Is there a way to know (statistically) shatters from secondaries?

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

Something just crossed my mind... is there a way to know (statistically) shatters from secondaries?

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Nevermore135]

1 hour ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

Something just crossed my mind... is there a way to know (statistically) shatters from secondaries?

 

Leo "Apollo11"

HE secondaries will result in either penetrations (33% damage) or non-penetrations (no damage) the vast majority of the time. One can get a reasonable approximation of how many shatters one gets per battle by comparing their secondary damage total to the number of secondary ribbons. It won’t be perfect (shots that sink ships will almost always deal less than 33% damage), but it will be pretty close.

Edited February 9 by Nevermore135

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

6 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

HE secondaries will result in either penetrations (33%) or non-penetrations (no damage) the vast majority of the time. One can get a reasonable approximation of how many shatters one gets per battle by comparing their secondary damage total to the number of secondary ribbons. It won’t be perfect (shots that sink ships will almost always deal less than 33% damage), but it will be pretty close.

Interesting - thanks - will check that out!

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Nevermore135]

9 minutes ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Interesting - thanks - will check that out!

To add to my earlier post, there is (at least theoretically) a way to account for the reduced damage of kill shots: divide your secondary damage figure by pen damage per shell (0.33*shell alpha) to obtain the rough number of damaging secondary hits from the match. Then simply round up to the next nearest whole number once for each secondary kill.

This still won’t account for the rare HE citadel on ships like Ranger, but is probably the best that can be done with the information the game reports.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

2 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

Something just crossed my mind... is there a way to know (statistically) shatters from secondaries?

 

Leo "Apollo11"

If you're diving that deep into the numbers, you're probably too obsessed. 

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

4 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

If you're diving that deep into the numbers, you're probably too obsessed. 

Nah... it is just curiosity...

On my Tirpitz I have 2 captains with different Secondary build setup:

• 1st captain = Lutjens with 21-point from the Schlieffen (IFHE = ON)
• 2nd captain = Ordinary captain 21-point from the Preussen (IFHE = OFF)

I play "Ranked Silver" with Tirpitz and I was wondering which one would be more effective / productive ...

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

On 2/9/2024 at 1:57 PM, Nevermore135 said:

To add to my earlier post, there is (at least theoretically) a way to account for the reduced damage of kill shots: divide your secondary damage figure by pen damage per shell (0.33*shell alpha) to obtain the rough number of damaging secondary hits from the match. Then simply round up to the next nearest whole number once for each secondary kill.

This still won’t account for the rare HE citadel on ships like Ranger, but is probably the best that can be done with the information the game reports.

I tried to do some calculations but the problem is that, for example, my Tiripiz has both 105mm and 150mm secondaries with different MAX possible damage...

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Nevermore135]

1 hour ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

I tried to do some calculations but the problem is that, for example, my Tiripiz has both 105mm and 150mm secondaries with different MAX possible damage...

 

Leo "Apollo11"

Yes, it’s only possible to do any of these calculations if the ship has a uniform secondary battery. For ships that have mixed batteries even if you apply some variables to account for damage and ROF differences you will still be unable to account for firing angles for different guns affecting the distribution of shots fired/hits between small and large caliber secondaries.

Edited February 12 by Nevermore135

[Navalpride33]

On 2/9/2024 at 3:18 AM, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

Something just crossed my mind... is there a way to know (statistically) shatters from secondaries?

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

2 hours ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

I tried to do some calculations but the problem is that, for example, my Tiripiz has both 105mm and 150mm secondaries with different MAX possible damage...

Stats guy to stats guy... What you're asking has to many variables.. There's no good analytical tool to use for an accurate read out...

Perfect example.. My Girlfriend asks me if she looks cute in a particular outfit.. Now, my analytical brain can

• Crunch the numbers
• Do a control and contrast to other outfits in her past to formulate the best outfit for her insecurities.

But the answer will not make her happy..

My second option would be my sincerity with "you look fine honey" wont make her happy either.

My thrid option would be being flirtatious and mention how sexy the outfit looks at her. This will result her being "SUS" (or suspicious)of me for liking the outfit. Again, not making her feel happy of her life/outfit choices. Which is ultimately the end goal.

My reptilian brain states to just lie and hope it sounds convincing. Maybe that will quench her female ego needs. Depending on the girl's personality, this ultimately works in must cases.. Is it right? Heck no.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So to conclude... No matter what data you collect nor what data collection method you use... I dont think the conclusion is going to make you happy... Nor reflect on your expectations.

Edited February 12 by Navalpride33

[Unlooky]

On 2/9/2024 at 8:28 AM, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

Nah... it is just curiosity...

On my Tirpitz I have 2 captains with different Secondary build setup:

• 1st captain = Lutjens with 21-point from the Schlieffen (IFHE = ON)
• 2nd captain = Ordinary captain 21-point from the Preussen (IFHE = OFF)

I play "Ranked Silver" with Tirpitz and I was wondering which one would be more effective / productive ...

 

Leo "Apollo11"

Tirpitz benefits from IFHE since her secondary battery does not uniformly penetrate 32mm like Preussen's does. I use my Schlieffen commander on Tirpitz for this reason. 

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

46 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Tirpitz benefits from IFHE since her secondary battery does not uniformly penetrate 32mm like Preussen's does. I use my Schlieffen commander on Tirpitz for this reason. 

 

Yep... I know... I just wanted to have some empirical tests/results...

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Wulf_Ace]

On 2/9/2024 at 2:28 PM, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

Nah... it is just curiosity...

On my Tirpitz I have 2 captains with different Secondary build setup:

• 1st captain = Lutjens with 21-point from the Schlieffen (IFHE = ON)
• 2nd captain = Ordinary captain 21-point from the Preussen (IFHE = OFF)

I play "Ranked Silver" with Tirpitz and I was wondering which one would be more effective / productive ...

 

Leo "Apollo11"

depends on RNG also so you would need 1000 battles to determine that.

How many fires you will set up as no IFHE and how many pens will you do with IFHE.

Something similar with Akizuki line,IFHE yes or no. But I find setting fires do more dmg then normal dmg.

[Artist]

Hello everyone, I just registered here to add a comment, thank u 🙏

I only have a Schlieffen, and I'm trying to come up with an ideal formula (IFHE On or Off ?).

What I've come up with is that the secondary shells fall vertically onto the opponent's ship;

In most cases, the penetrable parts without IFHE represent one-third of the ship, which means that only one-third of the secondary that hit the ship cause damage, meaning that two-thirds do not cause damage.

If IFHE is On, it will not allow two-thirds of the remaining shells to cause damage, it will only allow only one-third to cause damage, because (most ships) with armor up to 32 mm only covers the front of the ship, that is: one-third of the ship.
 

This means: If IFHE is On, you will damage two-thirds of the ship at best, and if IFHE is Off, you will damage one-third.
 

One-third of the opponent's ship can only be damaged by fire.

Now I have a question: Does a secondary shell that pierces the armor and does not hit the main parts do 33% of its declared damage?
I doubt this, I noticed that a 105mm shell that does not hit the main parts does about 200 damage, which means that out of 100 shells it will only do 6600 damage from penetrating the non-main parts, so I think so far that investing in starting a fire is more suitable. 

Thank u all

 

 

[I_cant_Swim_]

@ArtistWelcome to the forum! Good question, too. Stick around, will ya.

 

[Nevermore135]

 

4 hours ago, Artist said:

Now I have a question: Does a secondary shell that pierces the armor and does not hit the main parts do 33% of its declared damage?
I doubt this, I noticed that a 105mm shell that does not hit the main parts does about 200 damage, which means that out of 100 shells it will only do 6600 damage from penetrating the non-main parts, so I think so far that investing in starting a fire is more suitable. 

Secondary shells behave just like standard HE shells, so a penetrating hit deals 33% of its declared damage with a few notable exceptions:

1) External torpedo bulges are immune to damage from HE shells, as while the volume of the bulge is part of the ship’s hitbox (it can interact with shells) it’s not considered part of the ship for damage calculation. Unlike AP shells, HE and SAP don’t penetrate beyond the surface, so they deal no damage. HE shells can still start fires, though.

2) Main battery turrets have their own HP pools, with only small amount of the damage they take (I think it’s 10%) being passed on to the ship itself.

3) Damage saturation affects secondary shells in the same manner as main battery HE shells.

 

Edited March 12 by Nevermore135

[Wolfswetpaws]

Interesting topic.  🍿

[Hugh_Ruka]

On 3/12/2024 at 12:30 PM, Nevermore135 said:

 

2) Main battery turrets have their own HP pools, with only small amount of the damage they take (I think it’s 10%) being passed on to the ship itself.

 

This is irrelevant, it still counts as the same damage, no matter which healthpool it is from. So you get the same damage number reported and the transfer to ship HP pool is not mentioned anywhere ...

[Unlooky]

On 3/12/2024 at 3:15 AM, Artist said:

Hello everyone, I just registered here to add a comment, thank u 🙏

I only have a Schlieffen, and I'm trying to come up with an ideal formula (IFHE On or Off ?).

What I've come up with is that the secondary shells fall vertically onto the opponent's ship;

In most cases, the penetrable parts without IFHE represent one-third of the ship, which means that only one-third of the secondary that hit the ship cause damage, meaning that two-thirds do not cause damage.

If IFHE is On, it will not allow two-thirds of the remaining shells to cause damage, it will only allow only one-third to cause damage, because (most ships) with armor up to 32 mm only covers the front of the ship, that is: one-third of the ship.
 

This means: If IFHE is On, you will damage two-thirds of the ship at best, and if IFHE is Off, you will damage one-third.
 

One-third of the opponent's ship can only be damaged by fire.

Now I have a question: Does a secondary shell that pierces the armor and does not hit the main parts do 33% of its declared damage?
I doubt this, I noticed that a 105mm shell that does not hit the main parts does about 200 damage, which means that out of 100 shells it will only do 6600 damage from penetrating the non-main parts, so I think so far that investing in starting a fire is more suitable. 

Thank u all

 

 

You take IFHE on Schlieffen because of the significant gains in threshold (being able to damage the ubiquitous 30mm and 32mm plating.) Because of Schlieffen's volume of secondary fire, losses in firestarting are rather negligible. 

Edited March 13 by Unlooky