HSF Pricing and wisdom of choices... (Probably of most use to newbies)

[Verblonde]

Well, the HSF stuff is available again, and I noticed something mildly striking:

The newer Harekaze is more expensive than the OG version. Warning for newbies: the old phrase 'you get what you pay for' might give you the impression that the newer one is better.

Short version: she ain't!

Marginally longer version: although you get smoke/Hydro with Harekaze II, her guns are all manner of dreadful (and you don't get the choices that you do with the original Harekaze); the original Harekaze is - IMO - a *lot* better.

So, for most people, if you want to get your weeb on, Harekaze is a far better choice than Harekaze II.

[Wolfswetpaws]

33 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

So, for most people, if you want to get your weeb on, Harekaze is a far better choice than Harekaze II.

+1
I have both, and like them (each for different reasons).
But, if you only have to pick one, the HSF Harekaze is more fun to play and offers more versatility.  The orange cat camouflage is cute, too.  🙂 
 

[Verblonde]

34 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The orange cat camouflage is cute, too.

Indubitably!

[kriegerfaust]

i had a ginger cat for 19 years, i think i am in love 😍

only it needs a full white belly

Edited November 16, 2023 by kriegerfaust

[Zerstoerherr]

There goes my hope to purchase Harekaze I with dubloons from ranked a SC. I don't know why I thought that they might sell it as a single ship for dubloons, that would be actually a normal move, not a complete cash grab. Was really looking forward to that ship, looks like Akizuki with worse guns and better torps, something that seems ideal to me and my playstyle.

[Wulf_Ace]

8 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

+1
I have both, and like them (each for different reasons).
But, if you only have to pick one, the HSF Harekaze is more fun to play and offers more versatility.  The orange cat camouflage is cute, too.  🙂 
 

so why Harekaze is good anyway?

[Admiral_Karasu]

21 minutes ago, Wulf_Ace said:

so why Harekaze is good anyway?

It's the camo, obviously.

[Wulf_Ace]

16 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

It's the camo, obviously.

no really why? guns, torps?

[ReDiR20]

Bought everything in Azur Lane and ARP events recently, so probably just gonna get whole a package with 10% additional coupon. 

But original Harekaze is definitely a highlight here. One of hulls is basically just a premium Kagero, while other 2 are quite different from other T8 DDs.

[Nevermore135]

1 hour ago, Wulf_Ace said:

so why Harekaze is good anyway?

HSF Harekaze is unique in that she has three different hull modules that all have different guns on the stock Kagero hull. The widespread consensus is that the B hull option is the standout, as it replaces the three twin 127mm turrets with three of the 100mm DP turrets found on Akizuki.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Nevermore135

[Ensign Cthulhu]

37 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

as it replaces the three twin 127mm turrets with three of the 100mm DP turrets found on Akizuki.

Bear in mind, however, that while they are Akizuki guns, they still only have Kagero range. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as it means you can go dark easier once your target is dead. It also means you can swat fighters put over you for spotting, but you have to be careful because your AA range is now greater than your detectability by air (unlike Kagero) and you have to consciously switch it off if you want to stay dark to aircraft for as long as possible. 

Otherwise she's literally Kagero, right down to being able to take torpedo reload booster instead of smoke. 

10 hours ago, Verblonde said:

So, for most people, if you want to get your weeb on, Harekaze is a far better choice than Harekaze II.

This absolutely. 

A few years ago, I'd have said that OG Harekaze was a must-buy. That's changed, since freemium Hayate does much the same thing two tiers higher with 5-inch guns (and now she's available at a reasonable coal price instead of an exorbitant FXP price), but the Kagero hull is still the stealthiest in her MM spread (Hayate's visible at 6.1km) and some people know how to abuse the hell out of that. 

[Nevermore135]

11 hours ago, Verblonde said:

The newer Harekaze is more expensive than the OG version.

WG is highly reluctant to change prices on existing older content, either to encourage sales of older, less popular content or to account for inflation (the IRL kind). I suspect it ties into their apparent fear of making long-time players feel their content has been “devalued.” It’s likely that WG simply decided on a different price for the later ship depending on her development cost at the time.

[Admiral_Karasu]

5 hours ago, Zerstoerherr said:

There goes my hope to purchase Harekaze I with dubloons from ranked a SC. I don't know why I thought that they might sell it as a single ship for dubloons, that would be actually a normal move, not a complete cash grab. Was really looking forward to that ship, looks like Akizuki with worse guns and better torps, something that seems ideal to me and my playstyle.

I had a look at the Harekaze I bundle. It doesn't look that bad as far as bundles go, it's the ship, the port slot, and combat missions for XP and HSF containers.

[Jakob Knight]

Well, here's a question.  Is there any other IJN DD with hydro?  If a player was maining IJN and wanted a Sub hunter, is there another option?  

[Admiral_Karasu]

4 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

Well, here's a question.  Is there any other IJN DD with hydro?  If a player was maining IJN and wanted a Sub hunter, is there another option?  

Hmm... but does anyone really start hunting the subs with a DD? Hydro or otherwise.

[Verblonde]

33 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

Is there any other IJN DD with hydro?

Not that I can think of, but - as @Admiral_Karasu points out - DDs are bloody awful sub hunters, even with hydro.

To make significant use of Harekaze II's smoke/hydro combination, your torp kung fu needs to be extremely strong as the guns are so ineffectual most of the time. That's not to say that H2 is entirely worthless, but rather she is most useful when you have team-mates (ideally on voice comms) who can make the most of what you're doing in the way of vision control, as your own ability to damage opponents is largely limited to the torps the bulk of the time.

[Jakob Knight]

4 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Not that I can think of, but - as @Admiral_Karasu points out - DDs are bloody awful sub hunters, even with hydro.

To make significant use of Harekaze II's smoke/hydro combination, your torp kung fu needs to be extremely strong as the guns are so ineffectual most of the time. That's not to say that H2 is entirely worthless, but rather she is most useful when you have team-mates (ideally on voice comms) who can make the most of what you're doing in the way of vision control, as your own ability to damage opponents is largely limited to the torps the bulk of the time.

 

Well, I never considered the Kagero to be a DD you wanted to use your guns with in the first place.  If you aren't good with torpedoes and do guns as your primary weapon choice, you'd go with Akizuki and not the various Kageros.

 

And, I consider DDs to be excellent Sub hunters, most especially stealthy DDs because the Sub won't spot you by periscope or visual contact without being spotted in return and in weapons range.  Hydro DDs are the ships I most fear when I'm in a Sub because there is no escaping them and only a marginal chance of avoiding them.

 

 

 

[Admiral_Karasu]

42 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

 Hydro DDs are the ships I most fear when I'm in a Sub because there is no escaping them and only a marginal chance of avoiding them.

 

🤔

[Verblonde]

5 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

I never considered the Kagero to be a DD you wanted to use your guns with in the first place.

Er, you may be Doing it Wrong then: although Kagero (including all the various sisters) guns are slow firing, they do have excellent alpha and decent ballistics - the trick is to time their use carefully, so that you only break stealth at a time when being spotted isn't going to get you blown out of the water by return fire.

FWIW, before I quit Randoms, something like a quarter of my Kagero kills were with guns, and it's more like half for Asashio. I'm not a particularly good player though; I gather better ones manage rather more than that...

 

5 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

I consider DDs to be excellent Sub hunters, most especially stealthy DDs because the Sub won't spot you by periscope or visual contact without being spotted in return and in weapons range.

I also feel moved to disagree with this vehemently: the sneakiest DDs in the game come in at 5.4 km surface detection (Kagero sisters, plus some lower tier things like Kami and her siblings); unless the submarine is an idiot, it'll be at periscope depth when approaching, generally giving it a detection distance just north of 2 km. In that situation, the DD will almost certainly be spotted first (and fired on by the opposing surface fleet, unless they're idiots or sunk already). Assuming the DD hasn't already been scragged by the opposing surface fleet and/or the submarine's torpedoes, it's *still* got to effectively run right over the submarine in order to DC the thing.

Basically, outside of Coop, that's a pants ASW platform!

Edited November 16, 2023 by Verblonde

[BigHeadShrimp]

Does it worth to get the Harekaze if you already have Akizuki?

[Verblonde]

17 minutes ago, BigHeadShrimp said:

Does it worth to get the Harekaze if you already have Akizuki?

I personally think so, but I have no aversion to having an abundance of premium ships; Harekaze does give something distinct, compared to both Aki and Kagero:

• Harekaze comes with a full torp loadout (stock Kagero, from memory?).
• Your dakka is good, although only three turrets, and - as @Ensign Cthulhu points out - your range is shorter.
• You can take TRB or smoke, but not both.
• Harekaze is a lot less robust than Aki, but you're also sneakier (5.4 km).
• Harekaze has much less bad AA than Kagero (but possibly worse than Aki - I'm a bit hazy here though), but - again per EC - you have to remember to switch it off when not needed.
• Of course, you get all the usual premium ship benefits with Harekaze.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

6 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

Well, I never considered the Kagero to be a DD you wanted to use your guns with in the first place. 

Not with the standard guns, no, but the 100mm option gives Harekaze a bit of bite that's not otherwise there. 

[Nevermore135]

1 hour ago, BigHeadShrimp said:

Does it worth to get the Harekaze if you already have Akizuki?

Akizuki is a sluggish gunboat DD, in many ways playing more like a very small cruiser without a citadel than a destroyer, yet alone a Japanese DD.

HSF Harekaze is a stock Kagero with 3/4 of Akizuki’s DPM. She’s a Japanese torpedo boat that can bloody the nose of other DDs when advantageous/required - she has a respectable 144k HE DPM (with the 100mm guns, of course) combined with concealment (5.4km) and short firing range (9.4km) that largely allow her to pick her engagements and drop out of detection fairly easily if one positions well. She doesn’t have the health (she only has 13300 base HP, so you don’t want to be stuck exchanging fire with other DDs in a fair fight), firing range, or DPM to fulfill a true gunboat role like Akizuki.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Nevermore135

[Jakob Knight]

4 hours ago, Verblonde said:

Er, you may be Doing it Wrong then: although Kagero (including all the various sisters) guns are slow firing, they do have excellent alpha and decent ballistics - the trick is to time their use carefully, so that you only break stealth at a time when being spotted isn't going to get you blown out of the water by return fire.

FWIW, before I quit Randoms, something like a quarter of my Kagero kills were with guns, and it's more like half for Asashio. I'm not a particularly good player though; I gather better ones manage rather more than that...

 

 

 

I'm not saying don't use the guns, only that the Kageros aren't built for relying on them.  You have to use your torpedoes if you want to be successful in that kind of DD, or you should be looking for another DD better suited to gunplay.  I often use the guns on my IJN torpedo destroyer, but they are, as you said, for when your stealth is going to be lost anyway or the effect would be worth the return fire.

 

4 hours ago, Verblonde said:

 

I also feel moved to disagree with this vehemently: the sneakiest DDs in the game come in at 5.4 km surface detection (Kagero sisters, plus some lower tier things like Kami and her siblings); unless the submarine is an idiot, it'll be at periscope depth when approaching, generally giving it a detection distance just north of 2 km. In that situation, the DD will almost certainly be spotted first (and fired on by the opposing surface fleet, unless they're idiots or sunk already). Assuming the DD hasn't already been scragged by the opposing surface fleet and/or the submarine's torpedoes, it's *still* got to effectively run right over the submarine in order to DC the thing.

Basically, outside of Coop, that's a pants ASW platform!

 

If a Sub is at Periscope Depth, it won't spot the DD until it enters its air detection range, which on a typical Kagero is 2.8 km with Concealment System Mod 1 (anyone -not- going to install that on this ship?), and 2.5 km if the commander has Concealment Expert.  At Periscope Depth, the S-189 (the stealthiest Sub at T8) will be detected at 2.0 km (it's own air detection range).  That means the Sub has 0.5 km on a closing course before it's detected by the DD, which works out to about 2 seconds.  Even if it dives, it will be detected before it can make a depth change, and will still be detected a 2.0 km until it reaches full submergence depth.  Should the DD have hydro, even that won't conceal it.  For comparison, the U-190 will be detected at 2.1 km, and the Salmon at 2.2 km, reducing the reaction time of those Subs by that much more.

 

And, the DD isn't the only one facing the fire from the opposing fleet unless they are idiots or sunk already.  Every friendly ship in range will be dropping area-of-effect air depth charges on a precisely spotted Sub.  Assuming it survives that, the DD is on top of it in a few seconds, and the depth charges add to the pain and misery of the Sub that can, at best, make a speed of 20 or less knts once it even completes a turn in the face of the DD that is on top of it, or by trying to blow past the DD and just hope the multiple hits don't spell its death.

 

So, perhaps you might want to rethink your position?

 

  

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jakob Knight

[Verblonde]

7 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

So, perhaps you might want to rethink your position?

Nope, although I think I may have misunderstood the submarine (at periscope depth) - ship spotting distances. Thanks for the explanation of the latter.

No change to my position though due to the fact that submarines can dive and entirely escape detection, while DDs can't. The advantage at the edge of contact is still with the submarines, assuming the rest of the team is awake - all that giving me a better understanding of the submarine spotting mechanics does is make the distances smaller.