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Why is Tirpitz so much better then Bismark?


mashed68

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I free XP'd threw the Bismark the 2nd time I ground the line. Then I got Tirpitz from a santa crate and gave it a go, and holy crap is it fun.  So why does it work so much better? No, its not the torpedos. And Tirpitz doesn't get hydro. Yet she seems like she takes hits better, but her main guns seem massively better at actually hitting things. They shouldn't be, yet my results playing these two ships tells a different story. Anyone else get similar results? 

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No, but that's not to invalidate your view. Maybe you have an attacking mindset and Tirpitz suits you better?  I think Bismarck is tankier, and that her secondaries are better. I also think that's because I'm playing her without the "get out of jail free" torpedo card in my head and not taking so many risks, and that reins in my more impulsive plans.

Edited by invicta2012
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What now seems like ages ago, the Atago and Tirpitz were some of the first premium ships I picked up.  I always liked the Tirpitz, but in today's game, with more torps and, of course, subs, the availability of hydro on the Bismarck is a big plus.  Having the torps, as the Tirpitz does, comes in handy but is really situational.  Just my two cents.

Both are fun ships to play, but in today's game at T8, I would give the edge to Bismarck.

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Reason is Tirpitz better due various that work together, sure as good secondary, health point, armor, and torp, it's great as brawl ship, but it's not best of best, but jack of all bb, I think, and  along cheaper service and making more credit than tech ship due premium ships.

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2 hours ago, mashed68 said:

I got Tirpitz from a santa crate and gave it a go, and holy crap is it fun.

I played the Tirpitz back when I was on a Corgi account. I too thought it a fun ship. Back then, people weren't used to seeing BBs with torpedoes so you could definitely surprise them in a close-in brawl with it.

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The Tirpitz has the advantages of being a premium ship and thus can train captains for the german line.

Tirpitz' secondary angles to the front are better than Bismarck's.

Tirpitz has torps but they are only 6km.

Bismarck is free. 

Bismarck has better AA.

Bismarck has hydro.

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I have both and play them reguarly and clearly prefer Tirpitz too. It's very subjective, but she feels more agile, handy than Bismarck. Her main guns deliver better over all ranges. Together with Massa one of my absolute favorites on Tier VIII and in general. Worth every penny I spent on her. 

Edited by OT2_2
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Do you have the same build on each of them.   First time i played though Bismark i found her lacking.   Fast forward a few years, I put a secondary spec on her and she mows stuff down.   However it was like she had no sigma at all.   Switched back mod for or whatever it is back to accuracy of main guns and the accuracy seems much better.    As for the tirps, it's supposed to be basically the same thing at this stage in the game (minus the said differences with torps/hydro) maybe with some AA variances.   However, i've enjoyed the Bismark games a bit more.    End of the day it probably comes down to randomness of the matches and your current rigged games status.

Edited by WES_HoundDog
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I have my 21pt Lutjens secondary spec'd for Bismarck and play him on not only Bismarck, but Tirpitz, Pommern, Brandenburg, Odin, P.E. Friedrich, Scharnhorst (and '43) and G. Kurfurst (AB, R.I.P...). He also runs my Mainz, Prinz Eugen, Munchen, Weimar and Graf Spee as well as my T-61. By far my most used captain.

I notice little difference in my Tirpitz / Bismarck. If anything, I find the Bismarck to be more fun except when the earnings screen pops up at the end. Since I mainly play Ops, and the bots target the center of the ship, Tirpitz often gets its torpedo tubes destroyed. They come in handy sometimes but without them, you're basically a Bismarck without hydro. I think what @invicta2012 said above comes into play a bit. I don't think about having torps when I play Bismarck.

Both ships suffer from wonky main gunnery a lot but the secondaries make up for it in Ops.

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6 hours ago, Chysagon said:

Bismarck has better AA.

Not that it matters, AA is irrelevant except maybe a dozen(more or less) select surface ships at most.

7 hours ago, HogHammer said:

What now seems like ages ago, the Atago and Tirpitz were some of the first premium ships I picked up.  I always liked the Tirpitz, but in today's game, with more torps and, of course, subs, the availability of hydro on the Bismarck is a big plus.  Having the torps, as the Tirpitz does, comes in handy but is really situational.  Just my two cents.

Both are fun ships to play, but in today's game at T8, I would give the edge to Bismarck.

The hydro is nice, but its not quite that good. In many ways its also extremely situational(such as being on a flank with no DDs). Tirpitz's torps, though situational as well, are a far better tool for a brawler than hydro is. Hydro is for more passive play, which Bismarck isn't suited for. Randoms hydro does see a bit more value. However in ranked, its a whole different ball game. Tirpitz's torps give her a significant edge amongst other tier VIII BBs and tie her for the first place BB pick alongside Atlantico. It allows you to deal heavy damage during brawls(or at the very least it can force opposing BBs and CA/CLs into bad positions to avoid them) and win battles sooner in order to maintain your health pool.

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erm... it not is "so much better" by any means ^^. it's a simple choice between hydro and torps in the end, while the hydro is quite less situational and more of use for a brawler imo.

2cts

 

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10 hours ago, mashed68 said:

I free XP'd threw the Bismark the 2nd time I ground the line. Then I got Tirpitz from a santa crate and gave it a go, and holy crap is it fun.  So why does it work so much better? No, its not the torpedos. And Tirpitz doesn't get hydro. Yet she seems like she takes hits better, but her main guns seem massively better at actually hitting things. They shouldn't be, yet my results playing these two ships tells a different story. Anyone else get similar results? 

Eh no not really. I have owned both and played both for not an insignificant amount of time. I feel like they're very similar with the only differences being with how one has hydro while the other has torpedoes. It could be your playstyle and positioning that's making you get easier shots on target with Tirpitz while with Bismarck you might have positioned somewhere else.

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That's interesting.

Well, in my experience, all premiums "feel better' to play. Not necessarily because they are better performing ships, but because the experience playing them, is simply, better. They feel more  "put together", more compact, as an actual  "finished product". Even a fully researched TT ship doesn't gives that distinct feeling (except maybe some T10's ) and this is not a self induced placebo, like  " ah, premiums have better earnings" or "I don't have to research, to grind" or "ah is a premium" .

I thought about it why this could be, especially with close sister ships and came to conclusion that the fact that premiums don't have researchable modules makes the experience more enjoyable. Premiums doesn't have those variables, which in turn could induce calculus errors, like rounding errors and alike.

They are as is and they feel more "put together", compact, more responsive. In contrast TT ships feel a bit like "the screws and bolts are a bit loosened". For example nobody can say that Makarov is a better ship then Nurnberg. Worse Hydro, worse torps and yet I actually enjoy playing her in T6 ranked. 

Edited by Andrewbassg
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2 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

That's interesting.

Well, in my experience, all premiums "feel better' to play. Not necessarily because they are better performing ships, but because the experience playing them, is simply, better. They feel more  "put together", more compact, as an actual  "finished product". Even a fully researched TT ship doesn't gives that distinct feeling (except maybe some T10's ) and this is not a self induced placebo, like  " ah, premiums have better earnings" or "I don't have to research, to grind" or "ah is a premium" .

I thought about it why this could be, especially with close sister ships and came to conclusion that the fact that premiums don't have researchable modules makes the experience more enjoyable. Premiums doesn't have those variables, which in turn could induce calculus errors, like rounding errors and alike.

They are as is and they feel more "put together", compact, more responsive. In contrast TT ships feel a bit like "the screws and bolts are a bit loosened". For example nobody can say that Makarov is a better ship then Nurnberg. Worse Hydro, worse torps and yet I actually enjoy playing her in T6 ranked. 

I guess it also depends on how good captains you have on the premiums/tech tree ships. You have a new German Premium Tirpitz from the Santas box, your 21 p Lütjens is ready. Your Biz you maybe have a 10 p newly recruited captain, when you have sent your captain up the tech tree ladder.

Personally Biz through its history made me go for a full captain as soon as possible together with the camo/bonus  package. Tirpitz I also got through Christmas and if I remember correctly the secs were shorter ranged in the beginning on Tirpitz. 

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22 minutes ago, Gnirf said:

I guess it also depends on how good captains you have on the premiums/tech tree ships. You have a new German Premium Tirpitz from the Santas box, your 21 p Lütjens is ready. Your Biz you maybe have a 10 p newly recruited captain, when you have sent your captain up the tech tree ladder.

Personally Biz through its history made me go for a full captain as soon as possible together with the camo/bonus  package. Tirpitz I also got through Christmas and if I remember correctly the secs were shorter ranged in the beginning on Tirpitz. 

Those are good points. Still in my case,  having more than enough 21 pointers.... that's  a non issue. As for the exact Biz/Tirpitz comparison, i don't usually play BB's, my experience is with premiums, in general. And I repeat, its not like premiums are better performance wise. But. again, in my experience , they do  provide a more enjoyable experience.

i already described my impressions, but here is another one  its like the difference between driving a brand new car vs a car having the exact or almost the same performance , but 6-10 years older. Now, all of them being digital products, seems  a bit silly as acomparison, but i'm talking about the experience. Feelings are not easy to quantify, however that was literally my job for 30+ years ( musician/sound engineer/producer)

That's why  I think the modules are the "culprit", coz thats the only thing that would make.... well sense.

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17 hours ago, mashed68 said:

I free XP'd threw the Bismark the 2nd time I ground the line. Then I got Tirpitz from a santa crate and gave it a go, and holy crap is it fun.  So why does it work so much better? No, its not the torpedos. And Tirpitz doesn't get hydro. Yet she seems like she takes hits better, but her main guns seem massively better at actually hitting things. They shouldn't be, yet my results playing these two ships tells a different story. Anyone else get similar results? 

The first thing to understand is a lot of your play experience is based on factors beyond your control and agency. Things like the tier spread you are playing and the comps of the teams can vary wildly from day to day, session to session or even hour to hour. You can play the exact same ship and get wildly different results at different times, very likely it isn't you, it isn't your ship, it is the environment that varies wildly. After a significant enough number of matches, the results should converge to more similar values. 

As an example, my own results for the Myoko clones:

image.thumb.png.d02a38bcc95f4f8bd5daaf6e733dc8e9.png

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2 hours ago, Gnirf said:

I guess it also depends on how good captains you have on the premiums/tech tree ships. You have a new German Premium Tirpitz from the Santas box, your 21 p Lütjens is ready. Your Biz you maybe have a 10 p newly recruited captain, when you have sent your captain up the tech tree ladder.

Definitely something I forgot to consider. I have Lutgens at 18points on Tirptiz, Bismark only got 10 points. 

 

16 hours ago, WES_HoundDog said:

Do you have the same build on each of them.   First time i played though Bismark i found her lacking.   Fast forward a few years, I put a secondary spec on her and she mows stuff down.   However it was like she had no sigma at all.   Switched back mod for or whatever it is back to accuracy of main guns and the accuracy seems much better.    As for the tirps, it's supposed to be basically the same thing at this stage in the game (minus the said differences with torps/hydro) maybe with some AA variances.   However, i've enjoyed the Bismark games a bit more.    End of the day it probably comes down to randomness of the matches and your current rigged games status.

That's the thing, I built Bismark with accuracy in the 3rd slot because I wanted it to work and grind the line. Tirpitz I just went full secondary build for fun, yet it seems to be more accurate with its main guns anyways. 

9 hours ago, MBT808 said:

Tirpitz's torps give her a significant edge amongst other tier VIII BBs and tie her for the first place BB pick alongside Atlantico. 

Blasphemy! *Massachusettes has entered the conversation* lol 

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On 1/19/2024 at 4:43 PM, mashed68 said:

I free XP'd threw the Bismark the 2nd time I ground the line. Then I got Tirpitz from a santa crate and gave it a go, and holy crap is it fun. 

Sometimes it's not the ship, but the aggrefate of one's expereicne over the intervening time.

I hated Colorado when I first ground the US line.  Something about losing all those 14 inchers from the earlier line and not yet getting to those triple turrets and faster speed of the up line. After I played a while and learned a few things, I went back to CO and found it to be an exceptional ship.  Part of that exceptional part brought me to West Virginia when it came out, which has turned out to be one of my most successful ships.

Personally, I like Bismarck because of the hydro.  In the early days it also had better secondaries than Tirp..since equalized.  Hydro is, IMHO, MUCH more useful than Tirp torps.

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spacer.png  

Bismarck and Tirpitz?  Yeah, I sailed them.
Both of them were so much fun, that it felt like I was the one getting the bonus plan.  😉 


More seriously, I do enjoy sailing both the Bismarck and the Tirpitz.  They're each a 'gud bote' in their own right.
Their variations upon a common hull keep things interesting, while each delivers solid firepower at close-to-medium ranges and a nice secondary-battery suite.
The torpedoes versus consumables differences allow a player to select the right ship for the anticipated circumstances.

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14 hours ago, mashed68 said:

Blasphemy! *Massachusettes has entered the conversation* lol 

Not blasphemy, just statistics. Massachusetts has okay guns, fast heal, and accurate secondaries. Tirpitz has better guns generally speaking(partially due to access to ASM1 and significantly better ballistics), 1/4 HE secondaries, better raw durability, faster while anlso being more maneuverable, and torps. In a brawl, Tirpitz played properly should always beat Massachusetts(assuming full health and both ships using their respective tool kits optimally in 1v1). Atlantico can also beat Massachusetts playing to her strengths with her heavier broadside, extremely good armor, god tier concealment for a BB, and superior secondaries.

Massachusetts heal is nice against fire damage and what not, but it’s no better than a standard heal when faced with citadel damage. Her secondaries are accurate but lack the penetration to deal consistent damage in close range to opposing BBs. She’s slow for her tier. Her main battery deal decent damage but is otherwise unremarkable.

The big thing that brings Massachusetts down in ranked is one fatal flaw: her armor scheme. It’s extremely weak to the point that a cruiser with ambition can citadel you. While Tirpitz will be heavily damaged it caught out, a Massachusetts can be outright crippled if caught in a bad spot by another BB. Remember her heal does next to nothing against citadel damage, so spamming heals won’t help you.

All that said, Massachusetts is still a good choice for ranked and playing in general. She’s a decent ship overall that can do quite well, but she’s not broken as some believe(If we want to talk broken then we're going to be discussing Georgia). I wouldn’t say she’s the best choice for ranked simply because she’s facing some stiff competition and decent players in Ranked that know her weaknesses(except maybe this season).

Edited by MBT808
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