Is the Scharnhorst '43 the best brawler in the game at its tier?

[Snargfargle]

I played the Sharnhorst '43 a bit in Ranked and liked it. However, I didn't quite realize its potential until I saw Jingles latest video about it.  I looked around my commanders reserve and realized that I had Lutjens. I guess I got him from an event at one time and didn't realize it. Lutjens has the ability to decrease secondary battery reload time by 15% after 100 secondary battery hits. 100 secondary battery hits is not hard to get at all with a brawler. While the secondary range of the Scharnhorst '43 is only reasonably good at 9.5 km and the torpedoes are short range at 6 km, close-in brawls are common in low-to-mid-tier battles. With IFHE, the German secondaries have 32 mm pen for the 105s and 47 mm pen for the 150s, more than enough to wreak havoc on similar-tier BBs and CA/CLs.

[BOBTHEBALL]

1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

I played the Sharnhorst '43 a bit in Ranked and liked it. However, I didn't quite realize its potential until I saw Jingles latest video about it.  I looked around my commanders reserve and realized that I had Lutjens. I guess I got him from an event at one time and didn't realize it. Lutjens has the ability to decrease secondary battery reload time by 15% after 100 secondary battery hits. 100 secondary battery hits is not hard to get at all with a brawler. While the secondary range of the Scharnhorst '43 is only reasonably good at 9.5 km and the torpedoes are short range at 6 km, close-in brawls are common in low-to-mid-tier battles. With IFHE, the German secondaries have 32 mm pen for the 105s and 47 mm pen for the 150s, more than enough to wreak havoc on similar-tier BBs and CA/CLs.

After some research I've come to a conclusion. No she isn't the best brawler in the game at it's tier. To be honest she's not the best brawler at her tier. that goes to Gneisenau. 

Things Gneisenau has over Scharnhorst 43
-health

-speed without heal

-overmatch

-penetration

-secondary dpm and secondary hitting dpm

-secondaries that all pen 32mm base

-AA range (lol)

Things Scharn 43 has over Gneisenau
-torpedo DPM

speed advantage with boost up

As you can see she's not really the best brawler at her tier, let alone in the entire game. Sure she's fun and is a good free prem WG gave us, however there are better picks.

- Boob

 

[Humility925]

It's depend on type of battle, if one vs one brawler mission type depend, offer BB with very good secondary gun, and torpedo together along with great speed and turning had better chance winning when one doing smart move.

Now if 4 vs 4, that is whole other story, some ship might very good at 1 vs 1, but not so great 4 vs 4 or 12 vs 12. although. 

 

What I try to said, there is some ship might good at certain battle type and not so great at other battle types. 

Edited January 13 by Humility925

[Snargfargle]

Hmm... Well, I dusted off the ole Gneisenot and installed Lutjens as the commander. It's main battery reloads faster and hits harder but is terribly inaccurate. I'd say that it's OK but I think the Sharnhorst '43 is maybe a bit better for me. It's hard to say as I found myself brawling versus two cruisers, two battleships, and a sub this match and didn't get very close to any of them so it probably wasn't a fair comparison.

[BOBTHEBALL]

10 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

Hmm... Well, I dusted off the ole Gneisenot and installed Lutjens as the commander. It's main battery reloads faster and hits harder but is terribly inaccurate. I'd say that it's OK but I think the Sharnhorst '43 is maybe a bit better for me. It's hard to say as I found myself brawling versus two cruisers, two battleships, and a sub this match and didn't get very close to any of them so it probably wasn't a fair comparison.

Your best bet might be to take it into ranked the next time it's tier 7. Also maybe try some OPs however that also wouldn't be the best way to test because of how inconsistent the enemy ships are.

[Itwastuesday]

I'd rather take Heinrich, in order to have a real main battery.

[MrWastee]

it's borderline op in comparison to the org one imo. dat lil less range and longer mb reload is a joke in comparison for what it gets for. lütjens not is mandatory on a note, i'd rather run him on the 128mm sec bb's ^^... in the end one gets more out of him on those, as ifhe not is needed and many higher tier german prem bb's got the 128's.

played a lot around with the old one to find the sweet spot build for me. ended up on a hybrid sec-build (mb module instead of sec one, sec-captn) for best results.... '43 not needs this, thx to the ability to have her speed boost up almost all match and the overall combo.

in the end it sadly renders the org one useless imo, pure gimmicked-up power creep.... for everyone lol ...

is it the best brawler tier for tier? hmm.... no idea. for me for sure it's the best brawler on t7, no doubt. thx to a gimmick-set most higher tier bb's do dream of...

 

looking at my personal numbers: yep... there's some slight indication of a tendency i guess, yet off far from really comparable numbers though ^^

 

*on a nther note, from kind of a german brawler main: one may rather take the reload than the calibre into account the closer one gets ... bigger guns=less chances in the same time to actually hit'n score, in light of weegee's rng. the closer one gets the more of a difference this can make.

Edited January 13 by MrWastee

[YouSatInGum]

Just so you know WV 44 and renown 44 (or whatever number it is) both have significantly higher hitting DPM numbers for their seconds.  WV44 is actually up there with some T9 and T10 secondary BBs....plus locked in at T7 you can take IFHE and pen lots of hull parts of other BBs.

I also found Renowns seconds to be nutty especially in fires and with mid tier maps the short range wasn't an issue.  Also both have short cool down heals.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

My first and only game in Scharny 43. Did use my Legendary captain Lutjens, thats usually is sitting in Schlieffen so he has a full secondary build (3 skills in the secondary three, even the IFHE skill?) and also the secondary module and also the flag. I think it gave me 9.7 km secondary's or something? Fun game, especially with that speed boost and torps.

 

 

Edited January 13 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube

[MrWastee]

1 hour ago, YouSatInGum said:

Just so you know WV 44 and renown 44 (or whatever number it is) both have significantly higher hitting DPM numbers for their seconds.  WV44 is actually up there with some T9 and T10 secondary BBs....plus locked in at T7 you can take IFHE and pen lots of hull parts of other BBs.

I also found Renowns seconds to be nutty especially in fires and with mid tier maps the short range wasn't an issue.  Also both have short cool down heals.

well, noice.... gotta add the fact that wv'44 is a colorado though. even ducklings do outrun her ^^... also, what's the possible range on those secs, idkr?... i may give it a shot

Edited January 13 by MrWastee

[Kruzenstern]

Mind you, I am only playing PvE anymore (Operations and Asymmetrics), but in Operations Scharnhorst even with Lütjens is indeed outperformed by West Virigina '44. The WeeVee's secondaries (with IFHE, this is mandatory in PvE as a lot of enemies have huge 25mm armor sections that you can't pen without IFHE) more than make up their lack of number by accuracy, and having main guns with 28mm overmatch helps a lot against tier8 enemies with those 27mm armor sections. And subjectively it feels more tanky as well. The only real downside is speed, but even in Hermes I can keep up if I keep on steaming at full most of the time (using that captain skill that gives extra speed when undetected and the speed flag of course) and watch where I am going (crashing into an island is a real showstopper). Getting the secs in range is not a huge problem. And while its top speed is low, it accelerates really fast (up to like 18 kts) and reacts to the rudder reasonably well, so not all is bad with its manoverability.

In the dearly departed asymmetric battles, the WVs advantage was even more pronounced, imho it punched way above its weight class, it outperformed most tier8 and tier9 ships for me, which of course was in no small part due being tier7 and only getting tier6 or lower enemies. Still, driving WV44 in asymmetrics was one of the most fun and engaging experiences I had in this game in the last 3 years.

And last but not least for me, I love its looks. Especially clad in the black camo. One of the first pictures in a book that hooked me up with warships as a child back in the 80ies was this one of the Tennessee:

(image from http://blueprintbox.com/details.php?image_id=41640&sessionid=bjt21137dkueav6fch6pqaqbd4)

While the few guys around me also interested in ships were doting on Bismarck (I am from Germany), I was very quickly into US and Japanese BBs (I also have a fetish for pagodas). And this one became the very essence of a battleship for me, this almost symmetrical, mighty, if slighty fat, look, made even cooler by being blackish. And I can now reproduce it in wows, which is great. Of course, I did it with California, but that ship is too much of a turd to play for me. WV44 made me a really happy camper by being a very good (actually kinda OP) ship in the game modes I like.

1 hour ago, MrWastee said:

well, noice.... gotta add the fact that wv'44 is a colorado though. even ducklings do outrun her ^^... also, what's the possible range on those secs, idkr?... i may give it a shot

Alas, the range on the secondaries is only 9.5km, which, while workable in PvE, might make it much less usable in PvP.

Edited January 13 by Kruzenstern

[Crokodone]

1 hour ago, Kruzenstern said:

with California, but that ship is too much of a turd to play for me.

May I suggest:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg85X7r94jQ&pp=ygUPeXVybyBjYWxpZm9ybmlh

[Sailor_Moon]

3 hours ago, Crokodone said:

May I suggest:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg85X7r94jQ&pp=ygUPeXVybyBjYWxpZm9ybmlh

Ahhhh yes.....*THAT* video. An excellent choice. I swear that video should be required viewing for Wargaming CMs. It really illustrates all the issues of that poor ship perfectly. 

[Sailor_Moon]

5 hours ago, Kruzenstern said:

And last but not least for me, I love its looks. Especially clad in the black camo. One of the first pictures in a book that hooked me up with warships as a child back in the 80ies was this one of the Tennessee:

That is gorgeous. And it galvanizes me to fight for California's right to buffs!!! Like a Pokemon shiny, if you keep at it, it WILL appear! Same with Cali buffs!

^{It sure is taking a long time though....for both the Cali buffs and the shiny Buneary....😔}

Edited January 13 by Sailor_Moon

[MysticalWar]

I did ok with it got 3 sunk too.

[mashed68]

Scharny might be the best overall because of the armor and torps, but I love my Heinrich. Geneisenau or however you spell it is just a trash ship.  WV44 might be the best, but I've never tried her. 

[Kruzenstern]

4 hours ago, Crokodone said:

May I suggest:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg85X7r94jQ&pp=ygUPeXVybyBjYWxpZm9ybmlh

Hah, thanks for that, I love Yuros videos, hadn't seen that one yet.

[Tpaktop2_1 NA]

My first play with the '43, and I never got a chance to use the torps. I like this ship. 

[YouSatInGum]

8 hours ago, MrWastee said:

well, noice.... gotta add the fact that wv'44 is a colorado though. even ducklings do outrun her ^^... also, what's the possible range on those secs, idkr?... i may give it a shot

Max range is 9.5.... same as Sharny.  Yeah, it's a slug, but it works on mid-tier maps and the engagement ranges can close fast.  It's garbage in random and when higher tiers are allowed but in the ranked environment....its good.  Renown is ,however, really is OP in T7 ranked... best at tier imho.  Nutty seconds, usable main guns, FAST, torps, fast heal, hydro, decent conceal, boost.  Just look at the Fires per min on secondaries....

 

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

17 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

I played the Sharnhorst '43 a bit in Ranked and liked it. However, I didn't quite realize its potential until I saw Jingles latest video about it.  I looked around my commanders reserve and realized that I had Lutjens. I guess I got him from an event at one time and didn't realize it. Lutjens has the ability to decrease secondary battery reload time by 15% after 100 secondary battery hits. 100 secondary battery hits is not hard to get at all with a brawler. While the secondary range of the Scharnhorst '43 is only reasonably good at 9.5 km and the torpedoes are short range at 6 km, close-in brawls are common in low-to-mid-tier battles. With IFHE, the German secondaries have 32 mm pen for the 105s and 47 mm pen for the 150s, more than enough to wreak havoc on similar-tier BBs and CA/CLs.

My Ranked with her...

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Kynami]

1 hour ago, mashed68 said:

Geneisenau or however you spell it is just a trash ship.

Its actually a pretty good ship. Its just it takes a fairly high point commander to make it shine. And for many players on their first run through that line they do not have anywhere near the proper level of commander to realize its actual potential. Or for that matter the game sense and knowledge of when its actually the correct time to push with it. Much like the memes about the Torpitz/Derpitz putting somebody without the right knowledge and captain in the hot seat results in poor performance.

[asalonen]

On 1/13/2024 at 5:17 AM, BOBTHEBALL said:

Things Scharn 43 has over Gneisenau
-torpedo DPM
-speed advantage with boost up

There are more:

• Much faster turret traverse, and this should not be underestimated in a brawling battleship.
• While Scharnhorst '43 loses in secondary penetration, it has a massive advantage in secondary fire chance. It sets fires at an amazing rate.
• The speed boost is insanely strong being +15 %, pushing you to above 36 knots. With the upgrade in slot 2 it lasts almost 4 minutes. The point here being that when you need the speed you'll have it.

For me, everything about the '43 makes it absolutely amazing when you're lucky enough to be top tier. It has amazing speed and fire power. Personally, it's an easy pick over vanilla Scharnhorst and also over Gneisenau.

In the end, I think it's a similar case to Brandenburg vs. Tirpitz. In a tier 8 match Brandenburg is superior, but in a tier 10 match you wish you had taken a Tirpitz instead.

[BOBTHEBALL]

15 hours ago, asalonen said:

There are more:

• Much faster turret traverse, and this should not be underestimated in a brawling battleship.

Failure to recognize the overmatch advantage is quite saddening. Gneisenau is just the better ship no doubt about it. Dealing with same tier BBs is easier because you can actually deal damage to them. When the time comes to rush in she is also extremely capable. War Gaming gave us a great ship for free which is great, however there's no need to overstate it's power. It's great yes but is it the best at its tier? No it isn't, is it the best in-game? No 100% not. 
And regarding Brandenburg vs Tripitz, I prefer my main guns to actually have some punching power so Tirpitz for me 100% of the time.

[Snargfargle]

I took out the Gneisenau in a brawl and brawled a Scharnhorst '43, 1v1. I won, barely. Flooding took me out but it was already sunk so we won. I've won ten Brawls today with the Scharnhorst '43 though as well. The games only take a couple of minutes. You spend more time in the queue than playing. Kind of like scuba diving. A half hour to prep and don equipment, dive for thirty minutes, then clean the salt off of your equipment for another half hour.

Edited January 16 by Snargfargle

[asalonen]

16 hours ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

And regarding Brandenburg vs Tripitz, I prefer my main guns to actually have some punching power so Tirpitz for me 100% of the time.

I have played both of them extensively. Tirpitz is clearly better in a tier 10 match since you can sit back and stay relevant due to the better punch of the main battery.

But in a tier 9 or 8 match, I find that Brandenburg simply performs better. It is faster and it has very noticeably stronger secondaries. And for me, just by going by the numbers, Brandenburg does outperform Tirpitz overall:

With Scharnhorst '43 my experience is so far much more limited, so I don't have the sample size to make a reasonable argument by the numbers. But my initial gut feeling is that it is a similar case, and I expect it to perform very well in the long run.

Edited January 16 by asalonen