Well.... it is clear that Wedgie's so called brawl MM is artificially manipulated.

[Andrewbassg]

Supposedly, the MM is based on performance, but.... that may be misleading. It is not possible to get the amount of potatoes I get, as I near completion.

So.... it is pretty clear to me that Wargambling is actively manipulating the Mm, in order to force people to play more. While normally I would just laugh it off.....actually is incredibly frustrating.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

4 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

Supposedly  the MM is based on performance, but....  that may be misleading. it is not possible to get the amount of potatoes I get, as I near completion.

So.... it is pretty clear to me that Wargambling is actively manipulating the Mm, in order to force people to play more. While normally I would just laugh it off.....actually is incredibly frustrating.

Not surprising, TBH.

One of the reasons I've avoided brawls since they came out.

[YouSatInGum]

Actually, you are right but for the wrong reason.

 

There are just that many people playing poorly.  Notice I didn't say bad players.  I'm convinced that some of the poor play is because the repetition of the games are so fast that it doesn't matter if a player makes bad decisions....just play another.

 

Actually WG has called Brawl skill based MM because it counts number of wins.... but that's not SBMM....  that's just persistence based MM.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

15 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

Actually, you are right but for the wrong reason.

 

There are just that many people playing poorly.  Notice I didn't say bad players.  I'm convinced that some of the poor play is because the repetition of the games are so fast that it doesn't matter if a player makes bad decisions....just play another.

 

Actually WG has called Brawl skill based MM because it counts number of wins.... but that's not SBMM....  that's just persistence based MM.

Indeed.

Of course, it was transparent early on that WG intended brawls to be a place for divisions to grief potatoes.

When that drew uproar, they put the lazyest possible matchmaking system together to claim it was 'skill based'...but even that doesn't work...because it still provides no protection for queue dumps, which are a huge part of the current game context.

It's been clear from WGs actions that brawls is a mode for the elites to grief the rest...and WG actively lies about the intent of the mode.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

"Waah waah waah WG give me carry teams" episode 877459676834456367834586874 and a half. We have heard this all before and we will hear it all again. Winners don't complain about matchmaking.

 

21 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

I'm convinced that some of the poor play is because the repetition of the games are so fast that it doesn't matter if a player makes bad decisions....just play another.

Exactly. Brawls isn't exactly playing for the highest stakes. You are fighting the equivalent of a schoolyard brawl between ten-year-olds. If you consistently want to be on good teams, be part of a good clan that routinely kicks aft in Clan Battles or KOTS.

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Ensign Cthulhu

[Andrewbassg]

20 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

There are just that many people playing poorly.  Notice I didn't say bad players.  I'm convinced that some of the poor play is because the repetition of the games are so fast that it doesn't matter if a player makes bad decisions....just play another.

 

No doubt about it. But....

21 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

Actually WG has called Brawl skill based MM because it counts number of wins.... but that's not SBMM....  that's just persistence based MM.

 

And that's precisely the issue, because I had much more wins than losses. Yet I got a Dd who didn't even enter the cap(!! no radar). Like....at all. Not to mention all the others....

7 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

that brawls is a mode for the elites to grief the rest

Well idk 'bout that. I play for fun. 

 

And the rewards ( coal) 🙂 

[Andrewbassg]

16 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

"Waah waah waah WG give me carry teams" episode 877459676834456367834586874 and a half. We have heard this all before and we will hear it all again. Winners don't complain about matchmaking.

 

Exactly. Brawls isn't exactly playing for the highest stakes. You are fighting the equivalent of a schoolyard brawl between ten-year-olds. If you consistently want to be on good teams, be part of a good clan that routinely kicks aft in Clan Battles or KOTS.

 

Well wah or not is a legit point. Usually when MM is working as intended, one have to wait a bit. Coz suppsedly is ...."thinking". Or somethin'....

[Asym]

4 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

Supposedly  the MM is based on performance, but....  that may be misleading. it is not possible to get the amount of potatoes I get, as I near completion.

So.... it is pretty clear to me that Wargambling is actively manipulating the Mm, in order to force people to play more. While normally I would just laugh it off.....actually is incredibly frustrating.

And, that's why a great majority of us don't play anything PVP.....  Who the heck wants to be manipulated in any way? 

3 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

"Waah waah waah WG give me carry teams" episode 877459676834456367834586874 and a half. We have heard this all before and we will hear it all again. Winners don't complain about matchmaking.

Exactly. Brawls isn't exactly playing for the highest stakes. You are fighting the equivalent of a schoolyard brawl between ten-year-olds. If you consistently want to be on good teams, be part of a good clan that routinely kicks aft in Clan Battles or KOTS.

Clan Battles and KOTS, oh please.....  Now, if we had Open Ocean, Submarines and Carriers involved then, we'd see who is King or Jester.  Till then, please refrain from such hyperbole LoL.

And, this type of frustration is going to get worse as more and more 8 year olds come into the game to replace the Baby Boomers that are leaving at an alarming rate.....

History, repeating itself........

[Ensign Cthulhu]

7 minutes ago, Asym said:

Clan Battles and KOTS, oh please...

Well then tell me where the hell else in this game he can routinely be on a unified, voice-comms team against human opponents.

8 minutes ago, Asym said:

Who the heck wants to be manipulated in any way? 

That's why I refuse to give any credence to this paranoid hyperbole every man and his dog is sprouting. 

I don't go looking for reasons outside myself to explain my own poor performance. If I can't pull a failing team back from the brink, it's because I don't have unicum carry capabilities and I accept that. If I get beaten by a human opponent, it's because I sucked.

[Wolfswetpaws]

4 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

Well.... it is clear that Wedgie's so called brawl MM is artificially manipulated.

Supposedly  the MM is based on performance, but.... that may be misleading. it is not possible to get the amount of potatoes I get, as I near completion.

So.... it is pretty clear to me that Wargambling is actively manipulating the Mm, in order to force people to play more. While normally I would just laugh it off.....actually is incredibly frustrating.

Out of curiosity, what sort of statistics can you offer to support your claim(s)?

[Project45_Opytny]

It should have been published somewhere that WG has stated Brawls mode has a rudimentry adjusted MM that will match players with similar numbers of victorious battles.

Yet that is indeed a poor metric. Even for regular Ranked seasons, there is a tale from CN WoWS players about a dedicated gamer (it is said that that guy lives on collecting apartment rents) have repeatedly managed to advance to Gold League, despite rather poor performance overall, simply by playing a lot and once in a while get someone else to carry him to victory.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

3 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

Yet that is indeed a poor metric. Even for regular Ranked seasons, there is a tale from CN WoWS players about a dedicated gamer (it is said that that guy lives on collecting apartment rents) have repeatedly managed to advance to Gold League, despite rather poor performance overall, simply by playing a lot and once in a while get someone else to carry him to victory.

Tales of people on the NA server who advanced to Rank 1 by playing some ridiculous number of battles and advancing in the same fashion have circulated for years. 

[Project45_Opytny]

7 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Tales of people on the NA server who advanced to Rank 1 by playing some ridiculous number of battles and advancing in the same fashion have circulated for years. 

That guy's fame is also contributed by at least two factors. One is that he has a very memorable IGN (CN server allows IGN in Chinese characters), and his name is... a famous quote of ancient philosopher Zhuang Zhou, and he is very, very keen on playing Grosser Kurfurst and other German BBs; the other is that it is said that he even has some followers who tries to use his Gold R1 rank to argue (obviously against the facts) that he is some sort of a unicum player.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Project45_Opytny

[Asym]

3 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Well then tell me where the hell else in this game he can routinely be on a unified, voice-comms team against human opponents.

That's why I refuse to give any credence to this paranoid hyperbole every man and his dog is sprouting. 

I don't go looking for reasons outside myself to explain my own poor performance. If I can't pull a failing team back from the brink, it's because I don't have unicum carry capabilities and I accept that. If I get beaten by a human opponent, it's because I sucked.

A point of order:  we (the crew I run with) play a lot and have been in Divisions and on Discord for a very, very long long time mate !  Even before I joined this game those same people were on Discord or TS playing PVP as a team in PVP modes in other games....  Tens of thousands of matches in the past in other games and then, this game.

Ah, me thinks you have this backwards in terms of where this game's future is.....  It isn't PVP.  Think about the influx of "children with credit cards whom want an arcade shooter" and tell me............will there be a KOTS;  if, <6,000 mature players are all that are left in the game???  How long will it take before the 8 year olds simply drive the quality into the ground and we older players simply leave???  Quality = Retention.....yes?

History seems to say that:  "all of the competitive modes of play in mature games seem to dwindle or become reflections of that they were, as the gameplay paradigms shift markets to younger buyers where revenue to easier to achieve with less complex spending....."   I guess you simply don't see the Forrest sometimes....

Just guessing mate.......you could be right !  (I hope so anyway because I like this game !)

[clammboy]

I don't play a lot of brawls but I do do play a lot of randoms and some missions and what not . I have noticed that when I am on a 3 or 4 day win streak were my win rate is 60% or 55% that inevitably I become up tiered in almost all my match's. I also seem to always spawn on the flank with only 3 ships with at least one them being another up tiered ship. After I lose for 2 or 3 days it goes away for a while rinse and repeat. Now is this just a coincidence or is in the programming is it a way to keep you close to a 50% player which is deemed the norm?

I don't really know.......I do know I am not a good enough player to over come some of these obstacles that they throw at me so maybe I notice it more. However the really good player is able to overcome this and still win they don't feel that way. So I can understand very good players saying it's just you your not good enough because they can overcome the disadvantages that I cant.

So in a subtle way I kind of feel the MM may be going back and forth between hard for you to win games and easier for you to win games. But it is still up to you to find away to win when at a disadvantage . And I really am not ready to say it's being done to screw me because its being done to everyone it's in programing I think.

Bottom line is I have to get better because the MM is not even there are going to be plenty of games were the odds are stacked against me.

 

[Andrewbassg]

17 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Out of curiosity, what sort of statistics can you offer to support your claim(s)?

Personal experience. Note  that I played all three classes and because the pairing MM is personalised ( coz it is in case of brawls) it is a valid observation. Your experience may vary.

[Wolfswetpaws]

Just now, Andrewbassg said:

22 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Out of curiosity, what sort of statistics can you offer to support your claim(s)?

Personal experience. Note  that I played all three classes and because the pairing MM is personalised ( coz it is in case of brawls) it is a valid observation. Your experience may vary.

Thank you for providing an answer to my question.

[Andrewbassg]

21 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Thank you for providing an answer to my question.

Still.....

 

 

Note that I had a disconnect and i lost some of the earlier battle results, which made me post. And i admit to at least 2 losses as me being a contributing factor from  this list.

Edit: Btw....

 

And the last two replays.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kv00ENQC7iCR4uixd1A0iIK7u1lqdGuy/view?usp=drive_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EkDulwxK-mWywSxUx9dl4e_DLZXqMUDT/view?usp=drive_link

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Winners don't complain about matchmaking.

Nope.

Winners DO complain about matchmaking. I do often when my team fully stomps the enemy. That isn't fun.

1 hour ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

That's why I refuse to give any credence to this paranoid hyperbole every man and his dog is sprouting. 

I don't go looking for reasons outside myself to explain my own poor performance. If I can't pull a failing team back from the brink, it's because I don't have unicum carry capabilities and I accept that. If I get beaten by a human opponent, it's because I sucked.

...and this is why you get manipulated by WG to think that only losers complain about matchmaking....which is obviously untrue.

But until you are willing to view WG as a normal business in the free2play gaming space...i.e., an unregulated casino...

...you will continue to be irritated by those who see the game for what it is, rather than how it is advertised.

54 minutes ago, clammboy said:

I don't play a lot of brawls but I do do play a lot of randoms and some missions and what not . I have noticed that when I am on a 3 or 4 day win streak were my win rate is 60% or 55% that inevitably I become up tiered in almost all my match's. I also seem to always spawn on the flank with only 3 ships with at least one them being another up tiered ship. After I lose for 2 or 3 days it goes away for a while rinse and repeat. Now is this just a coincidence or is in the programming is it a way to keep you close to a 50% player which is deemed the norm?

I don't really know.......I do know I am not a good enough player to over come some of these obstacles that they throw at me so maybe I notice it more. However the really good player is able to overcome this and still win they don't feel that way. So I can understand very good players saying it's just you your not good enough because they can overcome the disadvantages that I cant.

So in a subtle way I kind of feel the MM may be going back and forth between hard for you to win games and easier for you to win games. But it is still up to you to find away to win when at a disadvantage . And I really am not ready to say it's being done to screw me because its being done to everyone it's in programing I think.

Bottom line is I have to get better because the MM is not even there are going to be plenty of games were the odds are stacked against me.

 

And this is the only practical response.

Is WG using the MM to manipulate you? Of course...THAT IS THE BUSINESS MODEL.

Is there anything you can do about it? No.

So do your best, and don't sweat the game too much.

Also, understand that the competitive scene is a joke...

This is an arcade shooter that thrives on memes. It is not an e-sports ready game with good balancing.

Set expectations appropriately and most of the negativity goes away.

[Pugilistic]

2 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

 

And that's precisely the issue, because I had much more wins than losses. Yet I got a Dd who didn't even enter the cap(!! no radar). Like....at all. Not to mention all the others....

 

He probably had recent wins as well, but just got carried to them. Ranked and Brawls are grinds by persistence, terrible players can get exactly the same rewards as elite players simply by pressing the "Battle" button enough times. 

[NMA101]

Unfortunately, the way Brawls is set up, the only way to counter WG's "recent wins" MM is to tank for losses. 

Once you lose one match, just yolo in the next 3 or 4 to "force" a loss. This way the MM will "reset" and you will get easier opponents eventually. 

This is especially valid if you see a team lineup that is stacked against you. For instance, 2 cruisers w/o heals and 1 gunboat DD versus 1 torp DD and 2 overmatching BBs.

[Sorry_Yodo_Only]

Brawl and CB 'skill based' MM 9with some difference between the two) is mostly dependent on number of win you get, and of course if you run solo when div is allowed, you are griefing yourself, since you not only dump yourself on untrustable variables of solo queue teammate but also because if you do run into a div, they are probably playing ships that are either good or have good synergy with each other

In term of MM, from the screenshot you sent, your W/L is 11/7, it seem about right

For e.g. in CB, some sweatier clan will set their Bravo div to not try as hard/basically just not care about losing, because losses in Bravo will be accounted for in the skill based MM for the pushing Alpha rating, which is why you hear story of clan around mid-season that push too fast for e.g. to Storm and face Typhoon/Hurricane clan due to their winstreaks

[Aethervox]

"... artificially manipulated." You got that right. It is all WG is capable of.

[Aethervox]

13 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Is WG using the MM to manipulate you? Of course...THAT IS THE BUSINESS MODEL.

Is there anything you can do about it? No.

Here, WG cannot suppress the truth that WG manipulates the MM.

[Unlooky]

Hop off the copium.

19 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

Supposedly, the MM is based on performance, but.... that may be misleading. It is not possible to get the amount of potatoes I get, as I near completion.

So.... it is pretty clear to me that Wargambling is actively manipulating the Mm, in order to force people to play more. While normally I would just laugh it off.....actually is incredibly frustrating.

The MM is based off the amount of wins you have in that mode, and nothing more. It makes sense (given the lower average skill of brawls players) that the players with the most wins are potatoes carried by teammates and divs who just need a few more wins to collect all the rewards. Even if WG was specifically making a MM to target players like you, use your brain to actually think about it. WHY would Wargaming spend massive amounts of time and resources developing a hyper-advanced matchmaking algorithm? HOW did it select you specifically? By what metric does WG consider a player to be a potato? Tier relevant statistics? You would most certainly be considered a potato by T10 statistics. How does WG consistently group potatoes together to ruin one player's experience? 

 

Considering WG's inability to make any sort of matchmaking system beyond counting wins, these sort of "theories" about rigged matchmaking are laughable.