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Genius or madman Admiral John Arbuthnot Fisher Unapproachable-Uncatchable-Untakeable


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Unapproachable (1-2-3)
At the time Admiral John Arbuthnot Fisher drawn up the idea of HMS Untakeable:
www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/H…
He also envisioned a companion design to his battleship, an armoured cruiser with such wast speed, no other capital ship or armoured cruiser could get close to it to fight it head on, hence the name: HMS Unapproachable!
Generally it follows the same layout and armament as the Untakeable Battleship concept but for the desired high speed of 25,5knots the hull was much longer, less beamierand somewhat deeper. The high speed required a larger number of boilers hence the addition of the 3rd funnel otherwise it contains the same concepts as the HMS Untakeable:

- Superfiring position of the 10" turrets to provide excellent firing angles
- two-two turrets aft and one-one twin 7,5" turrets at the sides which has twice the fire rate as the 10" guns and provide greater firing arcs at the corners of the ship as well as forward and aft: 4-4 turrets each
- 4" guns to counter enemy torpedo-boats and destroyers in blast free positions
- Armoured conning tower for centralised fire control only forward (Which only appears on RN ships much later)
- Telescopic funnels which theoretically would provide less obstructions for the main weapons of the ship arc of fire as well as reduce the silhouette of the ship while approaching the enemy though the issues with the toxic gases seems not thought over
- Gantry crane system for the ship boats to be loaded and unloaded as the single thin polemast would not be enough for them
- Collapsible Berthon Boats stored under the main deck in protected rooms and quickly released by the side openings because it was expected that both the main boats and cranes would be unusable after the battle.
- Linoleum covered deck instead of wood planks to reduce damage to the crew.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 152,4 (pp) x 161,5 (wl) x 166,5 (oa) x 19,5 x 7,92m
Displacement: Around 14.000tons (standard)
Armour: 152mm belt, 51mm deck
Engines: Around 40-50.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments: 
2x2 10"/50 (256mm/50) BL Mark V Guns,
6x2 7,5"/50 (190mm/50) BL Mark II Guns,
12x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

Like the first variant, this design too was the companion armoured cruiser design to the Untakeable version 2:
www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/H…
It uses the same hull elements same ideas that Fisher proposed but as it was an armoured cruiser, speed was more essential hence the longer and sleeker hull but thinner armour.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 152,4 (pp) x 161,5 (wl) x 166,5 (oa) x 19,5 x 7,92m
Displacement: Around 14.000tons (standard)
Armour: 152mm belt, 51mm deck
Engines: Around 40-50.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments: 
2x2 10"/50 (256mm/50) BL Mark V Guns,
6x2 7,5"/50 (190mm/50) BL Mark II Guns,
12x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

Uncatchable (A-A-B-C
This drawing shows the very first proposal Fisher created for the HMS Dreadnought's Armoured Cruiser (now we call Battlecruiser) companion but with elements Fisher would had seen on the design (The actual sketch drawing shows a different hull and likely more Invincible like structural elements. These include the distinct clipper bow, telescopic funnels, Untakeable/Unapproachable like small bridge with Rangefinder on top of it which in turn resulted in the ability for the two forward side by side turrets to fire directly or at least a very good angle aft, Swiftsure type simple "goose neck" cranes and most equipments out of the way from the turrets blast.
The hull has a forecastle deck with very minimal sheer and the upper deck goes from the back of the front turrets all the way to the stern with a slight sheer as well.
Due to the longer /50 calibre guns Fisher envisioned the turrets had to be larger meaning their rotating circle too became bigger and had to be placed somewhat further away from each other putting them much closer to the sides of the hull creating the issue which plagues the designs adopting this layout.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 158,5 (pp) x 169,75 (wl) x 174,2 (oa) x 22,86 x 8,08m
Displacement: 16.000tons (standard)
Armour: 152mm belt, 25mm deck over Magazines, 19mm over Machinery
Engines: 42.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments:
4x2 12"/50 (305mm/50) BL Mark XI Cannons,
16x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III Guns,
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

While Design A shows how the ship would looked like if Fisher had more involvement in the design process:
www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/H…
This is the drawing which is based on the actual sketch drawing survived of the first version of Uncatchable showing the characteristic British Ram Bow and curved Stern, likely straight long funnels and the 12pounder or 3"/50 guns actually adopted for the Dreadnought. All stats are the same as above except the Anti Torpedo Boat gun armament being 20x 3"/50 QF Mark I ones. You can imagine that Designs B and C would look like this as well if DNC were to provide more detailed drawings.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 158,5 (pp) x 169,75 (wl) x 174,2 (oa) x 22,86 x 8,08m
Displacement: 16.000tons (standard)
Armour: 152mm belt, 25mm deck over Magazines, 19mm over Machinery
Engines: 42.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments:
4x2 12"/50 (305mm/50) BL Mark XI Cannons,
20x1 3"/50 (76mm/50) QF Mark I Guns,
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

Design B shows the same turret layout as variant A but on a different lower profile hull likely to save weight. The forecastle deck deleted, the upper deck now starts from the nose and ends short of the 3rd turret or even connects it with a slight sheer, the sketch drawing is not clear on this regard and the main deck now carries the 4th turret while the Upper deck holds the 1st 2nd and 3rd turrets. Due to the deletion of the forecastle deck the 4" gun armament had to be repositioned with the 4x guns behind and under the forwardmost turrets now placed around the enlarged and taller bridge to be able to fire over the front turrets.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, likely as design A so: 158,5 (pp) x 169,75 (wl) x 174,2 (oa) x 22,86 x 8,08m
Displacement: Unknown
Armour: 152mm belt, 25mm deck over Magazines, 19mm over Machinery
Engines: 42.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments: 
4x2 12"/50 (305mm/50) BL Mark XI Cannons,
16x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III Guns,
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

Design C is like the mix of the previous two with both Forecastle, Upper and Main decks and the associated turrets on them. Hull dimensions are unknown, a well informed friend suggested the same hull as Invincible A while I remained with the same as Design A. The ship shows a characteristic sheer on all decks, the sketch drawing shows that the forecastle goes well behind the front turrets likely to the forwardmost funnel, the upper deck goes aft until the 3rd turret and the Main deck still houses the 4th turret as on design B. All 3 designs shows that the turret pairs share their armoured barbettes with each other.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, likely as design A so: 158,5 (pp) x 169,75 (wl) x 174,2 (oa) x 22,86 x 8,08m
Displacement: Unknown
Armour: 152mm belt, 25mm deck over Magazines, 19mm over Machinery
Engines: 42.000shp Vertical Triple Expansion engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments:
4x2 12"/50 (305mm/50) BL Mark XI Cannons, or /45 BL Mark X ones
16x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III Guns,
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

Untakeable (1-2-3-A-B-C)
HMS Untakeable the next battleship design from the now Admiral John Arbuthnot Fisher. He proposed a warship with excellent end-on fire as well as broadside, high speed preferably with all oil firing boilers, steam turbines and a good number of novel and unique aspects. Fisher envisioned a battleship which could approach the enemy unnoticed as close as it could via the less smoke production of oil fired boilers and a single mast for communications and hail down a hell of a fire with large number fast firing guns hence the name Untakeable as the enemy could not take over it's destructive power. After Fisher consulted with the naval architect William Henry Gard the preliminary calculations shown that the design would displace around 15.000tons, 9" lower. 7" upper belt and 3" deck armour for 21knots speed 30.000shp would be required (this value was overestimated greatly) and a hull close to 500 x 75ft. This was only a basic calculation and Fisher included a number of unique aspects in his design.

The design's most striking and unique features are:
- Superfiring position of the 10" turrets to provide excellent firing angles
- two-tow turrets aft and one-one twin 7,5" turrets at the sides which has twice the fire rate as the 10" guns and provide greater firing arcs at the corners of the ship as well as forward and aft: 4-4 turrets each
- 4" guns to counter enemy torpedo-boats and destroyers in blast free positions
- Armoured conning tower for centralised fire control only forward (Which only appears on RN ships much later)
- Telescopic funnels which theoretically would provide less obstructions for the main weapons of the ship arc of fire as well as reduce the silhouette of the ship while approaching the enemy though the issues with the toxic gases seems not thought over
- Gantry crane system for the ship boats to be loaded and unloaded as the single thin polemast would not be enough for them
- Collapsible Berthon Boats stored under the main deck in protected rooms and quickly released by the side openings because it was expected that both the main boats and cranes would be unusable after the battle.
- Linoleum covered deck instead of wood planks to reduce damage to the crew.

You can read some more information here:
www.tapatalk.com/groups/allthe…

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 143,25 (pp) x 153 (wl) x 157,9 (oa) x 24,4 x 7,62m
Displacement: Around 15.000tons (standard)
Armour: 178-229mm belt, 76mm deck
Engines: Around 24-25.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 39km/h (21knots)
Armaments: 
2x2 10"/50 (256mm/50) BL Mark V Guns,
6x2 7,5"/50 (190mm/50) BL Mark II Guns,
10x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

In parallel with the first Untakeable design Fisher proposed a modified version an even more unique design where all the machinery was located aft and all the armament forward in a sort of Nelson / N3 arrangemet the very first in history if we do not count the single turreted Victorias and Itsukushimas. The pros of this layout are that the funnels are far away from the command facilities and command positions and when the telescopic funnels were lowered the aft turrets firing angles will be unobstructed. But the issues would be a longer belt armour as the machinery space are longer as well as cramped due the extreme aft position and the cut quarterback will likely be wet in bad sea states. 

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 143,25 (pp) x 153 (wl) x 157,9 (oa) x 24,4 x 7,62m
Displacement: Around 15.000tons (standard)
Armour: 178-229mm belt, 76mm deck
Engines: Around 24-25.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 39km/h (21knots)
Armaments: 
2x2 10"/50 (256mm/50) BL Mark V Guns,
6x2 7,5"/50 (190mm/50) BL Mark II Guns,
12x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

Fisher continuously worked / proposed improvements on his Untakeable design where in around 1902 he proposed very likely the very first battleship with Uniform armament more closely resembling what became HMS Dreadnought then the previous HMS Nonsuch. The 3rd incarnation of HMS Untakeable or Design A shows a uniform 10" main armament on the same layout as Design 1 but on a longer hull to maintain the desired high 21knots speed because of the increased weight of the 8 twin 10" turrets some other aspects were discarded like the Berthon boat stowage and all oil propulsion which was modified to mixed oil and coal one.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 152,4 (pp) x 161,5 (wl) x 166,5 (oa) x 24,4 x 7,62m
Displacement: Around 17.000tons (standard)
Armour: 178-229mm belt, 76mm deck
Engines: Around 24-25.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 39km/h (21knots)
Armaments: 
8x2 10"/50 (256mm/50) BL Mark V Guns,
12x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

This is basically almost identical to HMS Untakeable Design 3 but modified by Admiral John Rushworth Jellicoe and Admiral Sir Reginald Hugh Spencer Bacon to be more in standard of the Royal Navy construction practices of the time. They initiated the following changes:
- removed the Gantry crane system and replaced by cranes for boat handling
- all oil fuel propulsion was discarded for mixed oil and coal fuel
- regular funnels instead of telescoping ones
- stronger tripod mast instead of thin polemast
- addition of spotting top / lookout post at the top of the mainmast
Jellicoe and Bacon did not believed that 10" armament would be enough for a capital ship at the time and they wanted larger weapons and used Untakeable A as a starting point for further development

Otherwise the general aspects like dimensions, armament and armour remained the same as Design 3

Design B was essentially a Design 3 / Design A but with 12" armament in 4 twin turrets rather 10" guns which was forced by Admiral John Rushworth Jellicoe and Admiral Sir Reginald Hugh Spencer Bacon. The weight saved by using only 4 twin turrets went into better armour having the belt increased from 9" main and 7" upper to 12" main and 9" upper belt. The description about the design is vague and indicates it was not well developed as the single mainmast location is questionable. Either located aft of the bridge to act as a spotting top and radio mast but then boat handling requires a smaller single polemast aft but not taller then the funnels, or it was to be located behind the 1st funnel where it would likely hamper the spotting top, and the boat storage would be between the funnels meaning the secondary 4" guns had to be placed elsewhere. Additional info compared to the previous design is the likely inclusion of a torpedo director and 5 torpedo tubes: 2 per sides and 1 aft.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 152,4 (pp) x 161,5 (wl) x 166,5 (oa) x 24,4 x 7,62m
Displacement: Around 16-17.000tons (standard)
Armour: 229-256mm belt, 64mm deck, 64mm slopes
Engines: Around 24-25.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 39km/h (21knots)
Armaments: 
4x2 12"/45 (305mm/45) BL Mark X Guns,
16x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

The final and ultimate incarnation of the Untakeable concept created by Fisher. This design was propsed during the development of HMS Dreadnought and influenced the preliminary designs C1 and C2 but due to it's last minute addition to the series as both Admiral Jellicoe or Bacon disliked superfiring turrets and they would more then likely not approved or changed the design. None the less this proposal was far more superior to the Dreadnought because it has the same end on fire both forward and aft: 6-6 guns in 3-3 turrets and an 50% more broadside from 12 guns instead of 8 of Dreadnought and the light armament was also much stronger being the 4"/40 quick firing guns rather the smaller 3" ones.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, simulations provide the following: 169,16 (pp) x 177,66 (wl) x 182,4 (oa) x 25,6 x 8,11m
Displacement: 20.700tons (standard)
Armour: 229-256mm belt, 64mm deck, 64mm slopes
Engines: Around 30-32.000shp Steam Turbines engines, 4 shafts
Range: 7.400km at 18km/h (4.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 39km/h (21knots)
Armaments: 
6x2 12"/45 (305mm/45) BL Mark X Guns,
16x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

hms_untakeable_design_c_by_tzoli_dfeqq8i

secretprojects.co.uk/threads/fishers-warship-proposals

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/alltheworldsbattlecruisers/fisher-s-uncatchable-and-the-invincible-preliminar-t9220.html#p26221

HMS Fusion Design X4 Battleship (1905)

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After Lord Fisher proposed his Untakeable and Uncatchable designs which produced the battleship HMS Dreadnought and the two battlecruiser classes of the Invincible and Indefatigable, he returned with a new design in 1905. A warship armed and armoured like a battleship with the speed of a dreadnought-cruiser or battlecruiser hence the name HMS Fusion or Fusion design because it fused all the aspects of the previous capital ships into a single hull.
HMS Fusion essentially a flush decked, up-gunned (both in number and barrel length calibre) and up-armoured Indefatigable. The main armament was Fisher's long advocated 50 calibre 12" Mark XI cannon in two twin and two triple turrets, being the triple ones on the wings providing an 8 gun end on fire with a 10 gun broadside. Flush deck because Fisher always advocated such a hull shape if possible. General superstructure layout followed hat of the Indefatigable class battlecruisers with changes according to the wider hull and triple wing turrets. Secondary armament was as described in the available documents: all eight of the 4" guns are located on the stern under and around the 4th main turret, while the rest of the anti-torpedo boat gun armament the eighteen 3" guns were distributed among 3 positions: The forward superstructure, the aft superstructure and on the stern. To achieve the desired speed of 24knots or 44km/h a large power plant of 45.000shp was required which was almost twice that was used on the HMS Dreadnought's 23.000shp one and only slightly stronger than Invincible's 41.000 and Indefatigable's 44.000shp plants.
All these aspects meant quite a heavy hull as the standard displacement risen to a whopping 22.500tons which produced a heft price tag on the design and which eventually meant the death of the construction of these vessels as the parliament did not voted it's construction, as 3 such ships equaled in costs to 4 Dreadnoughts!

So here is my interpretation of John Fisher's HMS Fusion design, the first Fast Battleship to incorporate battleship grade armament and armour with battlecruiser level speed.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 176,78 (pp) x 189,89 (oa) x 25,3 x 8,41m
Displacement: 22.500tons (standard), 23.926tons (full load)
Armour: 279mm Belt, 43mm Deck, 68mm Slopes
Engines: 45.000shp Parsons Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 44km/h (24knots)
Armaments:
2x3,2x2 12"/50 (305mm/50) BL Mark XI Cannons,
8x1 4"/50 (102mm/50) BL Mk VII Guns,
18x1 3"/50 (76mm/50) QF Mark I Guns,
3x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
More info can be found here:

www.tapatalk.com

All the World's Battlecruisers-What if ... Fisher gets the X4 Fusion ... what's the impact?

Hello to everyone, I finally made it back to this place ... a new computer and issues with the password reset, but it is finally taken care of.
www.tapatalk.com www.tapatalk.com


HMS Nonpareil Battleship Series (1908-11)
1908 Variant

/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fimages-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com%2Ff%2F08aa4d77-0718-40f2-bb4a-c61352d22946%2Fdgi0h2c-c46f4a6c-9f6f-44fc-b915-5c7b9a4c3c86.png%3Ftoken%3DeyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzA4YWE0ZDc3LTA3MTgtNDBmMi1iYjRhLWM2MTM1MmQyMjk0NlwvZGdpMGgyYy1jNDZmNGE2Yy05ZjZmLTQ0ZmMtYjkxNS01YzdiOWE0YzNjODYucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.hBi_Op4Roesg4WVDPkywA2rsiV15src5bZCjhp9P1Ew&hash=8b8fec8a30f163c10a2049f967d0c86d



In early part of 1908 Sir John Arbuthnot Fisher, First Sea Lord of the Admiralty tried again to introduced the fast battleship into the fleet after the failure of HMS Fusion in 1905. Numerous letters between him and Sir Philip Watts as well as Reginald McKenna, First Sea Lord shows what is fisher wanted for the next construction programme: A Fast capital ship of 28knots (52km/h) eight 13,5" cannons arranged as in Neptune so superfiring pair forward with the rest on the centreline midship and aft. He thought that by using small tube boilers, considerable space could be freed up by a heavily reduced machinery space and thus quite a shortened citadel to around 98-110meters (Lion had 151meters of armoured citadel length). The resulting compact citadel as well as the use of the much more effective and reduced number of small tube boilers created a ship with long sheer forward, long quarterdeck, closely spaced turrets (Compared to Lion) and a single funnel. Fisher named her Nonpareil because it is unparalleled, without equal among the capital ships afloat, it is both as fast as a battlecruiser and as armed as no other battleship!

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, Likely around Lion sized so 213,4 (oa) x 27 x 7,4m
Displacement: Around 22.000tons (standard)
Armour: 229mm Belt, 25-51mm Deck
Engines: Around 70-75.000shp Parsons Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 52km/h (28knots)
Armaments:
4x2 13,5"/45 (343mm/45) BL Mark V Light Cannons,
12x1 4"/50 (102mm/50) BL Mk VII Guns,
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

HMS Sanspareil Battleship (1908)

/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fimages-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com%2Ff%2F08aa4d77-0718-40f2-bb4a-c61352d22946%2Fdgipejz-6c21a8d3-0182-4202-a13e-fa906a7953ba.png%3Ftoken%3DeyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzA4YWE0ZDc3LTA3MTgtNDBmMi1iYjRhLWM2MTM1MmQyMjk0NlwvZGdpcGVqei02YzIxYThkMy0wMTgyLTQyMDItYTEzZS1mYTkwNmE3OTUzYmEucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.oQk0OUU4ehgjFSECUZXJZ185b0vJFi7_QgEisfC7z9w&hash=3a1c9802d972fafcd2bb14648fcc600d



HMS Sanspareil was a design based on Fisher's ideas of the Nonpareil but proposed by Sir Philip Watts as an alternative to that design.
It features more standard Admirality elements as well as requiremnts by the Admirality of the time, namely a 10 gun broadside. Fisher and Watts expected (Also due to docking limiations) that the hull (And citadel) would be minimally, only 9ft or 2,74m longer than that of the Nonpareil yet it would had the same 28knots speed and similar armour to that of Nonpareil. Watts expected that while Nonapreil would easily exceed the desired 28knots speed, Sasnpareil with her deeper draft could reach the desired speed on the same shp.
Note: Sanspareil means the same as Nonpareil eg Without equal or unparalleled just Nonpareil is more comonly used by the British while Sansapreil or Sans Pareil by the French, though both are French words.
It is possible that this design and the ideas of Nonpareil was used as a basis for the development of the Lion class battlecruisers and the Orion class battleships.

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, but 9ft longer then Nonpareil so 216,15 (oa) x 27 x 8m
Displacement: Around 23.650tons (standard)
Armour: 229mm Belt, 25-51mm Deck
Engines: Around 70-75.000shp Parsons Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 52km/h (28knots)
Armaments:
5x2 13,5"/45 (343mm/45) BL Mark V Light Cannons,
16x1 4"/50 (102mm/50) BL Mk VII Guns,
2-4x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes

 

Pre-Incomparable Design 1912

by
Watch
Published:Dec 15, 2023
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Description

Fisher was in contact with the Vickers firm for some time and he often asked and discussed information regarding new technologies and ideas related to warships. He proposed a new kind of warship utilizing the then rapidly evolving technology of the internal combustion engine eg the Diesel Motors for it's propulsion which would radically reduce the citadel of a warship having requiring much less space for machinery but also immensely reducing the crew requirements by many 100 due to the removal of the manpower intensive Boilers and turbines. These aspects together with the minimal funnel required for Diesel engines, allowed basically the deletion of the entire superstructure dedicated for crew and officer spaces. Another aspects are the introduction of fully disappearing mountings for the 6" guns, the telescopic MACK (Mast and Stack) and the unusual placement of the conning towers on top of the superfiring turrets! Such ideas in minimalizing the above deck structures would had allowed for a very low silhouette battleship.
This small 
silhouette together with the basically invisible fumes of the Diesel engines would had made the ship very difficult to spot, especially in the usual weather of the Northern Sea and the Atlantic Ocean!
The Diesel engines would had been very big for their time having four 15.0000bhp 12 cylinder installed in the machinery parallel with each other each driving it's own shaft. To further reduce the silhouette and to protect the boats from damage or blast, they would had been protected under the main deck and could had been accessed via a sliding door.
Vickers created this design with the in-house number 623 and Fisher somewhat later used it as a basis for his first Incomparable battleship/battlecruiser designs!

The design had the following characteristics:

Dimensions: 184.4m (pp) x 27.43 meters
Displacement: 27.500tons (standard)
Armour: 356mm Belt, 76mm Deck
Engines: 56.000bhp (Equivalent to 75.000shp) Diesel engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 46km/h (25knots)
Armaments:
4x2 15"/42 (381mm/42) BL Mark I Light Cannons,
12x1 6"/50 (102mm/50) Vickers Mark R or BL Mk XIII Guns,
4x1 533mm Underwater torpedo tubes

Drawings based on official and original Vickers drawings:
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Edited by kriegerfaust
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HMS Uncatchable Design 😄
Design C is like the mix of the previous two with both Forecastle, Upper and Main decks and the associated turrets on them. Hull dimensions are unknown, John suggested the same hull as Invincible A while I remained with the same as Design A. The ship shows a characteristic sheer on all decks, the sketch drawing shows that the forecastle goes well behind the front turrets likely to the forwardmost funnel, the upper deck goes aft until the 3rd turret and the Main deck still houses the 4th turret as on design B. All 3 designs shows that the turret pairs share their armoured barbettes with each other.


The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: Unknown, likely as design A so: 158,5 (pp) x 169,75 (wl) x 174,2 (oa) x 22,86 x 8,08m
Displacement: Unknown
Armour: 152mm belt, 25mm deck over Magazines, 19mm over Machinery
Engines: 42.000shp Vertical Triple Expansion engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments: 
4x2 12"/50 (305mm/50) BL Mark XI Cannons, or /45 BL Mark X ones
16x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III Guns,
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
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Invincible Preliminary Design A:
The very first official design leading to the Invincible class Battlecruisers. Design A shows that the previous Uncatchable C was used as the basis for further development but with significant changes:
- Main armament changed to /45 calibre cannons,
- uneven number of 4" guns with the sketch drawing showing the 13rd one either poking out from the conning tower or bridge or as I think it should be placed on top of it.
- Massive superstructures behind the forwardmost turrets as well as a triangular or trapezoid shaped one behind the 3 turret to house the 4" guns and to allow them to fire directly forward or aft, above the main turrets.
- Four angled or raked long funnels
- Bridge structure very similar to that of adopted for the Minotaur class Armoured Cruisers
- 2 masts with the aft one supporting the boat crane
Hull wise one sketch shows the Fisher like clipper bow while other shows the traditional Ram bow, so I stayed with the clipper one. The forecastle deck goes well aft of the turrets incorporating part of the first funnel and holds the massive superstructure behind the turrets, the upper deck goes well aft till the 3rd turret but does not connect with the barbette and follows the shape of the superstructure on top of it while the main deck carries the aftermost turrets like on the previous design.


The design had the following characteristics:

Dimensions: 164,59 (pp) x 175,85 (wl) x 180,3 (oa) x 23,47 x 8,08m
Displacement: 17.000tons (standard)
Armour: 152mm belt, 25mm deck over Magazines, 19mm over Machinery
Engines: 41.000shp Vertical Triple Expansion engines, 4 shafts
Speed: 47km/h (25,5knots)
Armaments: 
4x2 12"/45 (305mm/45) BL Mark X Cannons
13x1 4"/40 (102mm/40) QF Mark III Guns,
5x1 457mm Underwater torpedo tubes
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Rest of the designs described by John:
Invincible Preliminary Design B:
Largely as Invincible A with the following differences:

Displacement 17,200 tons

Upper deck level extends all the way aft so freeboard aft is 16 feet. Both aft turrets are located at this deck level. Gun axis height aft is 6 feet above deck level which is 2 feet higher than normal.
Forecastle deck. If the later simpler drawings are indicative, then the forward sheer begins at the front edge of the fore funnel rather than the rear edge as in Invincible A.
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Invincible Preliminary Design 😄
Reduced Invincible B with only one turret aft.

Dimensions 520 feet x 76 feet x 26 feet.

Displacement 15,600 tons.

Forecastle deck. If the later simpler drawings are indicative, then the forward sheer begins well forward of the fore funnel and a small bit behind the fore barbette (beginning approximately two thirds of the distance between funnel and barbette).
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Invincible Preliminary Design 😧
A return to Untakeable B turret disposition as it was realised that two turrets could not be mounted side by side so far forward. There are actually two versions of the D design although they were both called D. I am calling them D and D1. This is D. The difference between the designs is that P and Q turrets were carried a deck lower in D. There is no detailed sketch or data sheet for D and some of the figures below are from the simple drawings with the rest extrapolated from D1’s data sheet.
 
Dimensions: 540 feet (BP) x 77 feet x 26½ feet.
 
Assuming as D1, freeboard at bow is 30 feet and freeboard at stern 16 feet. There is a sheer both forward and aft.
 
Displacement 16,950 tons.
 
Speed = 25 knots.
 
Protection as per D1’s ships cover data table. Unfortunately I messed up the photograph of this and many figures are blurred and I have to take guesses in places.
 
Belt armour extends to main deck level; 6 feet 6 inches feet above LWL. Deck height between lower and main deck is only 5 feet; the lowest I have ever noticed. However, it is mostly coal bunker space and I believe this to be a weight saving exercise. Aft and forward of the citadel the lower deck drops down increasing height to main deck) and making the spaces fore and aft more usable.
 
Upper deck amidships is 14 feet above LWL. Y, P and Q turrets are located at this level. 12-inch gun axis is 7 feet (I think) above upper deck level. I am guessing that the aft sheer starts aft of Y turret at 14 feet and rises to 16 feet at the stern.
 
Forecastle deck is, I am guessing, 22 feet above LWL. I don’t know where the forward sheer starts but the simple sketches suggest forward of the fore funnel, approximately one third of the distance between the forward edge of the funnel and the aft edge of A barbette. The forecastle deck in this case will be narrow as in Dreadnought and not extent to the sides of the ship as in the earlier designs. It likely extends almost as far aft as Y turret. The detailed sketch of D1 suggests that there may be a break in the deck between P and Q turrets: or maybe not. I suggest copying how P, Q and forecastle deck are managed in Dreadnought.
 
The detailed sketch for D1 has four superstructure bits 8 feet above the forecastle deck. This was likely done to raise the 4-inch guns above P and Q turrets (the boats are on the forecastle deck in between these raised structures). D probably did not have these with the 4-inch guns located on the forecastle deck.
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Invincible Preliminary Design D1:
Dimensions: 550 feet (BP) x 79 feet x 26½ feet.
 
Freeboard at bow is 30 feet and freeboard at stern 16 feet. There is a sheer both forward and aft.
 
Displacement 17,750 tons.
 
Speed = 25½ knots.
 
Protection as per ships cover data table.
 
Belt armour extends to main deck level; 6 feet 6 inches feet above LWL.
 
Upper deck amidships is 14 feet above LWL. Y turret is located at this level. 12-inch gun axis is 7 feet (I think) above upper deck level. I am guessing that the sheer starts aft of Y turret at 14 feet and rises to 16 feet at the stern.
 
Forecastle deck is I am guessing 22 feet above LWL. P, Q and A turrets are located at this deck level. 12-inch gun axis for P and Q is 8 feet (I think) above deck level (30 feet above LWL) and for A 34 feet above LWL. I don’t know where the forward sheer starts but probably as I am guessing for D. The faint blue lines on the detailed sketch outline the triangular shaped aft end of the forecastle deck which, unlike D, extends to the sides of the ship.
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Invincible Preliminary Design E:
Like Design D, there are two designs listed as E; again one with P and Q on upper deck and on with P and Q on forecastle deck. I am calling them E and E1. As with D, there is no detailed sketch or data sheet for E and some of the figures below are from the simple drawings with the rest extrapolated from E1’s data sheet. The only differences between D and E is that P and Q turrets are in echelon positions relative to each other to allow for some cross deck firing capacity if the opposite turret was disabled. Everything else is pretty much as in D.
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Invincible Preliminary Design E1:
Same relationship to D1 as E has to D.
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In the D and E designs, the Committee on Designs recognised that fire from six (or even four) guns directly ahead was not feasible leaving the “cruiser” weaker in direct ahead fire than what was required and so modifications of Invincible A were examined to see if fire from four guns direct ahead was feasible by utilising a similar turret arrangement as adopted for Dreadnought minus A turret. The four designs generated were all considered as Design F and were quickly rejected (F1,F2, F3, F4 are my designations and not official). There are no data sheets for these so use figures for Invincible A (or D1 or E1) when in doubt.

Invincible Preliminary Design F1:
This appears to be more a modification of D1 rather than A as the Report of the Committee on Designs states it is.
 
A and Y turrets are on the upper deck (I would guess 16 feet above LWL). There is a raised superstructure deck between them and P and Q turrets are on this deck; one deck height (8 feet) higher than A and Y turrets (technically a super-firing position).
 
I suspect that there is a sheer forward for a freeboard of between 18 or 20 feet. This would raise A turret slightly higher than Y turret. I suspect that the top of A turret is required to be just below the muzzles of P and Q to allow both these turrets shoot on the direct forward arcs and over the top of A turret. This gives the maximum height A turret can be raised. Assuming that a minimum gun axis height of 4 feet is required over the highest point of the sheer at the bow, once the maximum allowable height of A turret is known, then the maximum height of freeboard forward is known.
 
I would guess that the relatively low freeboard forward killed this design.
 
The conning tower is located between P and Q turrets with the magazines below within the area of the dashed lines. Only the funnels and mast bases would be subject to blast when firing directly fore and aft. I am not sure where the boats would be located, perhaps the funnels are wide enough apart to stack the boats in between. If not then they are probably on the flat deck area aft of P and Q turrets. In wartime most of the boats would be sent ashore anyway so they would not be in the way.
 
Mounting the 4-inch guns doesn’t seem possible at the same level as P and Q turrets. Maybe they are on the upper deck level firing out through gun ports in the superstructure sides. There are probably a couple fore and aft on the centreline super-firing over A and Y turrets.
 
I just occurred to me that this turret arrangement may have been inspired by the turret arrangement of the Unapproachable and Untakeable (up to A) designs where wing turrets super-fire over turrets well forward and aft of them. You may be able to get some design help from your earlier work.
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Invincible Preliminary Design F2:
Pretty much the same as F1 except P and Q are now in an en echelon arrangement and appear to have a genuine cross deck firing capacity as in the later Indefatigable. The central conning tower would be behind the muzzles when cross deck firing and so escape the worst of the muzzle blast. I imagine that it would still be an unpleasant place to be all the same.
 
The internal layout appears interesting with the engine rooms en echelon in opposition to the en echelon turrets.
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Invincible Preliminary Design F3:
F3 is more a modification of Invincible A than F1 or F2. From what has gone previously, I expect X, P and Q turrets to be located at forecastle deck level, 24 feet above LWL. Due to the need for the two wing turrets to fire directly forward, I would expect there to be no sheer. If there is a sheer to 30 feet above LWL, then both wing turrets would need to be in raised positions above the deck which may have implications for stability.
 
Y turret will be at upper deck level, 16 feet above LWL. There may be, or may not be, a two foot sheer aft: You have artistic license on that one.
 
Y and X turret appear to be in a slightly separated super-firing arrangement with engine room and main mast aft of X. I can’t imagine this feature was acceptable to Jellicoe and his supporter.
 
The conning tower is forward in this design which surprises me as it would be subjected to the muzzle blast that the Committee was trying to avoid. I am curious as to why the wing turrets weren’t located further back between the second and third funnels. Perhaps they needed the weight further forward to balance the ship.
 
Presumably there was some centreline superstructure (as in D1) for mounting 4-inch guns.
 
The forecastle is shown terminating in a straight line between X and Y turrets. I suspect that this was an error an that the usual triangular termination to alloy Y turret wider firing arcs would be used.
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Invincible Preliminary Design F4:
F4 is the same as F3 except the engine room is now separating X and Y turrets. The lack of a fourth funnel on the drawing is, I suspect, an error. It is, after all, a very crude sketch.
 
With X located similarly to the later Tiger, firing over Y should have been possible with this separation yet, the indications are that the mainmast would be located in a position to prevent this. The firing arc indicated for X shows that this turret was only expected to be used on the broadside so I guess they were still concerned about blast effects on Y.
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One more unique design which might be in connection with the above, but at least discussed in the paper containing these proposals:
Modified Minotaur or actual Minotaur design modified with uniform armament:
Simply an enlarged Minotaur to carry 16x9.2-inch guns at 23 knots. Probably 16,000 tons and Uncatchable A like dimensions.
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