Subs in PvE

[Gillhunter]

This isn't about Sub bashing, they apparently are here to stay, it's how you deal with them. I'm a Cruiser main so my perspective will be from playing a Cruiser. Currently the red sub spawns opposite the green sub be it a human or a bot. Like CVs, WOWs decided that subs can't kill each other, that must be left to someone else. In my experience it doesn't matter if the green sub captain is human or a bot, someone else has to deal with the red bot(s).

If the green sub spawns on the other flank all is good (for you at least). If the green sub spawns on your flank you are going to have to deal with the red sub. The way I see it these are your choices.

Turn and head in the opposite direction and avoid contact. Unfortunately this action can negatively impact your ability to attack other red ships lowering your score potential.

Stay and kill the red sub. I've killed lots of red subs, but because subs can absorb so much damage it takes a lot of hits and you are also subject to being sunk by the other red ships on that flank.

Ignore the sub and go after the other red ships on the flank and if the sub goes after you it will shotgun you and probably sink you.

I normally choose the first option which doesn't make me like subs in the game.

Is there some other strategy that you have found successful?

[Wolfswetpaws]

I'm not sure it is "strategy", but I attempt to position so that an island is convenient for blocking submarine torpedoes.
If that isn't available, then using open water and the knowledge of how homing topedoes operate and when they stop homing and swim in a straight line helps.

H.E. projectiles are effective simply by landing "close enough" to a submarine (of course, an actual hit is better).
If the submarine is sending pings at my cruiser, then it is on the surface or at periscope depth and can be hit by my main-guns.

I'm not opposed to kiting away for a little while, to provide time to either sink the submarine or sink their team-mates so that I can focus on the submarine.

[Gillhunter]

19 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I'm not sure it is "strategy", but I attempt to position so that an island is convenient for blocking submarine torpedoes.
If that isn't available, then using open water and the knowledge of how homing topedoes operate and when they stop homing and swim in a straight line helps.

H.E. projectiles are effective simply by landing "close enough" to a submarine (of course, an actual hit is better).
If the submarine is sending pings at my cruiser, then it is on the surface or at periscope depth and can be hit by my main-guns.

I'm not opposed to kiting away for a little while, to provide time to either sink the submarine or sink their team-mates so that I can focus on the submarine.

All of these are good moves that negatively impact your scoring potential. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

7 minutes ago, Gillhunter said:

All of these are good moves that negatively impact your scoring potential. 

Sure.
But getting sunk would also impact your scoring potential ... so ...?  🙂 
I forgot to mention I'm still shooting at other available targets simultaneously.  Hope that helps.

[Kiruna]

It comes down to luck or a lack there of for me. If I am in a BB or a cruiser with airstrike I uncommonly get a sub game. However, when I’m in my German Cruisers which are my favorite boats in the game but are equipped with ship mounted depth charges instead, I seem to have subs very commonly. I do tend to stick to T7 or T8 mostly though so that could be impacting my luck a bit
 

BB or airstrike equipped cruiser I tend to just stay where I spawned and get some free damage. If I am in my German cruisers though, I tend to head to a different map point while shooting what I can along the way. 

[Gillhunter]

20 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Sure.
But getting sunk would also impact your scoring potential ... so ...?  🙂 
I forgot to mention I'm still shooting at other available targets simultaneously.  Hope that helps.

Really?

[Ensign Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, Gillhunter said:

Like CVs, WOWs decided that subs can't kill each other

This is a gross oversimplification. I'm pretty sure @ArIskandir has done a lot of work on this, and could probably give us a few pointers.

[Gillhunter]

27 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

This is a gross oversimplification. I'm pretty sure @ArIskandir has done a lot of work on this, and could probably give us a few pointers.

Would you care to explain why you have determined this is a "gross oversimplification"? 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Gillhunter

[I_cant_Swim_]

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

If that isn't available, then using open water and the knowledge of how homing topedoes operate and when they stop homing and swim in a straight line helps.

57 minutes ago, Gillhunter said:

All of these are good moves that negatively impact your scoring potential. 

48 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I forgot to mention I'm still shooting at other available targets simultaneously.  Hope that helps.

Sorry for the triple quotes.

This is more or less what I've finally understood to be the only viable option for me on most maps, at some point at least. I haven't really found the fun factor there yet, though, because I have trouble kiting away at proper angles (and remaining within acceptable angles) while having a chance at avoiding incoming shells and hitting anything meaningfully. I'm not a s dreadfully helpless as  when subs were just introduced, and I now often survive the match - albeit with poor score. I can only get better.

The biggest issue here is that the match is often over before you can do much, this way

Edited November 26, 2023 by I_cant_Swim_
added something

[Gillhunter]

46 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

This is a gross oversimplification. I'm pretty sure @ArIskandir has done a lot of work on this, and could probably give us a few pointers.

Would you care to explain why you have determined this is a "gross oversimplification"? 

 

I thought not.

[Asym]

1 hour ago, Gillhunter said:

All of these are good moves that negatively impact your scoring potential. 

BINGO, we have a winner !   And that ^^^^, is why they are in the game and the reason our host massacred the game engine to include them !!!  And, the cream on the Pie was that they got rid of Team Damage because:  "we were seeing players destroying Subs and Carriers at game start so they could earn more....."  Perfect:  introduce a terrible product;  mangle the game engine that changes how the game works (so the House always wins - centralized spawning versus mirrored); eliminate any personal responsibility for your actions that makes the game "kid proof"; and, make money selling an unwanted product and, eliminating real value earned per match as throughput increases by 20% - PERFECT....   👍

They "force us" to play more games at a lower ROI time wise and they steal the "real value" of say, another BOT Battleship....  Period.  Imagine submarines without homing torpedoes !  The homing function is what I believe they created to served two purposes:  for people to spend money on (whales and gimmicks);  and,  for the spreadsheet GoDs to see an overall reduction in individual earnings at an increase in throughput - PERFECT - pock the customer by giving them a tool to buy that really, seriously doesn't work and we, the corporation, laughs at us....  "All for one and one for all !  - (and, more for me !)"...... Ah hahahahaha - poor saps.  [face slap emoji]

End of Line.  (think of the Irony of this situation ^^^^ and have a laugh as well...... !)

Edited November 26, 2023 by Asym

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, I_cant_Swim_ said:

Sorry for the triple quotes.

This is more or less what I've finally understood to be the only viable option for me on most maps, at some point at least. I haven't really found the fun factor there yet, though, because I have trouble kiting away at proper angles (and remaining within acceptable angles) while having a chance at avoiding incoming shells and hitting anything meaningfully. I'm not a s dreadfully helpless as  when subs were just introduced, and I now often survive the match - albeit with poor score. I can only get better.

The biggest issue here is that the match is often over before you can do much, this way

In co-op or randoms?
 @Gillhunter & @I_cant_Swim_ ?

[Gillhunter]

10 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

In co-op or randoms?
 @Gillhunter & @I_cant_Swim_ ?

Co-op. I think subs should be restricted to randoms.

[I_cant_Swim_]

10 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

In co-op or randoms?

The OP meant PvE, so that's what I stuck with. In PvP, dealing with subs feels better. You have more options, more time especially, even if the sub captain is human.

[Musket22]

2 hours ago, I_cant_Swim_ said:

I haven't really found the fun factor there yet, though ...

Remember "FUN & ENGAGING"?

Well, the FUN is there but for sub players mostly.

For many of us (no, I'm not typing for everyone) surface ship players they are just aggrevating.

Sub players will tell you "Subs were there in combat during WW2" and they were  but not with all these gimmicks.

When you ask them about poor performing torpedoes and fragile hulls, they reply;

"Forget those things, this isn't sim it's an arcade game!" 

Long Range pinging + Homing Torpedoes, High Speeds, Low detectability to sonar, Damage Saturation, Shotgun attacks...

These things sure make the game "FUN & Engaging" don't they!

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 minutes ago, Gillhunter said:

Co-op. I think subs should be restricted to randoms.

 

2 minutes ago, I_cant_Swim_ said:

The OP meant PvE, so that's what I stuck with. In PvP, dealing with subs feels better. You have more options, more time especially, even if the sub captain is human.

Okay, in both cases, it helps if the team works together, but there are (as you both know) differing player psychology incentives in each game mode (co-op compared with randoms).

When a team spawns and advances towards the map objectives, the options or initial paths for each player's ship are revealed.
If there is a grouping of Sub/DD/Cruiser/BB at the spawn, then I feel it is beneficial if they travel in roughly the same direction and remain within a few km of each other to provide mutual suppport.
The idea being that the submarine and/or DD will make "first contact" to discover the red-team ships.
If the green-team Sub/DD has enough support, what they detect can be fired-upon and either sunk or forced to retreat.
If this is done successfully, early and often, the process of using focused-fire to sink one red-team ship at a time can be repeated until the flank or pathing is cleared.

However, if a Cruiser and BB take paths that remain too far back or are behind islands and thus cannot contribute their firepower during the crucial first-contact moments, the engagement may be won by the red-team. 
The red-team may sink the Submarine or the DD (or both) and then gains a significant spotting advantage in random battles. 
But, in Co-op, with 'Bots following programmed routes and not lacking for courage, this advantage may be squandered by the 'Bots as they charge forward with guns blazing and remain continuously visible as targets. 
The red-team ships may sail into torpedo ambushes while the Cruiser and BB are coming-about to perform kiting or are merely maneuvering wildly while advancing (to avoid torpedoes and get close enough to use their Depthcharge Airstrikes while the red-team's submarine and DD's last-known-locations are still fresh and useful intel).

In co-op, it pays to multi-task and sail towards red-team ships.  

Bot submarines don't often use a very sophisticated methodology and often give-away their position with frequent pings. 
Pings made from periscope depth, where they are vulnerable to main-gun and secondary-battery fire.
This makes them fairly easy to locate and subsequently sink, especially if one can position their ship out of the submarine's torpedo-launching arcs.
Granted, closing the distance to get into this position is a risk. 
There may be a window of opportunity if one observes torpedoes fired at another green-team ship and knows the reload timing for that submarine.

Has anyone tried setting-up a training room and placing a 'bot submarine to fight while they play their favorite cruiser, in order to practice torpedo dodging?
 

[Wolfswetpaws]

16 minutes ago, Musket22 said:

Remember "FUN & ENGAGING"?

Well, the FUN is there but for sub players mostly.

For many of us (no, I'm not typing for everyone) surface ship players they are just aggrevating.

Sub players will tell you "Subs were there in combat during WW2" and they were  but not with all these gimmicks.

When you ask them about poor performing torpedoes and fragile hulls, they reply;

"Forget those things, this isn't sim it's an arcade game!" 

Long Range pinging + Homing Torpedoes, High Speeds, Low detectability to sonar, Damage Saturation, Shotgun attacks...

These things sure make the game "FUN & Engaging" don't they!

The original poster mentioned they weren't here to start an anti-submarine rant. 
They're interested in useful methods to sink submarines.

What are you offering, from your personal experiences and successful engagements, to help?

[Gillhunter]

25 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

 

Okay, in both cases, it helps if the team works together, but there are (as you both know) differing player psychology incentives in each game mode (co-op compared with randoms).

When a team spawns and advances towards the map objectives, the options or initial paths for each player's ship are revealed.
If there is a grouping of Sub/DD/Cruiser/BB at the spawn, then I feel it is beneficial if they travel in roughly the same direction and remain within a few km of each other to provide mutual suppport.
The idea being that the submarine and/or DD will make "first contact" to discover the red-team ships.
If the green-team Sub/DD has enough support, what they detect can be fired-upon and either sunk or forced to retreat.
If this is done successfully, early and often, the process of using focused-fire to sink one red-team ship at a time can be repeated until the flank or pathing is cleared.

However, if a Cruiser and BB take paths that remain too far back or are behind islands and thus cannot contribute their firepower during the crucial first-contact moments, the engagement may be won by the red-team. 
The red-team may sink the Submarine or the DD (or both) and then gains a significant spotting advantage in random battles. 
But, in Co-op, with 'Bots following programmed routes and not lacking for courage, this advantage may be squandered by the 'Bots as they charge forward with guns blazing and remain continuously visible as targets. 
The red-team ships may sail into torpedo ambushes while the Cruiser and BB are coming-about to perform kiting or are merely maneuvering wildly while advancing (to avoid torpedoes and get close enough to use their Depthcharge Airstrikes while the red-team's submarine and DD's last-known-locations are still fresh and useful intel).

In co-op, it pays to multi-task and sail towards red-team ships.  

Bot submarines don't often use a very sophisticated methodology and often give-away their position with frequent pings. 
Pings made from periscope depth, where they are vulnerable to main-gun and secondary-battery fire.
This makes them fairly easy to locate and subsequently sink, especially if one can position their ship out of the submarine's torpedo-launching arcs.
Granted, closing the distance to get into this position is a risk. 
There may be a window of opportunity if one observes torpedoes fired at another green-team ship and knows the reload timing for that submarine.

Has anyone tried setting-up a training room and placing a 'bot submarine to fight while they play their favorite cruiser, in order to practice torpedo dodging?
 

When is the last time you experienced teamwork in either a random or co-op battle, especially co-op. Even when I play with a clan member in co-op we greet each other and that's the extent of our teamwork. In fact in my experience in co-op has been that most divisions I see finish at the bottom in scoring.

Recently I have noticed DDs (which should be the counter to subs, but not in the current game) holding back when a sub is in the game and following a CL or BB into battle. This is something you never used to see. 

I've sunk tons of subs in co-op, but it takes a lot of time which is counterproductive and opens you up to take damage from other reds. Play a ship with slow turret travel and fight a sub on one side and a CL on the other.

I challenge you to ignore a red sub in a match until it's close and shotguns you and not take heavy damage or get sunk. Spending all your time dodging torps is counterproductive to scoring damage in co-op.

Teamwork may be the answer, but I don't see that happening.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Gillhunter

[I_cant_Swim_]

5 minutes ago, Gillhunter said:

I challenge you to ignore a red sub in a match until it's close and shotguns you and not take heavy damage or get sunk. Spending all your time dodging torps is counterproductive to scoring damage in co-op

This isn't what @Wolfswetpaws was suggesting, though. Still, expecting team-work in co-op is more than likely going to fail.

And yet, with the subs here to stay, his suggestion is the most viable. We just have to learn to get used to it, and maybe loosely agree that cooperating in co-op is good, if at least in the case of subs.

[Asym]

29 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

 

Okay, in both cases, it helps if the team works together, but there are (as you both know) differing player psychology incentives in each game mode (co-op compared with randoms).

When a team spawns and advances towards the map objectives, the options or initial paths for each player's ship are revealed.
If there is a grouping of Sub/DD/Cruiser/BB at the spawn, then I feel it is beneficial if they travel in roughly the same direction and remain within a few km of each other to provide mutual suppport.
The idea being that the submarine and/or DD will make "first contact" to discover the red-team ships.
If the green-team Sub/DD has enough support, what they detect can be fired-upon and either sunk or forced to retreat.
If this is done successfully, early and often, the process of using focused-fire to sink one red-team ship at a time can be repeated until the flank or pathing is cleared.

However, if a Cruiser and BB take paths that remain too far back or are behind islands and thus cannot contribute their firepower during the crucial first-contact moments, the engagement may be won by the red-team. 
The red-team may sink the Submarine or the DD (or both) and then gains a significant spotting advantage in random battles. 
But, in Co-op, with 'Bots following programmed routes and not lacking for courage, this advantage may be squandered by the 'Bots as they charge forward with guns blazing and remain continuously visible as targets. 
The red-team ships may sail into torpedo ambushes while the Cruiser and BB are coming-about to perform kiting or are merely maneuvering wildly while advancing (to avoid torpedoes and get close enough to use their Depthcharge Airstrikes while the red-team's submarine and DD's last-known-locations are still fresh and useful intel).

In co-op, it pays to multi-task and sail towards red-team ships.  

Bot submarines don't often use a very sophisticated methodology and often give-away their position with frequent pings. 
Pings made from periscope depth, where they are vulnerable to main-gun and secondary-battery fire.
This makes them fairly easy to locate and subsequently sink, especially if one can position their ship out of the submarine's torpedo-launching arcs.
Granted, closing the distance to get into this position is a risk. 
There may be a window of opportunity if one observes torpedoes fired at another green-team ship and knows the reload timing for that submarine.

Has anyone tried setting-up a training room and placing a 'bot submarine to fight while they play their favorite cruiser, in order to practice torpedo dodging?
 

Teamwork?  This is a First Person Shooter.......in an arena cooperative setting????   We rarely ever division in COOP.  We always division in ASB's and RO's.

Submarines are simply a distraction that lessens individual earnings at the same time, players buying them....  In PVE, they lengthen game duration and that isn't a good idea for our host whom, wants faster throughput !  More games = more revenue.  

So, we exist with them in PVE and that experience simply, for me, is a negative experience....  They distract from what the game started as:  a LOS combat shooter using ships that operate inside of the horizon...

And, everyone is entitled to their own opinions....  The market will decide for us sometime in the future I guess.

[Asym]

2 minutes ago, I_cant_Swim_ said:

This isn't what @Wolfswetpaws was suggesting, though. Still, expecting team-work in co-op is more than likely going to fail.

And yet, with the subs here to stay, his suggestion is the most viable. We just have to learn to get used to it, and maybe loosely agree that cooperating in co-op is good, if at least in the case of subs.

That sound like an Oxymoron>:  cooperating in COOP -  just makes my teeth hurt and the concept seems........greasy.  ewwwwww...... 🥺

[Taylor3006]

Personally I refuse to offer assistance to submarines on my team and just ignore the red ones unless absolutely pressed. If the human players have a miserable time using them, then they may quit using them. Least that is how I deal with the issue. I always move away from friendly subs and just let them go do their thing. I am not going to spot for them, not giving them AA or fire support, they can go play with themselves IMHO. It can significantly impact my overall score but I tend to only use premium ships where you have to do very little damage in order to stay profitable. 

[HamptonRoads]

I play the hand I'm dealt.  If I happen to spawn with a sub, I'll go in knowing that I'm probably going to have to deal with it, more so if I'm the lead surface ship.  If it starts pinging, then you need to see if it is closing on you or moving laterally and pinging to annoy you.  If the latter I will ignore it since I'm not in the firing arc.  Assuming that you don't have aerial depth charges, but are in a cruiser with hydro, activate once you get to within 10 nm of the sub, and start your WASD hax to minimize enemy ships locking on to you, and zigzag towards the sub.  You should have time/distance to dodge the first wave of torpedoes if you use your DCP effectively.  With luck, you should be able to drop DCs on the sub or run over it before the second wave of torps comes.  If you can't doge, try to absorb as many hits in the same location and hope saturation limits the damage you take. 

[Gillhunter]

5 minutes ago, HamptonRoads said:

I play the hand I'm dealt.  If I happen to spawn with a sub, I'll go in knowing that I'm probably going to have to deal with it, more so if I'm the lead surface ship.  If it starts pinging, then you need to see if it is closing on you or moving laterally and pinging to annoy you.  If the latter I will ignore it since I'm not in the firing arc.  Assuming that you don't have aerial depth charges, but are in a cruiser with hydro, activate once you get to within 10 nm of the sub, and start your WASD hax to minimize enemy ships locking on to you, and zigzag towards the sub.  You should have time/distance to dodge the first wave of torpedoes if you use your DCP effectively.  With luck, you should be able to drop DCs on the sub or run over it before the second wave of torps comes.  If you can't doge, try to absorb as many hits in the same location and hope saturation limits the damage you take. 

Good post with decent strategy. Thanks

Just for fun I'm searching for a "I have fun playing against subs" thread, but have been unsuccessful thus far. LOL

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 hours ago, Asym said:

That sound like an Oxymoron>:  cooperating in COOP -  just makes my teeth hurt and the concept seems........greasy.  ewwwwww...... 🥺

Well, what solutions are you offering that are better than mine?  🙂 
Put-up or shut-up, eh?  🙂