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Enemy team CV 5 kills, enemy teams 2 subs 2 kills each. Our CV no kills, our 2 subs no kills. But there's no skill gap and the game is well balanced right? Your agency in the game is effectively removed by the "special" classes.  Subs and CVs have been an unmitigated disaster for this game and are massive fun killing mistakes. Everytime I leave T4 and move up the fun factor gets slashed drastically. Yet people keep spending tons of money so why would WG change anything. 

Edited by Kalishnikat
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38 minutes ago, Kalishnikat said:

Enemy team CV 5 kills, enemy teams 2 subs 2 kills each. Our CV no kills, our 2 subs no kills. But there's no skill gap and the game is well balanced right? Your agency in the game is effectively removed by the "special" classes.  Subs and CVs have been an unmitigated disaster for this game and are massive fun killing mistakes. Everytime I leave T4 and move up the fun factor gets slashed drastically. Yet people keep spending tons of money so why would WG change anything. 

This is not a problem with subs and CVs at core...

...the core problem is that the game is only CASUALLY balanced for game equity...and is ACTUALLY balanced to fill the matchmaker and ensure sufficient revenue to WG.

If you think this game will EVER be equitably balanced, you are going to be disappointed.

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But when the "special" class gets the advantage there is even less balance than usual. The high skill gaps with subs and CVs means they become game changers. Games should have EITHER subs or CVs because fending off both is not a very fun thing for anyone. 

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1 hour ago, Kalishnikat said:

Enemy team CV 5 kills, enemy teams 2 subs 2 kills each. Our CV no kills, our 2 subs no kills. But there's no skill gap and the game is well balanced right? Your agency in the game is effectively removed by the "special" classes.  Subs and CVs have been an unmitigated disaster for this game and are massive fun killing mistakes. Everytime I leave T4 and move up the fun factor gets slashed drastically. Yet people keep spending tons of money so why would WG change anything. 

 

17 minutes ago, Kalishnikat said:

But when the "special" class gets the advantage there is even less balance than usual. The high skill gaps with subs and CVs means they become game changers. Games should have EITHER subs or CVs because fending off both is not a very fun thing for anyone. 

I am curious.
Is the problem that there is an equal opportunity?
Or is the problem that there is not an equal result?

Edited by Wolfswetpaws
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The problem is that the "special" classes benefit far greater with the skill gap than the average ships. You get say 3 BB sper game, maybe you get 2 taters and a good player, but it pretty much balances out with the red team. With subs and CV those few "good" players tip the balance too far, they end up with far too much influence in the game. 

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2 minutes ago, Kalishnikat said:

The problem is that the "special" classes benefit far greater with the skill gap than the average ships. You get say 3 BB sper game, maybe you get 2 taters and a good player, but it pretty much balances out with the red team. With subs and CV those few "good" players tip the balance too far, they end up with far too much influence in the game. 

If you're so amazing, then play one of the influential ship types and kick-aft, eh?  🙂 

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I am part of the crowd that hated...HATED...subs coming into this game.  I got the T8 Japanese premium sub from a container and it pissed me off.

But, I am a bit of a completionist.  With everything but CV's maxed out to Tier 10 and a +100% XP bonus for Christmas (which later turned into +200%) I decided to grind out some sub work.

Ok, with the underwater scenery and the sub animations, I found it to be somewhat enjoyable, even though I got sunk nearly immediately.

Then I figured out how to stay surfaced and amass ridiculous amounts of spotting damage, while submerging to stay undetected when necessary.  This is a skill that is still pretty precarious for me, and some games I just get it all wrong.  But, when I get it right...2,500+ base XP is pretty common.  I would consider myself a passably competent sub player at this point...not "good" or even close to "very good", but I can land high base XP games and flat turn around an entire flank of red ships with a few good pings and/or torps, and can spot the living dickens out of them (if my team will cooperate and shoot what I spot).

The frequency of 2,500+ base XP games I get with subs even at my early learning stage far eclipses any other type of ship.

It didn't take me long to get the German, US, and Brit subs to Tier 10.

And I picked up Gato and U-4501.  Hate the game, not the playa, playa.

 

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1 hour ago, Kalishnikat said:

But when the "special" class gets the advantage there is even less balance than usual. The high skill gaps with subs and CVs means they become game changers. Games should have EITHER subs or CVs because fending off both is not a very fun thing for anyone. 

If there weren't subs or CVs in match, you will be complaining about another class....

...because WarGaming INTENTIONALLY keeps those advantage imbalances in the game as part of the monetization strategy.

Like I said, the issue isn't CV or sub implementation here. The issue is that you expect this game to be equitably balanced....which it has not ever been or ever will be.

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59 minutes ago, desmo_2 said:

I am part of the crowd that hated...HATED...subs coming into this game.  I got the T8 Japanese premium sub from a container and it pissed me off.

But, I am a bit of a completionist.  With everything but CV's maxed out to Tier 10 and a +100% XP bonus for Christmas (which later turned into +200%) I decided to grind out some sub work.

Ok, with the underwater scenery and the sub animations, I found it to be somewhat enjoyable, even though I got sunk nearly immediately.

Then I figured out how to stay surfaced and amass ridiculous amounts of spotting damage, while submerging to stay undetected when necessary.  This is a skill that is still pretty precarious for me, and some games I just get it all wrong.  But, when I get it right...2,500+ base XP is pretty common.  I would consider myself a passably competent sub player at this point...not "good" or even close to "very good", but I can land high base XP games and flat turn around an entire flank of red ships with a few good pings and/or torps, and can spot the living dickens out of them (if my team will cooperate and shoot what I spot).

The frequency of 2,500+ base XP games I get with subs even at my early learning stage far eclipses any other type of ship.

It didn't take me long to get the German, US, and Brit subs to Tier 10.

And I picked up Gato and U-4501.  Hate the game, not the playa, playa.

 

I resemble this post, minus the random play.  I find it very telling that as an admittedly mediocre sub player, I can rack up relatively decent scores.

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25 minutes ago, meatgrindr said:

I resemble this post, minus the random play.  I find it very telling that as an admittedly mediocre sub player, I can rack up relatively decent scores.

That's partially because each class earns XP at different rates...

For example, CVs earn the least XP for equivalent action of any of the classes.

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5 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

That's partially because each class earns XP at different rates...

For example, CVs earn the least XP for equivalent action of any of the classes.

I think it is because WG mistook how common some actions would be. This is just my reasoning, but I think they balanced the XP rates based on expected average players actions of completing them. So for example they assumed most average sub players would submerge and thus get limited spotting, so boosted their spotting XP. Meanwhile the average CV will do a lot of spotting, so if they get the same XP for that CVs would be overrewarded. so lessened it to try to keep the rate of XP gain similar.

However obviously this doesn't work right if the average sub spots a bunch and racks up the XP. Mind I may be completely off base with all of this. 

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Some games, even the most unicum player in the world is not going to win.  Any random distribution will eventually put you in the tail from which there is no escape.  But there will be a fair share of games where the distribution will be where you can indeed swing the victory. 

As I've noted many times before, the difference between a 50% player and and a 60% player is the 60% player can swing one game in ten from the loss column to the win column.  Just ONE game in ten!  So, there are going to be blow out losses.  There are going to be blow out wins.  Then...there is that game. THE game, where your skill swings the day and bring a win.  That game...the game where the skill brought the win is the difference between the 60% captain and the 50% captain.  

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carriers rely on the team to stay in the battle (by that i mean not hugging the boundary of the map).  if a team has a side rolled or moves from one side to the other a carrier can be dead meat.  most carriers have almost no armor or guns making them a sitting duck if the get in gun range.  to stay out of gun range means a long trip to get their planes in range of enemy ships.  If the enemy groups up they can tear through a carrier's planes.  maybe carriers are gods on pc wow but on legends there balanced better maybe, they require your team to do well and the enemy to do poorly.    i do not know anything about subs but they seem somewhat like carriers in that teamwork is key, of course they seem to have the edge over carriers in that they can be gun sponges.  jus the opinion of someone who would marry Saipan if they could lol,  feel free to keep calling carriers and sub broken.

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15 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

That's partially because each class earns XP at different rates...

Understood, and kind of my point- I feel I can get a similar score in a sub (that I am less familiar with, less a fan of) as I can with a ship I have played dozens or hundreds of times.  So the question is:  Was this done to make subs more acceptable?  Because that has been the case for me, and probably others, so I feel it has merit.  Or: It could be my own skill level- I've played this game for a while, so maybe I am fast to catch on, but have a lower than blue/purple skill ceiling.

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18 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

 

I am curious.
Is the problem that there is an equal opportunity?
Or is the problem that there is not an equal result?

  I think I've heard of this- when people get used to equal result, equal opportunity feels like a slap in the face.

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