Not even funny how much Wedgie hate cruisers.

[Andrewbassg]

For example let's take Mogami.

 

 

This would be my choice for PVP. But.....two of the 4 skills works against each  other. And  no skills could be  allotted towards survivability , let alone firepower.

Arguably one could give up on RPF but  .....that wouldn't  be my choice. And even if so..

.....still no utility, no survivability , no torps.....

Taking CE  is pretty much mandatory in PvP, not at all optiona given all the changes Wedgie implemented to appease  the babbies. And such a build goes directly  head to head with a PVE build.....

 

Just ......

[pepe_trueno]

16 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

For example let's take Mogami.

 

 

This would be my choice for PVP. But.....two of the 4 skills works against each  other. And  no skills could be  allotted towards survivability , let alone firepower.

Arguably one could give up on RPF but  .....that wouldn't  be my choice. And even if so..

.....still no utility, no survivability , no torps.....

Taking CE  is pretty much mandatory in PvP, not at all optiona given all the changes Wedgie implemented to appease  the babbies. And such a build goes directly  head to head with a PVE build.....

 

Just ......

not going to disagree in that cruiser skills are mediocre at best compare to DDs and BBs but why pick Top Grade Gunner and concealment expert and then complain they dont work with each other? they are ment to not work with each other. either you pick the lighthouse build (Heavy HE and SAP Shells + Top Grade Gunner ) or you pick the more defensive build concealment expert + Survivability Expert or super intendent.

[Verytis]

Why are you taking IFHE and gutting your fire chance?

Why are you taking TGG, a brawling oriented skill?

 

Obviously, you'd go max DPM build in PvE because you're fighting bots, not people.

In PvP you'd maximise your survival because people can actually recognise vulnerable targets.

Builds for the two modes have never aligned in priorities. You sound like you're suddenly expecting them to align.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Verytis

[Unlooky]

53 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

For example let's take Mogami.

 

 

This would be my choice for PVP. But.....two of the 4 skills works against each  other. And  no skills could be  allotted towards survivability , let alone firepower.

Arguably one could give up on RPF but  .....that wouldn't  be my choice. And even if so..

.....still no utility, no survivability , no torps.....

Taking CE  is pretty much mandatory in PvP, not at all optiona given all the changes Wedgie implemented to appease  the babbies. And such a build goes directly  head to head with a PVE build.....

 

Just ......

that's because you sacrificed your survivability in favor of your other skills. It seems fair that skills as powerful as RPF or TGG have tradeoffs, no? 

 

 

23 minutes ago, Verytis said:

Why are you taking IFHE and gutting your fire chance?

Mogami 155 pens 38mm with IFHE, enough to pen US BBs so it's actually worth it. 

[Andrewbassg]

20 minutes ago, pepe_trueno said:

why pick Top Grade Gunner and concealment expert and then complain they dont work with each other? they are ment to not work with each other

That's not the issue.

Look at those. You have 5 out of 6(!!!) 4 point skills which are all very good . And you have one which synergies very well with a 3 point skill.

Point me to the same level of synergy among cruiser skills (hint there is exactly none)

27 minutes ago, Verytis said:

Obviously, you'd go max DPM build in PvE because you're fighting bots, not people.

In PvP you'd maximise your survival because people can actually recognise vulnerable targets.

Builds for the two modes have never aligned in priorities. You sound like you're suddenly expecting them to align.

 I don't. But that's  not true for BB skills. And THAT'S the point.

 

28 minutes ago, Verytis said:

Why are you taking IFHE and gutting your fire chance?

 

Coz 155 mm Mogami?

[Andrewbassg]

8 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

that's because you sacrificed your survivability in favor of your other skills. It seems fair that skills as powerful as RPF or TGG have tradeoffs, no? 

No. Because babbies don't have the same issue, which makes my point.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Unlooky]

2 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

No. Because babbies don't have the same issue, which makes my point.

I'm a cruiser main myself and I'd argue that battleships require a significantly higher point build with much less flexibility.

 

Your average high tier cruiser is completely fine after 13 points: Expert Loader, Consumables Enhancements/Priority Target, Superintendent, Concealment Expert, and Adrenaline Rush. What you get after is pretty much up to you, as there aren't any other really mandatory skills. 

 

Meanwhile, on BBs, you almost always need all 21 points: 1 point of your choice, Grease the Gears, AR, Concealment Expert, Fire Prevention, and Emergency Repair Expert, then Basics of Survivability or Improved Repair Party Readiness. Playing a BB without any one of those 4 point skills is a noticeable and a suboptimal experience. It's even worse on secondary BBs like Schlieffen which quite literally needs all 21 points to function. 

The worst thing WG has done to cruiser mains is the proliferation of 30mm overmatch. Honestly I feel that cruisers got off the best with the captain rework out of ANY class, including subs and CVs. We got the lighthouse builds out of it and don't require 21 point builds.  

[TimurGlazkov]

Trade off and specialisaton.

If you want good thing at once, why even bother with a skill tree to begin with.

You have 24 skills in the cruiser tree (same number as BBs and DDs), but being a diverse class it's only natural that the skills are more diverse and less about synergy. But most boats still work, there's no need to make such a big deal about synergy and skill mirroring unless you're a poet or something.

14 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

No. Because babbies don't have the same issue, which males my point.

No? BBs that build for secondary or Heavy AP + Furious sarcrifice points that could have gone toward survivability, and the lack of just one 4pt survivability skill is huge. BBs by default almost always have some points for survivability because they're... battleships, they are meant to soak up damage and allow to out-trade enemy capital ships. It begins to sound like you're using "synergy" as some sort of excuse to complain that your cruisers can't be less punishable while dishing out ridiculous damage.

Edited November 17, 2023 by TimurGlazkov

[pepe_trueno]

9 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

No. Because babbies don't have the same issue, which makes my point.

half of those 4 points skills have conditions...

close quarter and manual secondary only work when within secondary range, thats only 10-12km on a dedicated secondary build on a game everyone and their dog is sniping from distance or will kite you to death on sight.

then we have furious that is great for memes but letting fire burns is far from ideal on a BB without zombie heal.

 

 

 

 

[Andrewbassg]

38 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

Your average high tier cruiser is completely fine after 13 points: Expert Loader, Consumables Enhancements/Priority Target, Superintendent, Concealment Expert, and Adrenaline Rush. What you get after is pretty much up to you, as there aren't any other really mandatory skills. 

 

That's because cruisers don't have proper skills to begin with.

 

38 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

a noticeable and a suboptimal experience. It's even worse on secondary BBs like Schlieffen which quite literally needs all 21 points to function. 

Really? 🙂 Comparatively to not being able to build into torps as an IJN cruiser? That isn't a "suboptimal experience" ? Also not being able to ..."properly function" ?

38 minutes ago, Unlooky said:

The worst thing WG has done to cruiser mains is the proliferation of 30mm overmatch. Honestly I feel that cruisers got off the best with the captain rework out of ANY class, including subs and CVs. We got the lighthouse builds out of it and don't require 21 point builds.  

Nah......Wedgie did a LOT to cruisers. IFHE rework, capt rework 1 &2, ec rework 1.&2  sub introduction ( I.e ASW )and most certainly didn't get off the best from neither of those.

A for Schlieffen.....just....lolz.....( remember, comparative to cruisers)

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[TimurGlazkov]

14 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

That's because cruisers don't have proper skills to begin with

I like how Expert Loader, Consumables Enhancements, Priority Target, Superintendent, Concealment Expert & Adrenaline Rush aren't proper cruiser skill. No, a flexible ship type such as cruiser have more general skills that can be fitted into more ships. Like how a Napoli and a HIV can both take TGG, Consumable Enhancement is vital for both smoke cruisers and radar cruisers, Outnumbered (while a bit underpowered) can be fitted on lighthouse build or small-team gamemode ships...

20 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Really? 🙂 Comparatively to not being able to build into torps as an IJN cruiser? That isn't a "suboptimal experience" ? Also not being able to ..."properly function" ?

Apparently Mogami (which can perform quite ok even with a 10pt commander) unable to build for torp is the end of the world compared stealthy brawling BBs not having FP despite having 21pt legendary commander.

You want to build for both gunpower and torpedo capablity on your cruiser while also having RPF and survivablity? And you're comparing your paper armour cruiser to literal tanking ship type and complaining about the disparity?

[Andrewbassg]

3 hours ago, TimurGlazkov said:

Trade off and specialisaton.

🙂  Like PVP vs PvE... but that's actually a good point because there is nowhere near the same level of diversity among any other class as among cruisers. Which SHOULD be reflected in the skill tree. 

 

Notice how many skills cant be used.

3 hours ago, TimurGlazkov said:

If you want good thing at once, why even bother with a skill tree to begin with.

So.... I'm at fault because Wedgie doesn't like cruisers. Noice.... ya know. there are  some concepts around called balance and fairness. Especially when we talk about interclass balance.

3 hours ago, TimurGlazkov said:

But most boats still work,

 Well.....if the metric is if one can push W.....indeed,  there is no need for the skill tree....

3 hours ago, TimurGlazkov said:

You have 24 skills in the cruiser tree (same number as BBs and DDs), but being a diverse class it's only natural that the skills are more diverse and less about synergy. But most boats still work, there's no need to make such a big deal about synergy and skill mirroring unless you're a poet or something.

3 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

indeed. Just take a look at the above screen and repeat that point....

 

3 hours ago, TimurGlazkov said:

No? BBs that build for secondary or Heavy AP + Furious sarcrifice points that could have gone toward survivability, and the lack of just one 4pt survivability skill is huge. BBs by default almost always have some points for survivability because they're... battleships, they are meant to soak up damage and allow to out-trade enemy capital ships.

I wonder who wants now all the goodie cookies  .

3 hours ago, TimurGlazkov said:

It begins to sound like you're using "synergy" as some sort of excuse to complain that your cruisers can't be less punishable while dishing out ridiculous damage.

Nah.....I'm pointing out just how much Wedgie dislikes cruisers and just how much is kewtowing to the "big guns go boom" crowd.

And i'm doing a pretty good job, I would say.

As for soaking up dmg.....remind me what Wedgie HAD to do, during the last asym battles, coz nobody wanted to play cruisers? Yeah there you go.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[YouSatInGum]

1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

For example let's take Mogami.

 

 

This would be my choice for PVP. But.....two of the 4 skills works against each  other. And  no skills could be  allotted towards survivability , let alone firepower.

Arguably one could give up on RPF but  .....that wouldn't  be my choice. And even if so..

.....still no utility, no survivability , no torps.....

Taking CE  is pretty much mandatory in PvP, not at all optiona given all the changes Wedgie implemented to appease  the babbies. And such a build goes directly  head to head with a PVE build.....

 

Just ......

I don't disagree that WG tends to shaft cruisers, not sure I agree with your why...

Taking TGG in a mogami is a little sus, since it's not often that you will get to use it and when you do that gain is only 8%.  I would absolutely, positively switch that with SE.  Also, at least for me personally... for cruisers that tend to be made of glass (most of IJN qualifies) I take IFA (incoming alert) and maybe even last stand for those days that RNG hates you.

I'd say the cruiser skill options are mediocre unless you are doing some sort of lighthouse build, which I don't recommend in PvP for any cruiser that doesn't have a heal or unless you have a div mate that smoke/spot for you.  I tried hard to make it work once with Mainz, and the problem was I was having to play so defensive/kitey that my moderate DPM increase was more than offset with lower battle impact I was having.  

.... for operations however.... lighthouse all the way....  I even do Atlanta as lighthousey as skills will allow...

[Wulf_Ace]

maybe I am dumb but why Radio location, I play Mogami at max range, so why do I need to know where DDs are? to torp them? to avoid their torps?

I find Radio location ussless for a range cruiser. Playing it like a torp cruiser with risking getting close is not that great, maybe later if there is no dds but then again you cant shoot, just use concealment.

[TimurGlazkov]

Ok I read through your counter argument and while i do think cruisers get the short end of the skill stick, I do not think it is anywhere near the severity as you are making it out to be. And then I look at your Edinburgh buld (I also have a dedicated 21pt commander for Edin)...

8 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

🙂  Like PVP vs PvE... but that's actually a good point because there is nowhere near the same level of diversity among any other class as among cruisers. Which SHOULD be reflected in the skill tree. 

 

Notice how many skills cant be used.

*what the doodle*, what are you doing picking TGG but not CE. Is this a coop build?

[Andrewbassg]

2 minutes ago, TimurGlazkov said:

I like how Expert Loader, Consumables Enhancements, Priority Target, Superintendent, Concealment Expert & Adrenaline Rush aren't proper cruiser skill

No, because those are mandatory skills. Without them cruisers are nothing more then just target practice. Hint Its not even about  functioning. You do remember, the fundamental difference between babbies and cruisers right? RIGHT? 

 

12 minutes ago, TimurGlazkov said:

Apparently Mogami (which can perform quite ok even with a 10pt commander) unable to build for torp is the end of the world compared stealthy brawling BBs not having FP despite having 21pt legendary commander.

You want to build for both gunpower and torpedo capablity on your cruiser while also having RPF and survivablity? And you're comparing your paper armour cruiser to literal tanking ship type and complaining about the disparity?

 

No. I would like to be able to properly choose between  those two, with some utility choice  in between. Babbies have one, single utility, as you pointed out yourself. Unlike cruisers.

 

20 minutes ago, TimurGlazkov said:

Given all the actions taken by Wedgie to disefranchise cruisers? Still....lets focus in the points on hand.

 

[Andrewbassg]

22 minutes ago, Wulf_Ace said:

maybe I am dumb but why Radio location, I play Mogami at max range, so why do I need to know where DDs are? to torp them? to avoid their torps?

I find Radio location ussless for a range cruiser. Playing it like a torp cruiser with risking getting close is not that great, maybe later if there is no dds but then again you cant shoot, just use concealment.

Ranked? And I wouldn't  call 15 ish km range. Ibuki you wanted to say, me thinks.

26 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

.... for operations however.... lighthouse all the way....  I even do Atlanta as lighthousey as skills will allow...

Yes. But then you can't use them in PvP, right? Arguably one would need TWO caps, also preferably 21 pointers. Aka ouch....

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Andrewbassg]

19 minutes ago, TimurGlazkov said:

Ok I read through your counter argument and while i do think cruisers get the short end of the skill stick, I do not think it is anywhere near the severity as you are making it out to b

Oh it is. And Its not just about me. I can play the survival game, but many people.... not really. While exploding hapless cruisers probably make great for memes, that has nothing to do with proper game development.

25 minutes ago, TimurGlazkov said:

And then I look at your Edinburgh buld (I also have a dedicated 21pt commander for Edin)...

*what the doodle*, what are you doing picking TGG but not CE. Is this a coop build?

 And yet....

On 11/14/2023 at 9:01 AM, Andrewbassg said:

Now that being said, I'm gonna be honest. Following this conversation....

.......I did played some more. And he is right and RN CL;'s used to be my most played line, also my go to reset line (still is) so I'm very familiar with the playstyle. And...

....buut..... make no mistake. it IS  misery. I have to pull everything, to make it work. The difference being the presence of the  possibility to do something, to make a difference.

 

Edin has decent concealment to begin with. But you absolutely wiil need all the smoke and heal you can put your hand on and as fast as possible.

You may disagree.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

23 minutes ago, TimurGlazkov said:

Is this a coop build?

Speaking as a co-op main, I wouldn't do without CE even against the bots.

2 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

And such a build goes directly  head to head with a PVE build.....

No, it doesn't. A randoms-ranked build is fine for co-op and operations. If you want to have your cake and eat it too, build a second captain for your Mogami.

[Wulf_Ace]

42 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Ranked? And I wouldn't  call 15 ish km range. Ibuki you wanted to say, me thinks.

Yes. But then you can't use them in PvP, right? Arguably one would need TWO caps, also preferably 21 pointers. Aka ouch....

 

Got hydro, I really dont see much use of radio location on it. Talking about random games.

[Andrewbassg]

13 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

If you want to have your cake and eat it too,

 That's what I was preaching to Wedgie, to no avail. Either you have a balanced game. or you have a perpetual meme generator.  Including them. 

[Andrewbassg]

2 minutes ago, Wulf_Ace said:

Got hydro, I really dont see much use of radio location on it. Talking about random games.

Yes. And that's how I built Ibuki.

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, YouSatInGum said:

Taking TGG in a mogami is a little sus, since it's not often that you will get to use it and when you do that gain is only 8%.  I would absolutely, positively switch that with SE.  Also, at least for me personally... for cruisers that tend to be made of glass (most of IJN qualifies) I take IFA (incoming alert) and maybe even last stand for those days that RNG hates you.

 

That's a good point, and that's why I took range on Sejong instead of reload. However in ranked, when one can get his hands on a lolibote....one needs all the dakka and fast. Not guaranteed when will one get a second chance.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Frostbow]

I only play Mogami now in the safe confines of Co-op or Operations, with a full lighthouse/full DPM build. The lack of Concealment Expert is really no big deal in Co-op or Operations, and can be easily solved through the judicious use of player skill. Moreover, the TGG and Heavy HE Shell skills complement each other in PVE so well that they are now a staple in all of my PVE captains.

But if I were to take the Mogami to PVP, my build would be entirely different.

That is where having a different commander, one that is exclusive for PVP, can prove to be handy, like in the case of my Napoli and Napoli B. We just can't have the best of both worlds at the same time, although there are builds that can reduce the difference between PVE and PVP builds. And while I have spare captains that can be assigned a skill set specific for PVP, I would defer making such decisions until there is a pressing need.

 

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

For example let's take Mogami.

 

 

This would be my choice for PVP. But.....two of the 4 skills works against each  other. And  no skills could be  allotted towards survivability , let alone firepower.

Arguably one could give up on RPF but  .....that wouldn't  be my choice. And even if so..

.....still no utility, no survivability , no torps.....

Taking CE  is pretty much mandatory in PvP, not at all optiona given all the changes Wedgie implemented to appease  the babbies. And such a build goes directly  head to head with a PVE build.....

 

Just ......

Perhaps it's just me, but I use a slightly different skill build.
For the 1 point skills, I'd take "Last Stand" first, and Grease the Gears could be acquired with left-over points or when a Captain has gained 11 skill points.
For the 2 points skills, I'd use the torpedo reload skill first.  But, I can understand the improved fire chance you've chosen, which is more likely to be utilized in a PVP environment.
For the 3 point skills, I'd take the improved secondary-battery skill or Superintendent for extra consumable charges, depending upon intended sailing environment (fast PVE or more drawn-out PVP).
For the 4 point skills, I'd take Concealment Expert first.  I've no quarrrel with the choice of IFHE, especially if one is using the improved fire chance as a 2 point skill, because then one is building a "fyre-wrym" 🔥 ship at that point.  That said, this is where the "skills working against each other" phenomena that you mentioned comes in to play.
So, if going for fires, don't use the IFHE skill and switch to something else that supports your intended purpose, or accept that IFHE offers more opportunity for normal damage and the 2 point skill mitigates the reduction in fire-setting chances.  

Personally, I don't use Adrenaline Rush.  I spend the points elsewhere. 
I accept that I am in the minority with this philosphy, but I've done the math and don't feel it is worth it for me.

So, I've outlined a build concept that uses 10, or 11 or perhaps 15 skill points. 
More points are welcome, of course, but then a person really has to decide what is their intended play-style concept for the ship.  🙂