Torpedo Marksmanship

[thornzero]

I have spent a lot of time with gun boat DDs but I could use some help with torpedo DDs.

So in my search I found this document which might help others interested.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/u/0/d/135fIxD-h16n4C5pSvLynJ9gi2JhkaAE808N1yfEbUBU/htmlpresent?pli=1

In the meantime, if anyone has advice on torpedo destroyers, I am interested to learn more.

[Snargfargle]

Here is how to play a DD:

 

[BOBTHEBALL]

20 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

Here is how to play a DD:

 

Eh I don't like Flambass, there are much better options out there.

[Snargfargle]

13 minutes ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

Eh I don't like Flambass, there are much better options out there.

Like him or not, you can't argue with this as an example of decent DD play.

[BOBTHEBALL]

1 minute ago, Snargfargle said:

Like him or not, you can't argue with this as an example of decent DD play.

Eh I'd rather guide people towards Malta, Carbine Carlito and I know he's controversial but Flamu is still a good player with great guides from the past which are still awesome.

[mashed68]

Flambass is one of the better DD players, but Flamu will always be king. All hail the king! 

[torino2dc]

14 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

Like him or not, you can't argue with this as an example of decent DD play.

In case folks don't know, Flambass was one of the starting DDs on the first "super-team" (OMNI) that dominated the early years of competitive WoWS. He was, at one point, the best in the world at his craft.

Knowing this context, the video is painful to watch. He starts out contesting the cap with bad technique (nose-in against DDs that outspot him), losing half his health. He gets really lucky that the two red DDs opposite are novices and gift their ships to him. A bit later he inexplicably tries to sneak up on a Duke of York (a BB he should know has hydro) and loses another quarter of his HP for nothing. Moving from B to C as a one-shot he peaks a corner with no info what is on the other side. Later on he doesn't cap A-cap even though flipping it was the single best thing he could have done to increase win chance. He got super lucky that his Stord '43 had the guts to steal back the C cap despite enemies nearby. 

If folks are interested we can do a detailed breakdown of the tape; it is an excellent example of why good numbers don't mean good technique. 

---

What is particularly galling is his persistent self-congratulatory tone, as if his performance a) wasn't riddled with misplays that he should know better than to make; and b) he wasn't playing against mostly beginners in a T5-T7 match. At that tier, a world championship caliber player should be hauling in scores like that *every game*. He frankly should be embarrassed that he even considers it extraordinary enough to go on YouTube. 

[Snargfargle]

You can have "good technique" as a DD player and still fail miserably. For instance, you ask for support and receive a "Wilco," then go into a cap and put an island between yourself and the enemy, depending on two cruisers and a battleship right behind you to back you up. Just before you get under cover, you are radared, as you knew you would be, but it's OK because you the Salem that spotted you fired its guns and is now visible and in range of the guns of your three teammates. That is, it would be if not for the fact that are nowhere now to be found, having decided to join a lemming train and head off to the opposite corner of the map with them.

[torino2dc]

8 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

You can have "good technique" as a DD player and still fail miserably.

Good technique is context dependent. A strong play in clan battles (sacrificing some health so that your gun line can focus a target) is not always a strong play in randoms. Because randoms have no voice comms to verify teammates intent (and no guarantee of their mechanical ability to achieve what you want them to), sacrificing health to enable them is much more risky. 

That's why I would hesitate to call the scenario you described "good randoms technique" since it has such a prominent failure point.  

[thornzero]

The thing about randoms is there is generally no support. I don't ask and if support is there I am grateful. But I'm operating as if there isn't any because the majority of the time there isn't. The red team typically will support the DD once the enemy DD is spotted, they all focus down on it. I never seem to get these actions on my team and I no longer rush the cap. Even in a gun boat DD I am more cautious just because the first cap isn't usually the last cap. I try to keep at least one cruiser at arm's length for focus fire.

The funny thing is, you get yelled at either way. Rush the cap - get yelled at. Cautiously deal with the cap - get yelled at. 

The thing with torpedo boats is the cautiously dealing with the cap is more so than the gun boat. And the funny thing is, I haven't been getting yelled at as much with this change of play. 

[Spent_AlimonyOnKitakami]

Here is some general tip for torpboat, coming from player that has played basically every DD in the game except Yueyang line,

1) Understand in every engagement what you are losing your HP for, don't lose it for no reason. Most torpboat don't have heal, or if you do (Pan EU line), you lose your HP so easily for reason like fat hull/low speed/no smoke/etc that HP conservation is not any less important, any HP you lose during the course of a game is PERM. You cannot get it back. If you lose HP, do not lose it for no reason.

2) Also understand you use your HP to do things. Tanking a radar for e.g. will never result in you not losing HP, but the aim of the game is not to save all your HP but to use it and still live. By the 10 minute mark, a Shima on 30-50% HP that contributed greatly to the death of the enemy DD on the flank is better than 85% HP Shima that still have to contend with full HP DD on their flank. The objective is to win, so you must understand you must use your HP efficiently

3) Use your gun more often. Getting the first salvo off because of conceal advantage win you more gunfight than you think. Getting a torp hit, proccing a flood, forcing a DCP then farming 2 fires on the target with guns can net you 30k damage or more, gun is your most consistent form of damage

4) Understand the details of the torp you are using. For e.g., Halland torp is easy to land due to the fact that it have Shima 12km detect but great speed, but you need to be aware you are not going to one shot targets easily. To prevent them from surviving succesful torpedo attacka nd healing, attack cruisers from broadsides to land more torp and one shot them for e.g.

Shima torp on the other hand, really just need to land one torp on cruiser/DD to cripple them. However, because of higher detect and harder to hit, you need to think more about creating a 'crossfire' with your torp, using enemy ships angling for e.g. to BB salvo to your advantage

YY torp and deepwater torp like Asashio is easily intercepted by DD because they can screen your torps for free (they cannot be hit), so torping where the enemy DD isn't or dispatching the enemy DD is actually incredibly beneficial to your game impact

5) Everyone tell you this already but when you torp and predict, you must think about what the ship you are torping is thinking. What is the ship u r torping going to do in the next 1-2 minutes? What thing/objective must that ship do to win/help win the game for their team, and what position must they go to to do that? What is the fastest route for them to do that? Etc etc etc

When you think like this you can make even unsuccesful torpedo attack beneficial, because it can slow down a push, zone out an area or make enemy team in general more hesitant about performing certain action

6) Don't always torp white line (torpedo predicted path when you lock on to a target). This kind of have to do with 5). For e.g., if at the moment you are torping someone they are in the open and are at 1/4 or 1/2 speed, 90% chance they are not going to maintain that speed in such a dangerous position, just think about it.

7) When you are torping one zone, spread out your torp dispersion cone like the graphic below to make the gaps between your torps tighter

😎 When you torping your second set using TRB (e.g. Aki to Haru), make sure the torpedo prediction calculation factors in the target seeing and responding to your first set. This usually result in your second set being closer to your first than you think, if you are torping a target you have the broadside of

9) Stay locked off your target around 80-90% of the time. Only lock-on to your target in the 3-5s required to get information about where the white line is (to now how far the torps need to be led- do not rely on this information, but as long as you know) and torp. This is because better player that use PT (2 pt skill) use the fact you are locked on to know they are being targetted by unspotted ship, and will be more cautious and evasive to your torps

10) On this note, good torpboat player also understand the value of target that is being pressured, focused, etc. Even if the damage coming towards them is minimal, these players lose concentration. Good to torp

11) Do not be afraid to rush target. See 2). Rushing target successfully can make or break a game, and is a skill that is necessary to know for DD player looking to play clan battle

 

This is all I can think of right now hope you enjoy

 

Edited January 19 by Spent_AlimonyOnKitakami

[meatgrindr]

On 1/19/2024 at 12:12 PM, Spent_AlimonyOnKitakami said:

Here is some general tip for torpboat, coming from player that has played basically every DD in the game except Yueyang line,

1) Understand in every engagement what you are losing your HP for, don't lose it for no reason. Most torpboat don't have heal, or if you do (Pan EU line), you lose your HP so easily for reason like fat hull/low speed/no smoke/etc that HP conservation is not any less important, any HP you lose during the course of a game is PERM. You cannot get it back. If you lose HP, do not lose it for no reason.

2) Also understand you use your HP to do things. Tanking a radar for e.g. will never result in you not losing HP, but the aim of the game is not to save all your HP but to use it and still live. By the 10 minute mark, a Shima on 30-50% HP that contributed greatly to the death of the enemy DD on the flank is better than 85% HP Shima that still have to contend with full HP DD on their flank. The objective is to win, so you must understand you must use your HP efficiently

3) Use your gun more often. Getting the first salvo off because of conceal advantage win you more gunfight than you think. Getting a torp hit, proccing a flood, forcing a DCP then farming 2 fires on the target with guns can net you 30k damage or more, gun is your most consistent form of damage

4) Understand the details of the torp you are using. For e.g., Halland torp is easy to land due to the fact that it have Shima 12km detect but great speed, but you need to be aware you are not going to one shot targets easily. To prevent them from surviving succesful torpedo attacka nd healing, attack cruisers from broadsides to land more torp and one shot them for e.g.

Shima torp on the other hand, really just need to land one torp on cruiser/DD to cripple them. However, because of higher detect and harder to hit, you need to think more about creating a 'crossfire' with your torp, using enemy ships angling for e.g. to BB salvo to your advantage

YY torp and deepwater torp like Asashio is easily intercepted by DD because they can screen your torps for free (they cannot be hit), so torping where the enemy DD isn't or dispatching the enemy DD is actually incredibly beneficial to your game impact

5) Everyone tell you this already but when you torp and predict, you must think about what the ship you are torping is thinking. What is the ship u r torping going to do in the next 1-2 minutes? What thing/objective must that ship do to win/help win the game for their team, and what position must they go to to do that? What is the fastest route for them to do that? Etc etc etc

When you think like this you can make even unsuccesful torpedo attack beneficial, because it can slow down a push, zone out an area or make enemy team in general more hesitant about performing certain action

6) Don't always torp white line (torpedo predicted path when you lock on to a target). This kind of have to do with 5). For e.g., if at the moment you are torping someone they are in the open and are at 1/4 or 1/2 speed, 90% chance they are not going to maintain that speed in such a dangerous position, just think about it.

7) When you are torping one zone, spread out your torp dispersion cone like the graphic below to make the gaps between your torps tighter

😎 When you torping your second set using TRB (e.g. Aki to Haru), make sure the torpedo prediction calculation factors in the target seeing and responding to your first set. This usually result in your second set being closer to your first than you think, if you are torping a target you have the broadside of

9) Stay locked off your target around 80-90% of the time. Only lock-on to your target in the 3-5s required to get information about where the white line is (to now how far the torps need to be led- do not rely on this information, but as long as you know) and torp. This is because better player that use PT (2 pt skill) use the fact you are locked on to know they are being targetted by unspotted ship, and will be more cautious and evasive to your torps

10) On this note, good torpboat player also understand the value of target that is being pressured, focused, etc. Even if the damage coming towards them is minimal, these players lose concentration. Good to torp

11) Do not be afraid to rush target. See 2). Rushing target successfully can make or break a game, and is a skill that is necessary to know for DD player looking to play clan battle

 

This is all I can think of right now hope you enjoy

 

    Some great advice.  To expand on point 3- I feel an overlooked aspect of using your guns first is "dialing in " your volley.  Being first to damage, and then being first to damage accurately, is a major 1 - 2 punch advantage.  All other variables being equal of course.