On the true extent of player ignorance

[HMS_Kilinowski]

Yesterday I had a bit of an epiphany. I had my best T8-battle ever, yet it turned into a close loss. Needless to say, I was disappointed in the outcome. Like so many of us, I was seeking to blame my team mates, which, according to the MM-monitor, were ~48% on average (excluding me). I converted the replay, to show my clan mates how bravely I had fought and then extracted the player builds to the ShipBuilder App.

Then it hit me like a truck cause 9 out of my 11 team mates hadn't mounted all the modules on their ships. In fact 3 or 4 didn't even have any modules mounted on their ships. The remaining two players had very questionable modules mounted (secondary built North Carolina and Consumable-Mod Ragnarok).

The commander builds weren't much better. Good news: All of them had a commander. Bad news: The commanders ranged from 3 points to 10 points, the Ragnarok being an outlier with 14 points, but then again also played by a 52%er. Even the ones with 10 points or more didn't use CE, not even the DD. Mind you, we're not talking about a team of 40%ers, who mark the bottom end of the skill dispersion, but, as initially mentioned, 48% account winrate on average. To sum it up: None of my 11 team mates had anything close to the recommended build.

I don't know if we ever discussed that, at least I wasn't aware of the extent of ignorance. I get that not all players immediately search for best builds for their ships on the internet, and certainly only a fraction knows at least about the Captain Builds Document. Yet I'm still puzzled. Wouldn't it be especially casual to just adapt the recommended builds and not have to spend any time on making choices? Even Wargaming has somewhat done their job by now to make good builds easy and accessible, by releasing the "How it works"-videos and marking recommended modules and skills.

How can that many players not care about their builds and I mean not just to the extent of not having the optimum build, but to have tier 3 builds on tiers 6-8 or nothing at all? Has it always been like that or is that some new mentality? Is there anything more that can be done to overcome this ignorance and if so, what should be done? Where did it all go wrong? Let me know your thoughts.

Edited November 3, 2023 by HMS_Kilinowski

[invicta2012]

Credit shortages (this is the area of the economy which has been squeezed hardest IMHO) and they just don't know / don't see the point. I can sympathise with this to some extent - I realised I haven't mounted a signal flag on anything for months, the gains being just too marginal to bother. Sometimes I've been really lazy and gone into a game with no flags, modules and skipper and (even if I know the ship well) - and I can say that the first is optional, but the last two really aren't, and anyone going into a PVE or Op game without having them present and optimised is really letting the side down.  

[Jakob Knight]

When a player is grinding their commander or the ship in question, they will not have a moderately skilled captain and/or all modules/upgrades on their ship.  They are playing to -get- those, and so they will appear non-optimized in light of the endpoint of that progression.  Also, players in general don't go looking for meta builds, but those they think they want to run on their ship.  I never have gone to any website to decide how to outfit my ship, but gone with my own evaluation of the ship and what I want it to do.

 

The only ignorance from players that can be reliably measured during a battle are their actions.  A player who sits in smoke and ignores a salvo of torpedoes spotted with enough time to evade them shows an ignorance regardless of any factors that might mitigate it, and so can be reasonably termed ignorant with confidence.

 

 

[Arcus_Aesopi]

6 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

How can that many players not care about their builds and I mean not just to the extent of not having the optimum build, but to have tier 3 builds on tiers 6-8 or nothing at all? Has it always been like that or is that some new mentality? Is there anything more that can be done to overcome this ignorance and if so, what should be done? Where did it all go wrong? Let me know your thoughts.

I'm not sure you can blame the "players" since the developers appear to care more about the Premium Shop and Armory than making the game enjoyable in randoms.  When one adds subs (or any other unbalanced mess) as they are currently implemented, it's easy to assume that the quality of the gaming experience isn't at the forefront of the developers' minds.

Enjoy co-op!  

[Ensign Cthulhu]

47 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Credit shortages

This.

48 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

this is the area of the economy which has been squeezed hardest IMHO

I'm not really sure it has. I've pushed my credit balance higher in the last six months than it's ever been - where I previously used to struggle to keep it above 20 million, I'm north of 130 million right now and will quite possibly stay that way. The secret has been to defer high-tier ship purchases until I've got plenty in hand, and "plenty" just kept on getting higher and higher. 

WOWS's major credit problem is that it's become grossly, disproportionately easier to generate ship XP than it is to earn credits, a problem that started with Dragon flags and super-powerful XP camos and has continued now with blue and red boosters. On top of this is the issue of Snowflakes (both anniversary and Christmas), which for all the good they do in terms of giving out stuff, also disincentivize selling ships that you are done with. Before Snowflakes, I used to keep track of my ships' earnings and only sell them when the sale price plus the nett earnings exceeded the credits I'd spent to buy, equip and (as it then stood) put a commander in them at reduced retraining cost (they since made that free).

On the PLUS side, premium consumables were eliminated some time ago - all consumables were made premium at no cost - and that eliminated another quite significant credit drain. 

The real problem is people who don't know how to run a budget, such that they are getting so squeezed out they are running bare-bones in the manner the OP describes.

[Justin_Simpleton]

53 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

When a player is grinding their commander or the ship in question, they will not have a moderately skilled captain and/or all modules/upgrades on their ship.  They are playing to -get- those, and so they will appear non-optimized in light of the endpoint of that progression.

This so true.  I have tier 10 ships with low skilled captains because it takes so long to earn skill points.  I also have a couple 21pt. commanders stuck on TT tier 10 ships that earn so few elite commander XP because I play so badly.  I should have put them on tier 7 or 8 where I earn a lot more credits and xp.  It costs a lot to move those commanders around to correct my error.

[Asym]

31 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

This.

...

The real problem is people who don't know how to run a budget, such that they are getting so squeezed out they are running bare-bones in the manner the OP describes.

Yeah, it's the game economy mechanics in a lot of ways !   I'd hate to be a new player today.

And, I really kind of think there are a lot of players who really, have just given up the grind or pay or buy part of this game and play the game "as it is right now...."  I know several of our RO crew that simply play what they have as it is....  No serious thought to "model their ships to a meta point of best practices..."  I really haven't flow a flag in RO's in months.  If there is a CPT skill tree change, I don't think I will ever tinker with it at all......and, if I do, it will only be for the 12 ships I use daily or in RO's....

I could be wrong and much of what you posted is where I think we are.....

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

I would also point out to the OP that MOST PEOPLE in this game play it for memes and giggles, NOT for fun or performance.

The credit shortage economy and people not understanding how to budget is a big part of the LACK of resources...but the non-standard build set is because people don't treat the game as anything more than a laugh generator...which, given how it is balanced and developed...is substantially correct.

The opening poster is the outlier here.

[Project45_Opytny]

I wonder how laugh is generated from one's own subpar performance caused by oneself's suboptimal, if not flat out erroneous choice of upgrades and commander skills that in turn handicaps oneself in battle.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

18 minutes ago, Asym said:

I'd hate to be a new player today.

I compare it to what it was like when I started and I see all those premium ships available for free, far more things that are co-op accessible... To me, things are much improved.

[Type_93]

2 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

Like so many of us, I was seeking to blame my team mates, which, according to the MM-monitor, were ~48% on average (excluding me). I converted the replay, to show my clan mates how bravely I had fought and then extracted the player builds to the ShipBuilder App.

I just don’t get the whole “blame my team mates” line of thinking. Why you go to all that trouble of data mining all that on your teammates from a loss? You have really nice stats, but going to that extent to brag to your clan mates about how bad others are is pretty sad man. Most players are prolly just working up the lines and are credit poor like others have stated. We all know people can play poorly, but you acting all high and mighty makes you seem like not such a great player.  

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

17 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

I wonder how laugh is generated from one's own subpar performance caused by oneself's suboptimal, if not flat out erroneous choice of upgrades and commander skills that in turn handicaps oneself in battle.

They are not like you. Simple as that.

[MrWastee]

2 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

[...]

How can that many players not care about their builds and I mean not just to the extent of not having the optimum build, but to have tier 3 builds on tiers 6-8 or nothing at all?

--> in maccie voice, "kids, casualties and boomers"

 

Has it always been like that

--> yep

or is that some new mentality?

--> nope

 

Is there anything more that can be done to overcome this ignorance

--> a perfect society lol. so, nope.

and if so, what should be done?

....*german vibes intensifying .........

 

Where did it all go wrong?

--> creation

 

Let me know your thoughts.

..... it's not cake..... really

 

*expand for answers

Edited November 3, 2023 by MrWastee

[Aragathor]

2 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

How can that many players not care about their builds and I mean not just to the extent of not having the optimum build, but to have tier 3 builds on tiers 6-8 or nothing at all?

What exactly is WG doing to educate the players about the optimal builds? Yeah, thought so.

PS: I'm really holding myself back, from posting the vid of a perfect summary to WGs attitude towards educating players. It's NSFL.

[HMS_Kilinowski]

3 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Credit shortages (this is the area of the economy which has been squeezed hardest IMHO) and they just don't know / don't see the point. I can sympathise with this to some extent - I realised I haven't mounted a signal flag on anything for months, the gains being just too marginal to bother. Sometimes I've been really lazy and gone into a game with no flags, modules and skipper and (even if I know the ship well) - and I can say that the first is optional, but the last two really aren't, and anyone going into a PVE or Op game without having them present and optimised is really letting the side down.  

Why would there be credit shortages. You earn credits with every battle. If you don't have the credits to fully purchase and outfit the next ship in line, that may be a sign, that you are grinding too fast. Getting the necessary XP to unlock the next ship is but a minimum requirement. By no means do you have actually play this new ship asap. I always felt the possibility to play ships after a few battles was more for experienced players who have acquired the necessary credits playing other lines or favorite ships for hundreds of battles, and now can just zip through a new line.

 

2 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

When a player is grinding their commander or the ship in question, they will not have a moderately skilled captain and/or all modules/upgrades on their ship.  They are playing to -get- those, and so they will appear non-optimized in light of the endpoint of that progression.  Also, players in general don't go looking for meta builds, but those they think they want to run on their ship.  I never have gone to any website to decide how to outfit my ship, but gone with my own evaluation of the ship and what I want it to do.

 

The only ignorance from players that can be reliably measured during a battle are their actions.  A player who sits in smoke and ignores a salvo of torpedoes spotted with enough time to evade them shows an ignorance regardless of any factors that might mitigate it, and so can be reasonably termed ignorant with confidence.

I'm not a native speaker. I meant the term ignorance in its property of not knowing or wanting to know, not of ignoring known knowledge. As such the term applies to the situation described in the OP.

I understand the concept of grinding a commander. I don't get, why you would want to start with 3 or 6 points. You can easily acquire some EliteCXP to skip the first couple of points and have a commander suitable to the tier standard. Also, as mentioned earlier, you can take your time and grind at a slower pace, which will also benefit your understanding of the tier and its meta. I doubt players want to keep every ship they play. Usually they take a commander up the tiers andretrain it to the new ship, until they find a keeper, at which point they will start training a new commander.

Your remarks also indicate that players are not familiar with the best practice of grinding commanders, since the way you describe is bound to handicap your play significantly.

 

2 hours ago, Arcusaesopi said:

I'm not sure you can blame the "players" since the developers appear to care more about the Premium Shop and Armory than making the game enjoyable in randoms.  When one adds subs (or any other unbalanced mess) as they are currently implemented, it's easy to assume that the quality of the gaming experience isn't at the forefront of the developers' minds.

Enjoy co-op!  Those players that don't care are the players you want to see... they won't be in your way as much 🙂

I fail to see the connection. Please clarify why a developer's interest in sales is preventing people from using free tutorials and web-ressources on informing themselves about suitable builds. WG has made the changes to highlight good builds and the tutorials recently. This contradicts your idea of them only caring about the premium shop. Especially, that would mean they cared less about players in earlier years, where they didn't bother making such tutorials and now they start caring. So people should not have been interested in builds in 2016 to 2019, when in fact people made topics about that and when we had the Shipcomrade-database. Yet now, that info is readily available, they stop being interested. That is some wild theory.

 

1 hour ago, Asym said:

Yeah, it's the game economy mechanics in a lot of ways !   I'd hate to be a new player today.

And, I really kind of think there are a lot of players who really, have just given up the grind or pay or buy part of this game and play the game "as it is right now...."  I know several of our RO crew that simply play what they have as it is....  No serious thought to "model their ships to a meta point of best practices..."  I really haven't flow a flag in RO's in months.  If there is a CPT skill tree change, I don't think I will ever tinker with it at all......and, if I do, it will only be for the 12 ships I use daily or in RO's....

I could be wrong and much of what you posted is where I think we are.....

I don't see what could be so bad about being a new player today. In the old days I paid up to 88k credits for premium consumables, which WG at some point gave to everybody for free. The grinds on mid tiers were longer and have been shortened a couple of years ago, which seems to backfire now from what I read here. If anything, playing has become cheaper and more sustainable even at minimal effort. Ship modules were half prices at times. Even the modules of a T9-ship cost less than 7M credits, less than 3.5M on sales. For a ship people are keeping, since they are grinding new commander, as somebody here says, that is a low investment.

 

1 hour ago, Project45_Opytny said:

I wonder how laugh is generated from one's own subpar performance caused by oneself's suboptimal, if not flat out erroneous choice of upgrades and commander skills that in turn handicaps oneself in battle.

Everybody has to decide for themselves, what they do with that knowledge. I just felt it was fair to let you know. Since I was unaware of the level of ignorance, in return it is reasonable to assume, the ignorant are unaware of the level of optimum builds possible. They don't know this perspective, so it's only fair to let them know, cause that is usually how ignorance ends, by a knowing person noticing the ignorance and informing those concerned.

 

58 minutes ago, Type_93 said:

I just don’t get the whole “blame my team mates” line of thinking. Why you go to all that trouble of data mining all that on your teammates from a loss? You have really nice stats, but going to that extent to brag to your clan mates about how bad others are is pretty sad man. Most players are prolly just working up the lines and are credit poor like others have stated. We all know people can play poorly, but you acting all high and mighty makes you seem like not such a great player.  

You misunderstood. I was highlighting my play to my clan mates. The analysis of the team was a separate step, cause I was curious and wanted to understand. I didn't really expect to find anything. I had always been under the impression that bad players especially are pulling all the stops, to gain some advantages without having to put effort into the game. Turns out, I was wrong.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by HMS_Kilinowski

[HMS_Kilinowski]

24 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

What exactly is WG doing to educate the players about the optimal builds? Yeah, thought so.

PS: I'm really holding myself back, from posting the vid of a perfect summary to WGs attitude towards educating players. It's NSFL.

 You mean the "pick a ship and press battle"-video? Yeah, that was sad.

But they are marking recommended skills and modules and 90% of the time they get it right. We didn't have those, when we started with the game and still we managed to get it right. Maybe I watched a Flamuu review, at the end of which he usually showed his entire build. That helped me as a newb. Also Shipcomrade was a good source.

But now we got official recommendations in the game. How much easier can you make it for people? It's like when my mother was cutting the crust off my bread and cut the bread into small squares, when I was 3-4 years old. We got shiny videos. Outfitting your ship has become brainlessly easy.

Edited November 3, 2023 by HMS_Kilinowski

[Yedwy]

I often play without modules esp when farmin navals and some task that needs some obscure ship/nation combo I dont usually play and guess what I mostly get top 3 on the board despite that

[Jakob Knight]

5 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

 

 

I'm not a native speaker. I meant the term ignorance in its property of not knowing or wanting to know, not of ignoring known knowledge. As such the term applies to the situation described in the OP.

I understand the concept of grinding a commander. I don't get, why you would want to start with 3 or 6 points. You can easily acquire some EliteCXP to skip the first couple of points and have a commander suitable to the tier standard. Also, as mentioned earlier, you can take your time and grind at a slower pace, which will also benefit your understanding of the tier and its meta. I doubt players want to keep every ship they play. Usually they take a commander up the tiers andretrain it to the new ship, until they find a keeper, at which point they will start training a new commander.

Your remarks also indicate that players are not familiar with the best practice of grinding commanders, since the way you describe is bound to handicap your play significantly.

 

 

 

There are factors none of us can know short of asking the player in question.  Perhaps the ship in question is not one they consider important and don't want to devote points and commanders they need for other ships that are.  Perhaps they really don't have the credits or XP to bring their unit up to spec.  Perhaps they are just as ignorant as you assume.  Without information gained at the source, all you have is estimation and assumption that may have other causes.

 

While many of us will put aside the resources to play a ship at full effectiveness when we acquire it, others may not have those resources at that time, or decide that particular ship is not worth the investment.

 

Finally, believe it or not, the upgrades and commanders skills actually account for only a minor amount of a units performance in most cases.  The actions and choices of the player and the situation they find themselves in account for much more.

 

 

[Nevermore135]

After the commander skill rework, CXP became the true grind in WoWs. Players will bring the captains that they have, and a lot of players simply aren’t concerned with having some minimum “required” level captain or “optimized” commander to play shooty-boats. Add in the fact that in a lot of cases the WG recommended commander skills are either lazily applied to an entire line (all tech tree UK BBs recommend Furious, for example, not just those with super heals) or of questionable value (for example, recommending DE on heavy cruisers with 17+% base fire chance) and it’s not surprising that there are lots of “suboptimal” or “bad” commander load outs floating around. WG is apparently going to revise commander skill recommendations with the upcoming changes, so I’m curious if they will put more effort into this round of recommendations than the current one. 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Nevermore135

[MnemonScarlet]

3 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

How can that many players not care about their builds and I mean not just to the extent of not having the optimum build, but to have tier 3 builds on tiers 6-8 or nothing at all? Has it always been like that or is that some new mentality? Is there anything more that can be done to overcome this ignorance and if so, what should be done? Where did it all go wrong? Let me know your thoughts.

As people in the thread say, it has always been like this. This is nothing new at all. And while credits are a squeeze, it's easier to put up with credit grinds and have fully outfitted ships if you just have a bit of patience. Even when I was a worse player, it was pretty easy for me to grind up some credits (pre-prem account days) and outfit my ships. As Nevermore says, the real grind in this game is the captain skill point grind. That takes a long time to really get going. It sucks to be a new player with crappy captains.

As for actual skill picks, well...there are two ways to come up with decent builds. Figure out what you'd want to do well with play you have that does well for you, and build toward that. And...look up other people's builds and copy/adapt them to your own. I mostly made my own builds (I ignored captain build references for a long time), but generally they were not too different from meta ones, as I later found out. A good player will generally figure out what they need to do even without a reference.

But that's not most of the players in the game. And if you're not aware of and proficient in the game environment, it may not even occur to you what you're missing in terms of capability from your captain. You can't go find the answer if you don't know to ask the question.

Edited November 3, 2023 by MnemonScarlet

[Arcus_Aesopi]

52 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

I fail to see the connection. Please clarify why a developer's interest in sales is preventing people from using free tutorials and web-ressources on informing themselves about suitable builds. WG has made the changes to highlight good builds and the tutorials recently. This contradicts your idea of them only caring about the premium shop. Especially, that would mean they cared less about players in earlier years, where they didn't bother making such tutorials and now they start caring. So people should not have been interested in builds in 2016 to 2019, when in fact people made topics about that and when we had the Shipcomrade-database. Yet now, that info is readily available, they stop being interested. That is some wild theory

Players each have their own objectives.  They don't have to share yours (or mine) or play in a manner that pleases you (or me). 

Players who also perceive an uneven playing field may therefore not care about doing their "best", thus ignoring all those resources you wish them to use.  Perhaps you've missed the very few posts about game imbalance and grossly under powered and delicate subs and carriers!

Wait until all the perfectly equipped boats & captains appear pink and/or stay nearly idle during the snowflake event... they're gaming the way they want regardless of the effect on the quality of the game for the rest of us.  Charge... shoot once and/or ram something and... on to the next boat!  Working as intended... get those rewards to use in the armory!

The DD torp... torp... ram technique isn't fun for anyone else, but it is game-rewarded.  That doesn't indicate a concern about the quality of the play to me.

But I do like the Black Friday event...   The black boats are pretty...

So the player behavior you see matches up with the developer effort we see in the connection between in-game play and marketing.  Neither care about the game play.

I would also wish that the focus for all would be more on good game play, but I'm just a little more pragmatic about what I see regarding both WG's effort and the impact on the game play.

That is the connection I see.

Fair winds and following seas... and hopefully better game play for all... someday.

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, Aragathor said:

What exactly is WG doing to educate the players about the optimal builds? Yeah, thought so.

 

This.

[Admiral_Karasu]

@HMS_Kilinowski The approach you seem to be suggesting is ideal but in practice it just isn't practical or cost effective.

[ArIskandir]

46 minutes ago, WildSide said:

Well I can't speak for anyone on your team, but for me most ships are so mediocre that I just want to grind them quickly and forget about them, hence there is zero need to waste silver on modules (I can't demount them for free remember?!) or waste CXP on their commanders. I don't care if I do slightly worse, it still takes more or less the same number of games to earn the XP to get to the next ship. I ALWAYS need silver in this game and there are so many credit sinks that modules are very, very low on my priority on all ships except the premium ones I intend to play a lot. 

Well, this was very enlightening and provides a solid answer to OP's question.

 

Question: How do you determine a ships is so mediocre as deserving to be ground out without upgrading it? Isn't it a bit of a self fulfilled prophesy if you don't give her the chance to shine? 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

 

3 hours ago, Arcusaesopi said:

Players each have their own objectives.  They don't have to share yours (or mine) or play in a manner that pleases you (or me). 

Players who also perceive an uneven playing field may therefore not care about doing their "best", thus ignoring all those resources you wish them to use.  Perhaps you've missed the very few posts about game imbalance and grossly under powered and delicate subs and carriers!

Wait until all the perfectly equipped boats & captains appear pink and/or stay nearly idle during the snowflake event... they're gaming the way they want regardless of the effect on the quality of the game for the rest of us.  Charge... shoot once and/or ram something and... on to the next boat!  Working as intended... get those rewards to use in the armory!

The DD torp... torp... ram technique isn't fun for anyone else, but it is game-rewarded.  That doesn't indicate a concern about the quality of the play to me.

The difference is that such a DD is doing their job. A DD that kills 3 enemy ships is playing the objective and winning the game. That others see the game from a perspective of personal gains is just that, a non-teamoriented perspective. I have never seen a banner at the end of the game saying "You were the top grinder in this battle. Congratulations." Just as in football the objective is to win, and it would be deemed unsportsmanlike if one player only played to shoot at the goal from any remote position, this game has an objective, too. If you don't accept the objective, why play at all? And why force your personal objective upon others? I mean i did not make that winning condition up, cause I want some personal motivation to play. The objective is given and of course I accept it. It is the consent given beyond my vanity.

Also, if subs and CVs are so overpowered that you needn't bother putting on modules when you play against them, why do people who play these classes also not put on modules and good commanders? Cause if the first point made was a legit reason, then the opposite couldn't be.

The whole point about WG not caring about the players and players because of that not caring about builds is like saying: "Life sucks, so I might as well leave the house without pants."

 

1 hour ago, WildSide said:

Well I can't speak for anyone on your team, but for me most ships are so mediocre that I just want to grind them quickly and forget about them, hence there is zero need to waste silver on modules (I can't demount them for free remember?!) or waste CXP on their commanders. I don't care if I do slightly worse, it still takes more or less the same number of games to earn the XP to get to the next ship. I ALWAYS need silver in this game and there are so many credit sinks that modules are very, very low on my priority on all ships except the premium ones I intend to play a lot. 

I don't understand what you need silver for. For what? The next ship in line? Why do you not just play the ship you have right now? It is a ship right? What is so bad about the ship you have and what is so much better about the next ship? You say the ships are mediocre, but how do you know, when you play them stock and where do you take the prospect that the next ship or the end of the line is better? After all you are sucessively increasing the mediocrity of your build in comparison to your opponent. Each higher ship is by definition worse, cause a bad build will fall behind the more, the higher you go. This looks like a fallacy to me.

My builds earn back the ressources I spend on them by the surplus I earn through better results. I'll give you an example: One of my early lines was IJN-CAs. It took me 62 Random battles and 19 Coops to elite the Myoko. The modules on the Myoko cost 125k+250k+500k+1M = 1.75M. If you sell them after the grind, you get back half, so they only cost you 875,000 credits. So if I earned 10,800 credits more per battle, just because of my ship being less prone to incapacitations, more maneuverable, more precise gunwise, I have refinanced my investment. All that for an ordinary grind, not a ship I intend to keep. I find it is very likely you will earn those extra 10k with an outfitted ship. That is basically half a salvo more hits and you got those 10k. So don't tell me that stock ships are economiocally more feasible. You guys just didn't do the math.