What do you mean "Meh Bote?"

[Snargfargle]

Re-read LWM's article on the Massachusetts. She called it a "Meh Bote." "I'd give Massachusetts a pass here." -- LWM. Sacrilege, I say!  Meh!? How dast you disparage my Massy! 😜

https://www.mediafire.com/file/x1b9r3rxn8poffh/20240107_090358_PASB518-Massachusetts_41_Conquest.wowsreplay/file

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

When did LWM write the article?

Pretty sure major things have changed with regards to the meta and even a big selling point of the Massa...the secondaries...

[Snargfargle]

14 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

When did LWM write the article?

Pretty sure major things have changed with regards to the meta and even a big selling point of the Massa...the secondaries...

Yeah, this is sort of a joke thread. Her article came out when the Massy was first released. Things have improved for the ship considerably since then.

[Nevermore135]

25 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

Things have improved for the ship considerably since then.

Not really? The American 127mm-armed secondary BBs were the BBs hit the hardest by the loss of secondary accuracy with the reworking of the manual secondaries skill (their 127s being ideally suited for engaging DDs), to say nothing of the preceding IFHE rework that dropped the boosted penetration of 127mm HE from 27mm to 26mm (another big loss for MA, as 27mm amidships deck plating is now standard for tier VIII+ cruisers) along with reducing fire chance.

These guns are now even more specialized for DDs than prior to the IFHE/cruiser plating changes, and not only has their maximum accuracy been reduced (they didn’t get the 20% base buff that the Germans did) but there is also now the “ramp up” mechanic that means the guns take some time to build up to this inferior accuracy, which is especially notable against DDs which often pop in out of detection, which resets the “ramp up.” Add in the introduction of submarines and WG’s decision to limit her ASW airstrikes to 5km, and Massachusetts is in a worse place in the current meta than she was when first released.

Edited January 7 by Nevermore135

[Snargfargle]

15 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

reworking of the manual secondaries skill

The bonus for manual secondaries disperses over 15 seconds if a DD becomes un-sighted or drifts out of range so if it is targeted soon enough the benefit is still there. However, the Massachusetts still has improved secondary accuracy even without manual control. One thing that helps it a lot in close-in battles is that now designating manual control doesn't shut down the secondaries on the other side of the ship completely like it did before. 26 mm of IFHE pen still is good for the half of the time when the Massachusetts is facing ships of the same or lower tier. Sure, 27 mm would be better but you gotta play the cards you are dealt. 

[Nevermore135]

2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

However, the Massachusetts still has improved secondary accuracy even without manual control.

Her base dispersion hasn’t changed (no ships had their base dispersion nerfed), but both the maximum accuracy bonus from the skill was reduced and this accuracy bonus is no longer instantaneous. This has resulted in a notable decrease in secondary performance at longer ranges, especially against smaller, more maneuverable targets like DDs (which in the hands of competent players often stay detected for only fairly short times). This noticeable loss of accuracy at range means that secondaries in general have become more anti-cruiser and anti-BB weapons than they were before the rework. This shift was clearly implemented in part to keep the German CCs (which have the same base accuracy and improved penetration) from being absolutely busted, but hit the 127mm-armed American BBs especially hard since their effectiveness against cruisers had already been reduced with the  loss of 27mm penetration from IFHE, the proliferation of 27mm amidships armor, and the fire chance nerf to the skill (this last one applying to all targets, of course).

2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

One thing that helps it a lot in close-in battles is that now designating manual control doesn't shut down the secondaries on the other side of the ship completely like it did before.

In the vast majority of cases outside of PVE, if you are dealing any amount of reliable damage with the “opposite side” secondary guns (which don’t get any manual targeting bonuses) you have put yourself in a bad defensive position. The effect of this change is minor outside of very close ranges (shells that miss don’t deal any damage, after all) and IMO is primarily a placebo (which I have no doubt is what WG intended). These are also 127mm guns that can only reliably pen lower-tier cruisers and destroyers, and at the ranges the “non-manual” guns can reliably hit these targets you have made yourself much more vulnerable to torpedoes. WG was pretty smart with using this change to justify the overall accuracy nerf, as it gave something of minor benefit that a lot of players had been asking for (non-targeted guns firing) in return for a noticeable overall nerf to a group of ships that had become problematic to WG’s design - the American “secondary” BBs that were widely considered superior secondary platforms to the German BBs, despite that being part of their “national flavor.” It’s not a coincidence that German BBs received a base dispersion buff to partially offset the nerfing of manual secondaries (they still have to deal with the “ramp up”) and American BBs did not. That the change also opened up more design space for the German CCs (MA/German CV dispersion with improved penetration effective against cruisers and BBs) was icing on the cake.

2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

26 mm of IFHE pen still is good for the half of the time when the Massachusetts is facing ships of the same or lower tier.

The loss of 27mm pen was huge because it was accompanied by the proliferation of 27mm armor on higher tier cruisers. Tier VIII-IX CLs have been standardized with 27mm center decks (30mm at tier X) while tier VIII-IX CAs also have 27mm upper belts (30mm at tier X), and keep in mind that the secondary gunnery AI aims amidships. At the same time, mid tier (VI-VII) cruisers were bumped up to 25mm center decks/upper belts standard in a similar way. The base (non-IFHE) performance of the guns became less effective against a lot of lower-tier targets at the same time that the IFHE-boosted performance became less effective against higher tier targets (larger fire chance penalty coupled with more plating that the guns can’t penetrate). The only ships hit harder by the concurrent IFHE/cruiser plating changes were Atlanta and Flint, which have 127mm main batteries at tier VII, meaning they encounter many of the same ships.

American secondary BBs were thrown a bone with the skill rework reducing IFHE’s cost to two points, but the changes to manual secondaries discussed above introduced more issues at the same time.

2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

Sure, 27 mm would be better but you gotta play the cards you are dealt. 

Of course. My assertion is that the cards MA holds nowadays are not as good as the cards she held upon release, before any of the changes I described above.

Edited January 7 by Nevermore135

[iDuckman]

You have to read carefully with LWM reviews.  She considers and rates within a number different milieux. The ship might be great for the one you're playing in and not suited for another.  For instance, have you ever seen a Massa in tournament play? 

Also, when she was doing her Angry Youtuber summations she made very clear that Mehbote did not mean weak -- just not that special.

All that said, I wonder how LWM would rate MA now?

 

[Utt_Bugglier]

She came out later and openly said she called it wrong on the Massachusetts in that review. You can look it up and read it for yourself in the WoWs foru…”oh, bugger!!!”

Edited January 8 by Utt_Bugglier
Added “later”

[Snargfargle]

I will admit that fires are definitely a problem for the Massachusetts, though one can oftentimes survive them. I'd like to take more fire prevention but that would mean nerfing my secondaries. The other Massachusetts found out the hard way what happens when you didn't build for secondaries and the Massachusetts you were fighting at 11 km did.

 

[Snargfargle]

1 minute ago, Utt_Bugglier said:

She came out and openly said she called it wrong on the Massachusetts in that review. You can look it up and read it for yourself in the WoWs foru…”oh, bugger!!!”

I had nearly 20,000 posts on the old forums, including over 250 song parodies and fan fiction stories. It was far too much for me to go through and archive so they are lost to posterity too. Not only that, I also had the same amount of posts on the old Age of Empires III forums. There, I did a lot of tech support and gave a lot of non-game advice as well as game advice too. Unlike the WG WOWS forums, for several years the Microsoft gaming forums allowed pretty much any subject to be discussed in Off Topic. Unfortunately, they shut down their game-specific forums and consolidated them to a more "modern social media" venue as did WG.

[Snargfargle]

I'm beginning to think that I might actually be good in this ship. Now, I need to only get good in another 300 ships to go to be a unicum!

 

 

[AdmiralMcintosh]

Massachusetts is more like a gudbote to me.