Seamanship, or lack of

[Gillhunter]

I wonder how many players have ever been on any kind of watercraft, much less operated one that play this game?

I put this seemingly total disregard for people running into other players squarely on WoWs for removing team damage. I think that the addition of subs into the game was the reason that team damage was removed. New players don't know that there was team damage at one time and you couldn't just ram around the battle zone running into other players.

Rant over.

[Admiral_Karasu]

I've operated a rubber dinghy, and some vessels in the bath tub, including a submarine. I suppose that qualifies me for lakemanship and bathtubmanship.

[Gillhunter]

21 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

I've operated a rubber dinghy, and some vessels in the bath tub, including a submarine. I suppose that qualifies me for lakemanship and bathtubmanship.

Well lets put it this way then. I wonder how many players have never operated a motor vehicle? Must be quite a few.

 

[Admiral_Karasu]

3 minutes ago, Gillhunter said:

Well lets put it this way then. I wonder how many players have never operated a motor vehicle? Must be quite a few.

 

Potentially.. if WG has been successful in their attempts to shift the market segment or some such thing they have in marketing.

[Slammer58]

I think mostly its situational awareness, or the lack thereof.  In the heat of battle, I've probably been guility of it myself...once...maybe.  🤔

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, Gillhunter said:

I wonder how many players have ever been on any kind of watercraft, much less operated one that play this game?

I put this seemingly total disregard for people running into other players squarely on WoWs for removing team damage. I think that the addition of subs into the game was the reason that team damage was removed. New players don't know that there was team damage at one time and you couldn't just ram around the battle zone running into other players.

Rant over.

Quote

On 13 September 1988, Boulder ran aground on a shoal northeast of Frøya in a Norwegian fjord during the NATO military exercise Teamwork '88. During the grounding, 880 US gallons (3,300 L; 730 imp gal) of diesel oil spilled from the LST. A Norwegian tugboat was dispatched to help dislodge Boulder.^[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Boulder

For what it is worth, I was young Marine aboard the LST Newport, the Boulder's sister-ship, during that training deployment.  
Everyone aboard the Newport heard about the incident as the news was delivered via the Newport's public-address sytem.

If trained personnel can run their ship aground during peace-time, why should we hold untrained players to high standards during a pixel-'botes game?  🙂 

[Gillhunter]

17 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Boulder

For what it is worth, I was young Marine aboard the LST Newport, the Boulder's sister-ship, during that training deployment.  
Everyone aboard the Newport heard about the incident as the news was delivered via the Newport's public-address sytem.

If trained personnel can run their ship aground during peace-time, why should we hold untrained players to high standards during a pixel-'botes game?  🙂 

So, assuming the shoal was accurately marked on the charts, what do you think happened to the personnel responsible?

For what it's worth I spent several years aboard CLGs and we never ran into anything.

Any accountability has been removed by WoWs.

[DDG44_Vet]

6 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Boulder

For what it is worth, I was young Marine aboard the LST Newport, the Boulder's sister-ship, during that training deployment.  
Everyone aboard the Newport heard about the incident as the news was delivered via the Newport's public-address sytem.

If trained personnel can run their ship aground during peace-time, why should we hold untrained players to high standards during a pixel-'botes game?  🙂 

Hey @Wolfswetpaws, I participated in Teamwork ‘88 as well, was 1st Lt. aboard the William V. Pratt at the time.  I remember being in CIC when the news of Boulder going aground came over the secure comms, there was concern about the Admiralty Law consequences of a civilian tug pulling her off and the ensuing salvage rights.  That’s was one cold exercise to be sure, picked up my Bluenose certificate on that one. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

7 hours ago, Gillhunter said:

So, assuming the shoal was accurately marked on the charts, what do you think happened to the personnel responsible?

For what it's worth I spent several years aboard CLGs and we never ran into anything.

Any accountability has been removed by WoWs.

I'm not going to speculate on the question of "What do you think happened to the personnel responsible?"
If you can find public records for the outcome of the Captain and senior crew of the Boulder, then I hope you'll share.

Most vessels don't have an accident, at least most of the time. 
But there's a canal in the middle-east that had a container ship get blown by winds into the sandy banks and get stuck for a while.
Or how about a ship's load of expensive cars which were lost during a fire reportedly started by an electric car?
Stuff happens.
If vessel safety incidents aren't enough, then consider expanding the scope to automobile, motorcycle and truck accident statistics.

World of Warships doesn't require a training course in seamanship or "right of way" or chart-reading or lessons in understanding Aids-to-Navigation buoys, markers and lighthouses.
We're simply untrained players in a demolition derby that doesn't allow allies to damage each other by collision.

So, my expectations for other player's ship handling prowess are low.
And I've been known to "oops" and collide with an ally while being distracted by multiple opponents or find myself beached on an island that my screen wasn't depicting very well on the mini-map.
Stuff happens.
I type "oops, sorry" and move on with my life.  🙂 

[Wolfswetpaws]

59 minutes ago, DDG44_Vet said:

Hey @Wolfswetpaws, I participated in Teamwork ‘88 as well, was 1st Lt. aboard the William V. Pratt at the time.  I remember being in CIC when the news of Boulder going aground came over the secure comms, there was concern about the Admiralty Law consequences of a civilian tug pulling her off and the ensuing salvage rights.  That’s was one cold exercise to be sure, picked up my Bluenose certificate on that one. 

My Unit and I deployed to Norway as part of that exercise.

[Snargfargle]

When I was an undergrad, there was a lake near the college where you could rent small sailboats. That's one of the most fun things I've ever done. Most of my friends hadn't a clue how to sail them and would run into each other or the bank, that is when they weren't swimming around in the water after swamping themselves. After watching the first weekend of mayhem, I spent the next weekend in the library reading up on how to sail. I got pretty good at it and the owner of the marina always let me take out one of the better sailboats that he didn't want torn up. When the lake was busy and there was a stiff breeze it was like playing dodgeboat though.

[Aethervox]

I'm an ex-commercial mariner who had a marine navigation certificate (now expired, being retired) & knowing the nautical rules of the road would be beneficial to all WoWS players, however, this is a pixel boat fantasy sand box & considering the majority of players who play this you can, in terms of 'seamanship, or lack therof', Forget About It.

[Gillhunter]

6 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I'm not going to speculate on the question of "What do you think happened to the personnel responsible?"
If you can find public records for the outcome of the Captain and senior crew of the Boulder, then I hope you'll share.

Most vessels don't have an accident, at least most of the time. 
But there's a canal in the middle-east that had a container ship get blown by winds into the sandy banks and get stuck for a while.
Or how about a ship's load of expensive cars which were lost during a fire reportedly started by an electric car?
Stuff happens.
If vessel safety incidents aren't enough, then consider expanding the scope to automobile, motorcycle and truck accident statistics.

World of Warships doesn't require a training course in seamanship or "right of way" or chart-reading or lessons in understanding Aids-to-Navigation buoys, markers and lighthouses.
We're simply untrained players in a demolition derby that doesn't allow allies to damage each other by collision.

So, my expectations for other player's ship handling prowess are low.
And I've been known to "oops" and collide with an ally while being distracted by multiple opponents or find myself beached on an island that my screen wasn't depicting very well on the mini-map.
Stuff happens.
I type "oops, sorry" and move on with my life.  🙂 

I'm not talking about an "oops", and haven't seen anyone saying they are sorry they hit you in a long time. That used to be pretty common in the game.

I'm talking about the blatant disregard for anyone around them that I see today. 

 

[Yedwy]

3 minutes ago, Gillhunter said:

I'm not talking about an "oops", and haven't seen anyone saying they are sorry they hit you in a long time. That used to be pretty common in the game.

I'm talking about the blatant disregard for anyone around them that I see today. 

 

WG fav customer base - people they can sell the same ship models over and over folr 30-70€ a pice if they just "paint them black", put some WH40k skin on them or some weeb bs...

[OT2_2]

I had been sailor (electronic counter measures / passive radar reconnaissance) on a West German mine - sweeper for two years in the early eighties with the cold war at its peak. 

 

Edited January 2 by OT2_2

[Jakob Knight]

I sailed on half a dozen kinds of ships when I was Active Duty in the Navy, and qualified for my Surface Warfare pin.  That means I had to learn the various positions on the ship and how they functioned, including Navigation. On a USN ship, the XO is nominally the senior Navigation officer as well as his duties in regards to managing the other departments of the ship, but it takes a team of other officers and enlisted to do the job.  Trying to avoid other ships in close proximity that are also maneuvering without coordinating with you is among the worst nightmares a navigator can have, as multi-thousand-ton masses of metal do not respond quickly when you find you've made a mistake.  In this, WOWS accurately displays what happens when a crew is so focused on one thing that they lose situational awareness and end up in the path of someone else.  This happened multiple times in WWII, including a rather famous incident where one of the United States presidents almost didn't live to achieve that office when his PT boat was run over by an IJN DD that didn't even notice they were there.

 

As for the reasons for the removal of friendly fire, there were several factors that might be to blame, not the least being the tendency of players to launch torpedoes without watching if teammates could be hit by them.  At the time of removal, Kitakami was being put back in for testing, and I believe the spectre of this ship being back in the game is what prompted the action.  If Submarines were also a factor, it was that players were depth-charging their own Submarines out of spite.  If we want to apply real-world consequential considerations here, let's ask also what would happen to a commanding officer who ordered his ship to engage and destroy a friendly Submarine due to personal bias, having a bad day, or to get a thrill out of it?  Or who launched their torpedoes or fired their main batteries without regard to the hazard to friendly units in the area?  Or, going a little further, if an actual Naval officer sent out messages over the comm net about how bad other commanders and types of naval units were or how unfair those units made warfare?  I think a personal conference with the Admiralty where that commanding officer was told 'We believe this career is not one suited to one of your temperament, outlook, and decision-making capacity, and direct you find another outside the Navy' is a ludicrously least-case probability of the kind of consequences such actions would merit.

 

Games happen, and until there is a desire to impose actual Maritime laws, operating procedures, qualification standards, and performance reviews by superiors, there will be alot of things players do that don't make sense and have no consequences.  Getting upset about them just makes yourself miserable.  As one fictional serviceman said to another when the second complained that the first had been snubbed by an old lady he had carried across the street earlier,  "I left that old lady back at the corner.  Why are you still carrying her around?" 

 

Edited January 2 by Jakob Knight

[Admiral_Karasu]

4 hours ago, Gillhunter said:

I'm not talking about an "oops", and haven't seen anyone saying they are sorry they hit you in a long time. That used to be pretty common in the game.

I'm talking about the blatant disregard for anyone around them that I see today. 

 

Well, most times it's a minor inconvenience, unlike when FF was a thing. Now, the worst that can happen is you lose your speed and course, though that can still have consequences depending if that makes you an easy target to shoot at.

[Pugilistic]

I remember the fun times when people would explode after scraping off their last hundred HP in a sideswipe, and other friendly fire follies. 

But FF had to be removed for subs, so now we can shoot torps indiscriminately into melees. 

[Gillhunter]

I'm an old guy and sometimes have difficulty understanding the game. Let me see if I have this right.

WoWs incorporates team damage in the game and stands by that decision for several years despite protest by some players.

WoWs introduces it's protected class, Subs, into the game and removes team damage because it may be unfair to the protected class.

So unacceptable behavior has now become acceptable behavior.

Many seem just fine with that.

I guess the game does mirror real life.

[BlueNautilus]

I am guilty of killing countless teammates with my random Yoshino torps.  Ah, those were the days...

[Ensign Cthulhu]

41 minutes ago, Gillhunter said:

WoWs introduces it's protected class, Subs, into the game and removes team damage because it may be unfair to the protected class.

That's a gross misrepresentation of what they were afraid of. Also, Kitakami may be part of the reason.

 

25 minutes ago, BlueNautilus said:

I am guilty of killing countless teammates with my random Yoshino torps.  Ah, those were the days...

Let's just say that I have a double devstrike to my credit that I would do anything to take back.

[Asym]

42 minutes ago, Gillhunter said:

I'm an old guy and sometimes have difficulty understanding the game. Let me see if I have this right.

WoWs incorporates team damage in the game and stands by that decision for several years despite protest by some players.

WoWs introduces it's protected class, Subs, into the game and removes team damage because it may be unfair to the protected class.

So unacceptable behavior has now become acceptable behavior.

Many seem just fine with that.

I guess the game does mirror real life.

I suspect there's a lot more to removing team damage from the game.  Several of the CM's have stated it was because of the prevalence of Team Killings on the EU server that lead them to removing it....  I suspect that isn't the real reason !  It was simply a way to "loosen and de-age the game responsibility" so they could get 8 year olds into the game that had grandma's credit card...... 

It really needs to be brought back.

break

On 1/1/2024 at 12:35 PM, Gillhunter said:

I wonder how many players have ever been on any kind of watercraft, much less operated one that play this game?

I put this seemingly total disregard for people running into other players squarely on WoWs for removing team damage. I think that the addition of subs into the game was the reason that team damage was removed. New players don't know that there was team damage at one time and you couldn't just ram around the battle zone running into other players.

Rant over.

Now, I have visited all sorts of Military ships and have Navy veteran friends and family.  As well as relatives whom have Captain licenses for commercial cargo craft...  I was supposed to go to MMA and participate with the NROTC there....  I enlisted in the Army and jumped out of planes and took up tanks when I was commissioned.....

That is the reason I can not play World of Tanks......  Let's be nice and say WOTS is for grade school children cause real life is nothing like that game.....

In 1988 I was in two Deserts and then,  Command and General Staff College....

[Gillhunter]

21 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

That's a gross misrepresentation of what they were afraid of. Also, Kitakami may be part of the reason.

 

Can you provide any facts to support your opinion? What were they afraid of?

Edited January 2 by Gillhunter

[Jakob Knight]

41 minutes ago, Gillhunter said:

I'm an old guy and sometimes have difficulty understanding the game. Let me see if I have this right.

WoWs incorporates team damage in the game and stands by that decision for several years despite protest by some players.

WoWs introduces it's protected class, Subs, into the game and removes team damage because it may be unfair to the protected class.

So unacceptable behavior has now become acceptable behavior.

Many seem just fine with that.

I guess the game does mirror real life.

 

Nope.  More like this....

 

WOWS incorporates team damage in the game and stands by that decision for several years despite protest by some players due to occasional friendly damage due to ramming, torpedo deployment, and firing secondaries when close to teammates.  Penalties are put in place to encourage players to learn not to be reckless in their use of their ships.

 

WOWS decides to re-introduce a torpedo cruiser that was well-known for striking teammates with its massive and long-ranged torpedo salvoes, and players begin actively attacking their own teammates when those teammates choose to run a new type of unit in the game that some find objectionable.  It is decided the playerbase can't be trusted to avoid damaging their teammates even with the penalties already in place, and the ability to damage is removed because the playerbase itself has demonstrated an unwillingness to learn not to attack their teammates for whatever reason.

 

So one unacceptable line of behavior has been removed because it remains unacceptable and previous attempts to prevent it have failed and the benefits of it being in the game are outweighed by the damage it does to gameplay.

 

And yes, the game does mirror real life.  Continue to misuse or not use competently the tools you are given and they will eventually be removed from you.  Players may like to hide behind the 'It's a game, I'll play it however I like' excuse, but multiplayer games are not just for one player's enjoyment. 

 

[Gillhunter]

7 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

Nope.  More like this....

 

WOWS incorporates team damage in the game and stands by that decision for several years despite protest by some players due to occasional friendly damage due to ramming, torpedo deployment, and firing secondaries when close to teammates.  Penalties are put in place to encourage players to learn not to be reckless in their use of their ships.

 

WOWS decides to re-introduce a torpedo cruiser that was well-known for striking teammates with its massive and long-ranged torpedo salvoes, and players begin actively attacking their own teammates when those teammates choose to run a new type of unit in the game that some find objectionable.  It is decided the playerbase can't be trusted to avoid damaging their teammates even with the penalties already in place, and the ability to damage is removed because the playerbase itself has demonstrated an unwillingness to learn not to attack their teammates for whatever reason.

 

So one unacceptable line of behavior has been removed because it remains unacceptable and previous attempts to prevent it have failed and the benefits of it being in the game are outweighed by the damage it does to gameplay.

 

And yes, the game does mirror real life.  Continue to misuse or not use competently the tools you are given and they will eventually be removed from you.  Players may like to hide behind the 'It's a game, I'll play it however I like' excuse, but multiplayer games are not just for one player's enjoyment. 

 

I'm not a programmer so I'm not sure how difficult this would be be. It seems to my that if all the damage that a person inflects on a team mates ship was reflected back on theirs and zero damage to the team mate the problem would mostly solve itself.