Why WG made Picardie so bad?

[New_Jersey_prpr]

As the title implies.

We all know how WG made these MBRB equipped French BBs, it's basically:

1. Adjust some stats (mostly buffs) 2. Add MBRB 3. Uptier the ship.

We are familiar with Jean Bart and Bourgogne, one is now only available during black Friday event (for most players who don't get them in santa crates), another one is available for steel, and both are pretty powerful ship at their tier, in other words, they are straight upgrades compared to the original one (Richelieu and Alsace respectively) and remained competitive, so please allow me to skip the comparison part of these two.

Then we got Strasbourg and Dunkerque, though the improvement is not that significant if compared with Jean Bart or Bourgogne, Strasbourg still got the following improvements when compared to Dunkerque.

+MBRB

+improved reload (1 second)

+better accuracy (1.7 sigma→1.8 sigma)

+better range

+better armor. Dunkerque has 225 mm belt and 40 mm turtleback, while Strasbourg has 283 mm belt and 50 mm turtleback.

Strasbourg also got some nerfs when compared with Dunkerque, but I believe it's safe to say that most people won't notice them unless they dig into those charts.

-Strasbourg's mid range AA has 4 less dps

-the added armor makes her heavier (35500 tons→36308 tons, if you are curious), thus her power to weight ratio is ~2% worse

 

The comparison between Lyon and Picardie can raise many doubts and questions. In comparison, Picardie has:

+MBRB

+better concealment (partly thanks to concealment module)

+32 mm plating (yet the majority T8 battleships have it)

+better range

+improved reload (30 sec→27 sec)

+better turret traverse, and B and X turret can rotate 360 degrees

-worse damage output (Picardie is worse than Lyon in terms of: damage per minute, fires per minute, ballistics, and penetration capabilities)

-significantly worse AA

In several important respectives, Picardie is significantly worse than her T7 counterpart. WG just undo the nerf of Marlborough's shell damage recently, long after its release (meaning the previous nerfs to her are unnecessary), and the adjustments (nerfs) to Picardie is like hinting: unlike other MBRB equipped French battleships, an improved Lyon is overpowered even when uptiered. If that's the case, WG should consider nerfing Lyon asap, she's overpowered at T7 in WG's standards.

When can WG stop over-nerfing their new ships? Let's also not forget the recent long-awaited buffs to Pan-Asian cruisers (meaning WG admitted that they are underpowered in the past).

[torino2dc]

I think the analysis of the Picardie lacks some important context. Readers who just assume that WG has done another copy/paste + MBRB job could end up with a lot of mistaken assumptions.

Main Battery. The Picardie is equipped with 305mm guns, unlike the Lyon, which has 340mm guns. It would be unrealistic to expect the shell values to be the same.  

Concealment. Picardie has almost 1.5km better base detection than Lyon. With the T8 module and CE, the Picardie can attain 11.3km detect vs. Lyon's 13.8km max detect. A 2.5km difference in max detect makes for a drastic change in tactical options between the two ships.  

Armor. Lyon has good armor (above all the 180mm upper belt), but has to play around main two weaknesses: 1) the 26mm bow/stern armor struggles against 380mm BB AP which makes kiting unreliable; 2) the 30mm deck is weak to T8+ CLs and 457mm overmatch from T9 BBs which makes uptiers uncomfortable. Picardie fixes both of those problems with 32mm plate on her extremities and deck.

ASW. Picardie gets the standard T8 BB ASW which is 2 flights of 2 bombs (4200 dmg 24% fire) with 10km range. Lyon only has 2 flights of 1 bomb (3400 dmg 19% fire) with 8km range. This is obviously a big jump up in effectiveness against submarines, even given the fact that Picardie can face T10 subs.      

AA-suite. The "significantly worse" AA mentioned is the midrange, as Picardie lacks all the quad 40mm-Bofors tubs found on the Lyon. In fact, the 6km long-range aura on the Picardie is actually slightly stronger than Lyon's. Given that the midrange-AA only has limited utility in the current design of plane interactions, it would be misleading to label the difference as 'significant.' The biggest difference between the two is actually the matchmaking: Picardie has to face T10 carriers, which her AA-suite is in no way able to handle. 

2 hours ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

In several important respectives, Picardie is significantly worse than her T7 counterpart.

Other than the gunnery (and maybe the interactions against some carriers), I struggle to see how Picardie is "significantly worse." As you list yourself (and I have expanded upon above), the T8 has multiple advantages over her T7 counterpart that more than make up for these differences. 

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I would also recommend against taking the above-mentioned Youtuber too seriously -- he tends to rush his 'first impressions' videos in order to maximize their relevance/revenue, but at great cost to depth. It's become a predictable cycle at this point where he makes a 'ship = bad' first impressions video only to follow it up with 'ship = not as bad' video once he takes the time to actually understand the ship he was playing.   

[NMA101]

This is a bit unrelated to your main point, but would you consider Strasbourg to be in a bad state?

For some reason*, WG gave it the worst consumable cooldown time of any BB equipped with MBRB (180s), when the others have only 120s. It also has one of the worst detection ranges in its tier, despite having the second smallest caliber guns. 

*It was a Christmas/holiday reward ship in 2020, so that does track with WG's precedent of releasing bad ships for free. In fact, the ship was hit with the nerf hammer several times before release, and has not been changed since then, according to the WG wiki changelog. 

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Strasbourg

Edited November 22, 2023 by NMA101

[Yedwy]

The ship si crap because people developing the game only play it on their closed office test servers a bit and push the half baked stuff out the door, they have 0 idea about the ecosystem of WOWS live servers

[New_Jersey_prpr]

2 hours ago, NMA101 said:

This is a bit unrelated to your main point, but would you consider Strasbourg to be in a bad state?

I've tried her once and I think she's ok-ish, of course not as competitive as Jean Bart and Bourgogne at their respective tiers, but doesn't feel very painful when playing. If you really asked, I also think some extra buff (at Strasbourg's case it's also undo the nerfs WG gave her) would be very welcomed for her to make her more different from Dunkerque. (at the same time, make her more attractive for people looking for a new T7 premium battleship) To be honest, I won't consider buying her in armory for gold if I didn't get her for free at that new year event.

I think the ok-ish gameplay she provided, while only having limited improvements from her T6 sister, is mainly because of the ship design itself. Dunkerque class has decent speed and maneuverbility, the front gun design also helps a lot, so Strasbourg can still provide acceptable gameplay experience.

The prime example of "inferior ship design hammers gameplay experience", would be California. California has received more significant improvements when compared with Arizona/New Mexico, however the problem with her slow speed is amplified with battleships getting faster at T7. So many people are asking for California buffs.

The most confusing part of Picardie's case for me is that why Picardie has to make such sacrifice when being uptiered in the same fashion, even Dunkerque→Strasbourg is straight improvement, despite Strasbourg is considered inferior by many (as free gift during past new year's event, yes I still remember how people evaluated her at that time), that makes Picardie's nerfs very questionable.

Edited November 22, 2023 by New_Jersey_prpr

[Wolfswetpaws]

Personally, the glaring "weakness" of the Lyon and Picardie is their turret layout, which has only one turret in front of the superstructure.
Some may feel that is ideal for "kiting" and "flanking", but, even with 4 gun barrels in the one forward turret, I feel it lacks forward firepower.

As for the Strasbourg & Dunkerque comparison?
Personally, I feel the Strasbourg is a bit "squishy" for her match-making bracket. 
She has to be played intelligently to survive the threats while contributing to her team's success.
In comparision, I feel the Dunkerque is more comfortable within her matchmaking bracket.  Perhaps it's merely my feelings or perhaps there are real factors?

[Nevermore135]

5 hours ago, NMA101 said:

This is a bit unrelated to your main point, but would you consider Strasbourg to be in a bad state?

For some reason*, WG gave it the worst consumable cooldown time of any BB equipped with MBRB (180s), when the others have only 120s. It also has one of the worst detection ranges in its tier, despite having the second smallest caliber guns. 

*It was a Christmas/holiday reward ship in 2020, so that does track with WG's precedent of releasing bad ships for free. In fact, the ship was hit with the nerf hammer several times before release, and has not been changed since then, according to the WG wiki changelog. 

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Strasbourg

Every time I play her, I find myself thinking that WG gave her the wrong consumable. IMO, rather than MBRB she should have been given Engine Boost. She probably wouldn’t have been hit nearly as hard with the nerf bat either, as WG is wont to do when MBRB is involved.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Nevermore135

[ArIskandir]

8 hours ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

Then we got Strasbourg and Dunkerque, though the improvement is not that significant if compared with Jean Bart or Bourgogne, Strasbourg still got the following improvements when compared to Dunkerque

IDK, somehow that reads like Strasbourg is kinda better than Dunkerque... which is kinda wierd as Strasbourg is acknowledged by many as probably the worst T7 BB in the game, myself included. 

[New_Jersey_prpr]

17 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

IDK, somehow that reads like Strasbourg is kinda better than Dunkerque... which is kinda wierd as Strasbourg is acknowledged by many as probably the worst T7 BB in the game, myself included. 

Strasbourg is of course better than Dunkerque, one is T6 and one is T7, Strasbourg shouldn't be worse than Dunkerque in any way.

You should mean "Strasbourg at T7 is not as powerful as Dunkerque at T6", if that's your point then I agree with it as well.

[ArIskandir]

9 minutes ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

Strasbourg is of course better than Dunkerque, one is T6 and one is T7, Strasbourg shouldn't be worse than Dunkerque in any way.

You should mean "Strasbourg at T7 is not as powerful as Dunkerque at T6", if that's your point then I agree with it as well.

As you well point, what is relevant is the relative strenght of the ship in its own environment. Whatever improvements Strasbourg gets over Dunkerque, are overshadowed by the change in the environment, making her a much weaker ship for her tier. So, what's relevant is not just the overall stats but how they fit within its intended environment. 

[NMA101]

9 hours ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

Strasbourg is of course better than Dunkerque, one is T6 and one is T7, Strasbourg shouldn't be worse than Dunkerque in any way.

You should mean "Strasbourg at T7 is not as powerful as Dunkerque at T6", if that's your point then I agree with it as well.

I only play the Strasbourg in operations, and even in a scripted battle where you know all the enemies are, it still struggles. The French dispersion, low caliber (so less ability to overmatch) and bad concealment combine for a frustrating experience. 

[Sailor_Moon]

19 hours ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

When can WG stop over-nerfing their new ships?

They need to stop over-nerfing their ships, PERIOD. Both new AND old ships....

I mean, you'd think, right, that with all those deficits, Picardie would at LEAST have improved secondary accuracy to complement her extended secondary range. But nope. She's got standard dispersion there too. Frankly, the only good point about her is probably her alternate permacamo, which actually looks pretty decent. That's about it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[BOBTHEBALL]

This ship is so sad, while not as bad as people say she's horrible don't buy her and I hope you never get her in an SC!

[Sailor_Moon]

13 hours ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

The prime example of "inferior ship design hammers gameplay experience", would be California. California has received more significant improvements when compared with Arizona/New Mexico, however the problem with her slow speed is amplified with battleships getting faster at T7. So many people are asking for California buffs.

Agreed! And yet we've been literally gaslighted (because that's what that is, and I'm calling it out as such) into believing that California is somehow PERFECTLY balanced, the BEST balanced Tier VII battleship in all of freakin' WoWs. Moon forbid we ask for changes to make her remotely interesting.

Yeah, Ok Wargaming. Sure. /s

(by the by, I'd GLADLY eat my tiara if Cali's balance changes actually roll out or are in the dev pipeline, but since we have ZERO confirmation of any of that....well, it doesn't look good, I'll say that much :S)

Edited November 23, 2023 by Sailor_Moon

[Sailor_Moon]

19 hours ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

Of course naturally Wargaming trolls me and....

...Well, I can't complain, it's a VERY cheap price for a Premium ship. Bad or otherwise, it's gonna end up in my port for only 1500 doubloons 😛

[Wolfswetpaws]

Congratulations on your new Picardie, @Sailor_Moon.  🙂 

[Gaelic_knight]

26 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Congratulations on your new Picardie, @Sailor_Moon.  🙂 

ENGAGE !!!!!! TNG

 

[MATOmalchance]

The Picardie feels like it has an identity crisis. It doesn't know what it wants to be. Smaller guns but still bad accuracy and bad HE. Better secondary range but still bad accuracy. The speed is nothing special, the armor is nothing special... It really feels like a ship designed specifically to be bad and used as filler for lootboxes.

[New_Jersey_prpr]

3 hours ago, Sailor_Moon said:

Of course naturally Wargaming trolls me and....

...Well, I can't complain, it's a VERY cheap price for a Premium ship. Bad or otherwise, it's gonna end up in my port for only 1500 doubloons 😛

The only occasion this ship is well worth buying is here!😂

[Yedwy]

4 hours ago, Sailor_Moon said:

Of course naturally Wargaming trolls me and....

...Well, I can't complain, it's a VERY cheap price for a Premium ship. Bad or otherwise, it's gonna end up in my port for only 1500 doubloons 😛

Well 1500 she is worth one way or another

[Zaydin]

15 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

IDK, somehow that reads like Strasbourg is kinda better than Dunkerque... which is kinda wierd as Strasbourg is acknowledged by many as probably the worst T7 BB in the game, myself included. 

Worse than the California?

[Zaydin]

4 hours ago, Sailor_Moon said:

Of course naturally Wargaming trolls me and....

...Well, I can't complain, it's a VERY cheap price for a Premium ship. Bad or otherwise, it's gonna end up in my port for only 1500 doubloons 😛

My main gripe about this is that I would have absolutely bought the Liberation camo for the Marseille... if WG had let me buy it directly. Because they locked it behind gambling, however, I have zero intention of going for it.

[Project45_Opytny]

3 hours ago, New_Jersey_prpr said:

The only occasion this ship is well worth buying is here!😂

The same happened for me.

Yet even put the complete loss of faith in WG-Belgrade currently, I have Lyon, clad in 6th Anniversary permacamo and bonus, with a dedicated commander; Richelieu with dedicated commander; Gascogne exchanged in the 8th Anniversary as well as Champagne purchased with ~2 years worth of Premium Account Time, to the point that the 10-pointer French commander is considered as valuable as the ship herself.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

So has anyone tried a secondary build in Ranked?

The secondaries look like good fire starters with 25 degree angles and the guns could be quite dangerous at close range. HP pool, speed, gun angles and lack of torps don't really fit that playstyle, but I would still be interested if it works in a small environment like Ranked.

[tocqueville8]

Wow, the fire chance on her 305s is the same as on Charles Martel's 203s...🙄