar ...? LOL! I just dive to periscope and let my Watchful skill tell me when its safe to surface again....

Ooh ... you brought hydro that sees thru islands ...? ROFL! I just dive to 30 meters and continue to harass you because you hydro doesn't save you from homing torps...

Ooh ... youre DDs is trying to push me ...? LOL! I just dive and change course underneath him and sail a bit under until I use my hydro to see if its safe to surface and if I managed to fool him on a wilde goose chase away from caps.

 

I also speed thru every Battle pass grind in lighting speed since those missions are base XP based and im more often than not get 2400-3000 Base XP each game. Its not really hard.

 

They don't cap as well at all.  They don't deal with direct fire as well.  They don't have as good concealment as a comparable DD can have.  They are slower.  Alot of reasons to play DDs instead of Subs, and Subs don't do things with zero risk.

 

As far a hydro goes, you are even more blind than the surface ship, since you can't detect anything from 30 meters down unless its a Sub.  Hydrophone has been nerfed to a flashbulb effect that won't actually let you track anything and you won't even see them unless you are looking at them when it happens.  To 'harass' that surface ship, you need to rise to Periscope Depth, and you get spotted the same time you see that DD.  More, at maximum depth, you will still be spotted by Hydro within 2km, so that's not a perfect defense.

 

And I welcome you trying to dive and change course when I'm in a DD.  I've sunk plenty of Subs in my DDs who thought like that, and ended up with crushed hulls because they forgot not all DDs are drones.

 

While I do think the XP situation with Subs needs work, their actual combat performance seems pretty spot-on now.  They can be combat effective, but they can also go down quickly if mishandled.  If anything, one of the problems is that Subs are polar....you either get away with light damage and do well or you are crushed with no real chance to escape and do poorly.  They don't have the ability to trade damage and brawl like other units, and have alot stacked against them that a competent player will use to turn the tables on them.

[Andrewbassg]

3 minutes ago, Zysyss said:

Yes, ranked does make it harder but not impossible if you take the right ship into ranked. But, I do not believe that subs should be in ranked. They keep them out of CB and KoTs for a reason and ranked is pretty much the same format without premade teams. 

And yet its the same with Cv's .......

As for the right ship......that's a bit more complicated, because there is also familiarity, playstyle  and the fun factor, so.....