Current PVP mains, some questions from a former club member...

[xamdam]

First up, a disclaimer (wall of text, you can scroll down to the questions in bold if you're not interested...)

I left PVP with the CV rework. I was on the SEA server and the amount of CV spam and broken implementation drove me away finally when I spawned in a Monarch I was grinding and got singularly focused by a Japanese CC in a Hakuryu (yep, remember how that was at first...) and was dead before I could even get my guns in range to a single enemy surface ship. The dude even messaged me to apologize and admitted it was a problem. Regardless, I'd had enough of that and started focussing entirely on Operations / Scenario battles and Coop to finish out my tech tree lines. I even spent some coin to get the "meta" premium ships to help me along. Also, the SEA server had a very big problem with passive play and lemming trains, coupled with the lack of any real communication due to the various languages. I moved my account "back" to NA when they made the offer.

Ops had a rework too... They nerfed the hell out of the payouts, halved the progress earned in some mission chains and then opened it up to all ships T6~8 and changed from Op of the week to random, which while not a bad thing in principle made it less enjoyable for me since they also penalized divisions at the same time. Meaning, if you created a div to select the Op you want to play, you earned less... For a long time we only had a few Ops available, they finally brought most of them back except Dynamo / Dunkirk but still, very little has been done to improve them. If anything, they've made them worse.

Asymmetric Battles I enjoy. But that's only a temp mode and I'm betting it will be nerfed as well the next time it comes back.

I'm also going on 60 trips around the sun. My "competitive" drive has decreased and I just want to enjoy my investment. I still like to win though... which is part of the reason I've stayed away from PVP. While I feel I'm a semi above average player in general, I also don't want to deal with the hate and rage I often see in streams, not to mention the blowout games. And then, there's that submarine issue... 



So... after that background story, here's what I'm considering. Since I still have until around mid-May left on my premium time, have every surface ship line completed and a bunch of captains just sitting around and am getting bored with limiting my play time to just T6-8 Ops, I thought about sampling random PVP and maybe some ranked again. That said, I want to focus it to a few ships that I feel I can be decent in.

Question 1: What tier (T6 or above) do you feel is least impacted by CV/Submarines in PVP randoms (please don't say T1~5...)?

Question 2: What surface ships do you feel do best at that tier (regardless of class, Nation, Tech Tree / Premium)?

While I realize I'm still going to have to deal with all the issues I mentioned above (CV/Subs/Blowouts), I'd like some advice on how to ease the pain in the "current meta"... While I don't necessarily dislike low tier gameplay now and then, I prefer tier 6 or above as that's where most of my ships are. I plan on dedicating some time working on a few ships at first and see how it goes. I'll put 21pt captains on them and use signals, if need be. Credit earning isn't an issue, I have plenty.

I would be grateful for any suggestions.

[Justin_Simpleton]

I would say tier 7 is the best to jump back into PvP since you won't have to face the tier X CVs and subs.  Lately, my tier VIII ships keep getting thrown into tier X battles most of the time so, that tier is very unpleasant.  It seems everybody is playing CVs this week and double CVs are quite common so, you just have to put up with that for awhile. 

[BOBTHEBALL]

22 minutes ago, xamdam said:

Question 1: What tier (T6 or above) do you feel is least impacted by CV/Submarines in PVP randoms (please don't say T1~5...)?

As someone who mostly players tier 6 and above. I feel as though it's definitely higher tiers such as 10 or 11. The reason as to why is because usually they have the agility to actually be able to dodge the CV strikes if you maneuver well. Regarding subs the higher tier the better as you gain access to the longer range ASW planes. Also the higher tier you go the heftier the punch of your guns are. You can quite easily chunk a CV for massive damage with most cruisers and basically all BBs if aimed correctly, however at lower tiers the cruiser guns aren't as punchy and BBs are also not as accurate.

25 minutes ago, xamdam said:

Question 2: What surface ships do you feel do best at that tier (regardless of class, Nation, Tech Tree / Premium)?

This is a tough one but I'd say most BBs are quite ok to choose from. Besides ones with weak horizontal armor, German ones. This is because they're easy food for AP bombers from Hak and MvR. Also German BBs have quite bad torpedo protection so that's another reason to not play them. If I had to choose some BBs to play I'd go with Montana, Yamato, Bourgogne and Vincent,

Regarding cruisers, I'd say if you want to suffer the least from CVs you can try and play some light cruisers. However they do struggle immensely so I'd say stick to the heavy cruisers. Some CAs you could play would be; Moskva, Petropavlovsk, Alexander Nevsky, Henri IV and Yoshino.

Now regarding DDs, it's quite tough because they suffer the most from CVs and SS. If I were you I'd just avoid them, however if you wanted to play some the good choices would be Daring, Kleber and Smaland.

I hope this provides any little inkling of help, if you have anymore questions please feel free to ask I'm here to help!

- Boob 

[xamdam]

1 hour ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

Regarding cruisers, I'd say if you want to suffer the least from CVs you can try and play some light cruisers. However they do struggle immensely so I'd say stick to the heavy cruisers. Some CAs you could play would be; Moskva, Petropavlovsk, Alexander Nevsky, Henri IV and Yoshino.

Now regarding DDs, it's quite tough because they suffer the most from CVs and SS. If I were you I'd just avoid them, however if you wanted to play some the good choices would be Daring, Kleber and Smaland.

- Boob 

Thx "Boob" (chuckles).

I have all of the ships you've listed except Bourgogne and Smaland. Of the BBs, I'm most comfortable in Yamato and have the legendary gun mod (and permanent economic boost). Montana, I want to love but find frustrating. I don't think I've even bothered to play my St Vincent.
Henri, I never gelled with and since they messed with its acceleration (at least the last time I played it) I found it even more difficult.

How is Des Moines these days? Or does it get pummeled by overmatch and CVs while trying to stay nose in by a rock for cap support / radar? Is it better played open water and back a bit now? I mention Des Moines mainly because my Halsey is trained for it and I have lots of PVE experience lately in Salem (played it a lot in AB and it's one of the few T10 ships I ever take to Coop anymore) so I'm quite familiar with its gunnery and armor (against surface ships...).

My Petro and Nevsky both have carry over economic boosts on them since I had bought perma camos before the rework. That said, I haven't played them lately except for a few AB in Petro. My main experience with it was pre-nerf when it sat super low in the water. Moskva, I like but I'd rather not be perma spotted if possible and I think I'd be overly cautious about my sides and unable to maneuver. I'm very rusty on Nevsky but I do like DPM ships and it's almost a CA in terms of shell caliber / hitting power. That's probably one I'd move on to later if I stick with it.

And yes, I think I'll hold off on DDs... I like them but don't like the team pressure dumped on them to spot and cap even when it's impossible / suicidal due to plane spotting, radars and other circumstances. They always get blamed regardless...
 

Edited January 13 by xamdam

[xamdam]

1 hour ago, Justin_Simpleton said:

I would say tier 7 is the best to jump back into PvP since you won't have to face the tier X CVs and subs.  Lately, my tier VIII ships keep getting thrown into tier X battles most of the time so, that tier is very unpleasant.  It seems everybody is playing CVs this week and double CVs are quite common so, you just have to put up with that for awhile. 

I suppose I could just spam my Belfast... But I hear it's not as god-tier as it used to be unless working in a div. It used to feel dirty. 😄

I should also mention that I'm looking at doing this solo, as opposed to working in a div, for now. There are a few players in my clan I can div with at times but until I get a feel for it again, I'd rather go solo.

[BOBTHEBALL]

13 minutes ago, xamdam said:

How is Des Moines these days? Or does it get pummeled by overmatch and CVs while trying to stay nose in by a rock for cap support / radar? Is it better played open water and back a bit now? I mention Des Moines mainly because my Halsey is trained for it and I have lots of PVE experience lately in Salem (played it a lot in AB and it's one of the few T10 ships I ever take to Coop anymore) so I'm quite familiar with its gunnery and armor (against surface ships...).

She's still great, requires lots of positional knowledge however so I wouldn't start with it.

27 minutes ago, xamdam said:

My Petro and Nevsky both have carry over economic boosts on them since I had bought perma camos before the rework. That said, I haven't played them lately except for a few AB in Petro. My main experience with it was pre-nerf when it sat super low in the water. Moskva, I like but I'd rather not be perma spotted if possible and I think I'd be overly cautious about my sides and unable to maneuver. I'm very rusty on Nevsky but I do like DPM ships and it's almost a CA in terms of shell caliber / hitting power. That's probably one I'd move on to later if I stick with it.

Being honest Moskva is without a doubt one of the best tier 10 cruisers to win a match with. If you want to try win more then play her because her kit and utility is amazing.

28 minutes ago, xamdam said:

And yes, I think I'll hold off on DDs... I like them but don't like the team pressure dumped on them to spot and cap even when it's impossible / suicidal due to plane spotting, radars and other circumstances. They always get blamed regardless...

Great idea, there's no problem not playing a class at all. However don't feel like you can never try them out. Maybe try Daring a couple times to see how you feel with her.

[xamdam]

47 minutes ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

She's still great, requires lots of positional knowledge however so I wouldn't start with it.

Being honest Moskva is without a doubt one of the best tier 10 cruisers to win a match with. If you want to try win more then play her because her kit and utility is amazing.

Great idea, there's no problem not playing a class at all. However don't feel like you can never try them out. Maybe try Daring a couple times to see how you feel with her.

I see, thanks.

Do you have a recommended build for Moskva and and a 21pt Kuznetsov for PVP randoms? Or, Ovenchicken / Znamensky if they bring something better for CA (I haven't paid attention). Upgrades, signals, etc?

Also, general tips on PVP playstyle / map positioning with it (loaded question as there are so many possibilites... just general do's and dont's). 

I'll kit it out and give it a go after a few training room runs for feel... I just did that with my Des Moines and had expected results, although a lot of "WTH" vertical dispersion rng...

Edited January 13 by xamdam

[BOBTHEBALL]

2 minutes ago, xamdam said:

Do you have a recommended build for Moskva and and a 21pt Kuznetsov for PVP randoms? Or, Ovenchicken / Znamensky if they bring something better for CA (I haven't paid attention). Upgrades, signals, etc?

This build works on Moskva, Petro and Nevsky. However for Petropavlovsk run the legendary mod or reload mod and if you don't have Moskva legendary mod (One of the best mods in-game) then run range or reload whatever makes you most comfortable.

 

8 minutes ago, xamdam said:

Also, general tips on PVP playstyle / map positioning with it (loaded question as there are so many possibilites... just general do's and dont's). 

I guess just always be on the lookout, don't show broadside, make stupid decisions. Lost HP early and make bad trades. Know what ships you can absolutely bend over and dominate and the other ones that bend you over.

[Verytis]

3 hours ago, xamdam said:

Question 1: What tier (T6 or above) do you feel is least impacted by CV/Submarines in PVP randoms (please don't say T1~5...)?

Two answers:

• T6 CVs tend to be lower output, but AA is also much weaker. Average player skill is also lower if that's your thing.
• T10 CVs tend to be more deadly, but ships with good AA and/or manoeuvrability will often discourage them unless you're overextending or your team fed themselves to the enemy.

3 hours ago, xamdam said:

Question 2: What surface ships do you feel do best at that tier (regardless of class, Nation, Tech Tree / Premium)?

All classes feel the effects of CV differently, but cruisers are probably best with a mix of survivability and manoeuvrability.

• BBs are sluggish and tend to be vulnerable when isolated.
• DDs operating on the front can potentially deal with constant spotting

 

 

Edited January 13 by Verytis
typo

[Verytis]

10 minutes ago, xamdam said:

Also, general tips on PVP playstyle / map positioning with it (loaded question as there are so many possibilites... just general do's and dont's). 

Russian CAs tend to be easy to play.

• Just find a comfortable rock where you can stick your nose out and bow-tank while shooting like a small BB.
• But make sure you have ways of disengaging. Eg. Reversing around your island into cover, or just being far enough to go dark.
• Ideally your position also allows you to turn around and retreat without exposure.
• Otherwise you can also play it like a typical CA throwing shells from range. Just watch your sides, because Moskva's rear angles are rough.

In CV matches, take a little more care as it is part of their job to dig out entrenched targets like you.

• Have other friendlies nearby who can support with AA.
• Be extra cautious if their CV is focusing on your flank.
• Be more prepared to disengage because the enemy can smell blood.
• May have to play like a regular CA more often.

Varies a lot based on the specific CV. Eg. German AP rockets are brutal without friendly cover.

[xamdam]

14 minutes ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

This build works on Moskva, Petro and Nevsky. However for Petropavlovsk run the legendary mod or reload mod and if you don't have Moskva legendary mod (One of the best mods in-game) then run range or reload whatever makes you most comfortable.

 

I guess just always be on the lookout, don't show broadside, make stupid decisions. Lost HP early and make bad trades. Know what ships you can absolutely bend over and dominate and the other ones that bend you over.

Good info, thanks. Since Kuznetsov is currently assigned to my Kremlin (which I never play now) I'll move him to Petro for now since I'll be able to use him on both ships. I'll try Nevsky later. 

The Moskva legendary mod, this one or are you talking about a removed legacy one?

[xamdam]

7 minutes ago, Verytis said:

Russian CAs tend to be easy to play.

• Just find a comfortable rock where you can stick your nose out and bow-tank while shooting like a small BB.
• But make sure you have ways of disengaging. Eg. Reversing around your island into cover, or just being far enough to go dark.
• Ideally your position also allows you to turn around and retreat without exposure.
• Otherwise you can also play it like a typical CA throwing shells from range. Just watch your sides, because Moskva's rear angles are rough.

In CV matches, take a little more care as it is part of their job to dig out entrenched targets like you.

• Have other friendlies nearby who can support with AA.
• Be extra cautious if their CV is focusing on your flank.
• Be more prepared to disengage because the enemy can smell blood.
• May have to play like a regular CA more often.

Varies a lot based on the specific CV. Eg. German AP rockets are brutal without friendly cover.

Good advice, thx!

[BOBTHEBALL]

1 minute ago, xamdam said:

Good info, thanks. Since Kuznetsov is currently assigned to my Kremlin (which I never play now) I'll move him to Petro for now since I'll be able to use him on both ships. I'll try Nevsky later. 

The Moskva legendary mod, this one or are you talking about a removed legacy one?

That is the one!

[Humility925]

There is couple some of ship are specialist eat CV for breakfast, CV isn't overpower, just one need knowledge and strategy. I think DD with trop is still deadly more than CV, due they able to hide very well, while same time torp away, much better than subs ever tried to. 

When playing as BB, CA, DD, and Subs, I had rarely got attacked by CV as I knew how to counter CV's plane with heavy AA, and knew what best place and along with allied with stronger effect of AA is why CV would avoid me most of time, I get more attacked by BB, CA, DD than CV Plane do. 

Try play CV to understand strength and weakness, there is time couple of battle do not had CV, even I had a ship that specialist AA, I am more worried about sneaking DD with trop more than CV, at least that what my experience, when I played as BB, CA, DD, My ship got sinked by in order best to least, DD with Trop, CA with firebase, BB, then CV's plane, then last Subs with torp. DD is too painful to deal with it, due it's more common, difficult track them down due sneaking, and destroy them before they launch other torp quicker. CV is so easy to get destroy, CV's body, health point and armor can be very quicker sink in few second much more faster than DD's health point and speed! 

Only thing I'm worried about CV is when I playing as CV when Red team CV is cunning, smart player, other than that, You don't worry much about CV once you knew and understand how to deal with CV, making CV think think twice when they see your ship and captain stats had high number of AA, and playing along with your team closer together, sometime one could use island against CV's Plane, some plane don't attack very well over island and Smoke Screen would help as well, but again, it's depend on CV's type of plane, some plane can attack over island like Drop bomb, but attack or rocket plane don't do well, but Torp plane would go around and attack your ship, or torp plane can drive anyone out of smoke screen, although Rocket Plane is not useful in in general due it's hard to use over lsland, and little damage, but it's cause of fire based, when red team can't use repair, that is, but not guaranteed. 

When see torp plane, it's sometime best to keep turning your ship or toward to the torp plane, even, that would gave CV's player harder time. 

So when playing as BB, or CA, or DD, even with high stats AA, along with team, work together, not much worried, Sometime there is no CV in battle more often than CV in ranked battles so far ( I was playing BB number of time in Ranked Battle, very few CV, most of time no CV.)

 

[BOBTHEBALL]

Just now, Humility925 said:

CV isn't overpowe

No you're wrong, CV is overpowered...

[xamdam]

Whoops, well I'll assign Kuz to my Nevsky instead since that's the exact build I already have for Petro minus the Survivability Expert... That Capt is still at 19pts so I won't need to retrain, just grind out the extra 3pts or ECXP them later... 

[Humility925]

I forgot to said, that, when CV in your battle, be sure don't go solo, CV always seek one who are solo even strong AA, but smart CV would seek largest health point, slow, weak AA and alone, yes alone, but stay together with team, Smart CV can't do anything but spot and search for alone ship to attack more often than not. 

[xamdam]

12 minutes ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

That is the one!

Finally, signals for Moskva? Just finished setting up the build. What would you normally run? All the help is very appreciated. I'll focus with this for now, try Petro and Nevsky later.

[Humility925]

16 minutes ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

No you're wrong, CV is overpowered...

I think Most CV are balanced, but there is few type of CV may be little bit overpower like Malta, and few CV is very weak, sure as saipan or indomitable (it's horrible and tension  to play that CV! Midway isn't too bad, I think balanced. Most CV are balanced, you can look at WOWS stats and number AVg. Damage similar to BB's avg. damage. 

Yet CA, DD, BB can make more credit easy much more than CV. Sub had a worse one, although, Sub had easier with credit service more than CV do at end of battle post. CV had to do more work to earn credit than DD, CA and BB do and same time avoid losing credit at end of battle. 

I meant that even bad player, can still making credit from DD, CA, and BB but CV, bad player losing lot of credit. 

Edited January 13 by Humility925

[BOBTHEBALL]

7 minutes ago, xamdam said:

Finally, signals for Moskva? Just finished setting up the build. What would you normally run? All the help is very appreciated. I'll focus with this for now, try Petro and Nevsky later.

Being honest unless it's ranked I don't run signals however I can suggest.
 

[BOBTHEBALL]

7 hours ago, Humility925 said:

I think Most CV are balanced

Most CV are OP with some being extremely OP and some being just slightly OP. 

[xamdam]

3 games in. Two wins, one loss (first battle was a blowout... team rushed caps and then just melted). Not much damage in the first two. But I want to think I contributed with my radar and cap defence. 1.7mil tanked in the first battle, Close to a million in the second but I had a "unicum" Stalingrad and a Petro as my opposites trying to defend B cap which forced me to island hug. My final radar got two of their DDs killed so I call it a win-win, even if the damage wasn't there.

Third battle though, Hotspot C cap (the side with all the islands in the center of the cap). I saw a Montana and Alaska going wide to flank via our CV's spotting early on. The rest of my spawn headed into the cap but I turned to the flank and used the island to protect my cit. Sure enough, I was spotted quickly by a Gearing. It was part of a 3 man div including the Montana and a Defence plus the Alaska. Got fires on the Montana and forced him to turn back. Slowed the Alaska and Defence's progress allowing my team to cap and keeping the div from making their flanking approach to C. The Gearing kept sending torps my way and trying to bait me out, and his div mates kept trying to keep me on fire but I survived, and lit the DD each time my radar came up finally killing him, the Alaska and getting a bit of damage on the defence. Sadly, one last torp spread from the Gearing finished me off. 1.9mil tanked, 75k damage, 90k spotting damage and 2 kills. The Gearing and Defence were long time players with well over 10K random battles and 58% and 63% WRs respectively. The Montana (all same clan) was around 8K and 52%, closer to me.

I'm happy to think little old rusty solo me spoiled their party. I had help from my team in C but without my radars and keeping the div busy they may have been flanked and overrun. 

Tiny sample, I know but so far I've been able to avoid CV or sub focus and at least be useful. The blowout was a let down at first though but I could see it coming the way my team was over aggressive from the start. Most of the damage I managed to get in was on the enemy Dalarna that was torping the crap out of everyone. He topped their teams XP.

Now, as soon as I post this, I'll start making stupid mistakes and get all the bad RNG / MM and CV / Sub focus I dread. But so far, not a terrible start. Thanks all for the tips!

Once I get settled in a bit I'll start working with some other ships. But I think focusing one one right now was the right choice.

[BOBTHEBALL]

15 minutes ago, xamdam said:

3 games in. Two wins, one loss (first battle was a blowout... team rushed caps and then just melted). Not much damage in the first two. But I want to think I contributed with my radar and cap defence. 1.7mil tanked in the first battle, Close to a million in the second but I had a "unicum" Stalingrad and a Petro as my opposites trying to defend B cap which forced me to island hug. My final radar got two of their DDs killed so I call it a win-win, even if the damage wasn't there.

Third battle though, Hotspot C cap (the side with all the islands in the center of the cap). I saw a Montana and Alaska going wide to flank via our CV's spotting early on. The rest of my spawn headed into the cap but I turned to the flank and used the island to protect my cit. Sure enough, I was spotted quickly by a Gearing. It was part of a 3 man div including the Montana and a Defence plus the Alaska. Got fires on the Montana and forced him to turn back. Slowed the Alaska and Defence's progress allowing my team to cap and keeping the div from making their flanking approach to C. The Gearing kept sending torps my way and trying to bait me out, and his div mates kept trying to keep me on fire but I survived, and lit the DD each time my radar came up finally killing him, the Alaska and getting a bit of damage on the defence. Sadly, one last torp spread from the Gearing finished me off. 1.9mil tanked, 75k damage, 90k spotting damage and 2 kills. The Gearing and Defence were long time players with well over 10K random battles and 58% and 63% WRs respectively. The Montana (all same clan) was around 8K and 52%, closer to me.

I'm happy to think little old rusty solo me spoiled their party. I had help from my team in C but without my radars and keeping the div busy they may have been flanked and overrun. 

Tiny sample, I know but so far I've been able to avoid CV or sub focus and at least be useful. The blowout was a let down at first though but I could see it coming the way my team was over aggressive from the start. Most of the damage I managed to get in was on the enemy Dalarna that was torping the crap out of everyone. He topped their teams XP.

Now, as soon as I post this, I'll start making stupid mistakes and get all the bad RNG / MM and CV / Sub focus I dread. But so far, not a terrible start. Thanks all for the tips!

Once I get settled in a bit I'll start working with some other ships. But I think focusing one one right now was the right choice.

Hey that's really good work for someone who hasn't played random battles for awhile, Genuinely keep it up! I believe in you, we all believe in you and I bet you'll be able to improve massively really quickly.

[xamdam]

19 minutes ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

Hey that's really good work for someone who hasn't played random battles for awhile, Genuinely keep it up! I believe in you, we all believe in you and I bet you'll be able to improve massively really quickly.

Thanks. Round 4, another blowout but one of only two on our team to break 1k XP and 3.2 million tanked... Had a really sarcastic sub on the other team spewing garbage in the chat but with "Sarcastic" in his player name, I guess that's to be expected. lol

If anything, I'm doing okay in the tanking department. Need to up my damage though, only 75k that round.

[BOBTHEBALL]

2 minutes ago, xamdam said:

Thanks. Round 4, another blowout but one of only two on our team to break 1k XP and 3.2 million tanked... Had a really sarcastic sub on the other team spewing garbage in the chat but with "Sarcastic" in his player name, I guess that's to be expected. lol

If anything, I'm doing okay in the tanking department. Need to up my damage though, only 75k that round.

Kills > damage > tanking imho but nice work!