True Torpedo Boats (Hunter Killers)

[kriegerfaust]

 

Displacement	388 t (382 long tons) design
Length	63.0 m (206 ft 8 in) o/a
Beam	7.0 m (23 ft 0 in)
Draught	2.23 m (7 ft 4 in)
Installed power	5,900 PS (5,800 ihp; 4,300 kW)
Propulsion	3 × boilers 2 × Triple expansion steam engines
Speed	26.5 kn (30.5 mph; 49.1 km/h)
Armament	3× 5.0 cm guns 3× 45 cm torpedo tubes

This will take some explanation most of you will already know.  First came the torpedo then came the torpedo boat a ship designed, well to deploy torpedoes.  Then came the torpedo boat destroyer which became the "destroyer".  What if we had full blown torpedo-boats, not under gunnded destroyers but ships who's main weapon is torpedoes.

Take this ship with torpedoes firing forward and aft, shock gasp you mean a ship not just shooting to the side (Ok i know there is one ship with a forward torpedo firing arc).  but it has only three torpedo tubes, first add a tube rack to the aft taking out that one sad gun and adding tow side mounted guns like the front.  Then second double or triple up with two on the bottom and one on the top between the two, or hell make a quad two top two bottom.

The problems, well it's hard enough to hit a destroyer as it is look at that bow like hitting a mouse.  Well true but you get like four small guns that means unlike a destroyer a torpedo boat would not be able to set the enemy on fire.  I love this tactic setting them on fire they have two choices, put the fire risk flooding damage or wait for the torpedoes that might never hit.  They would have one glaring weakness, fighters and destroyers yes destroyers which have always been harder to kill with torpedoes.   I have been bringing up evolving obsolete design's but it can be fun what if the torpedo boat evolved alongside or instead of the torpedo boat destroyer.

[Jakob Knight]

I don't know what the point of these would be.  We already have Destroyers that are torpedo-centered as their main weapons, and Subs which rely on torpedoes exclusively.  What would these offer other than a severely undergunned and fragile Destroyer as an alternative to what is already available?  There is a reason they evolved into PT Boats, after all.

 

 

[kriegerfaust]

Firing arc, imagine being able to fire as you charge spin around in one swoop and fire torpedoes out the aft.   the enemy has little chance to ever shoot at you, second i said upgraded, not a torpedo boat with three torpedos' but six to twelve.  Can't recall the name but there is a German sub at low tier has high rate of fire and arcs to kill for.  -We already have Destroyers that are torpedo-centered as their main weapons- I disagreed they feel like nerfed destroyers with slightly better torpedo armament.  Compare center fire warship (guns along the centerline of the ship) to the older warships with guns split between both side of the ship.  Imagine a WW2 ship of the line, you don't have to take a low tier cruiser with the guns only able to fire to the left or right and almost no guns able to fire fore or aft.  compare that to latter ships with the guns forward and aft able to fire to both sides and front and aft.

[Pugilistic]

I would think that several low-tier DDs, particulary Umikaze, Waketake, and Isokaze, qualify due to disproportionate reliance on torps over guns. 

[Guest]

You run into the persistent WG problem of ignoring low tiers, which is where these boats would best fit. When they did the Euro DD split and ignored anything below T5 it excluded such torpedo boats as the Norwegian  Sleipner class the Italina Ciclone and Orsa class, German Type 23 class and many others. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Kalishnikat

[FltCaptAlan]

*The Kamchatka has left the chat*

[Ensign Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, Kalishnikat said:

When they did the Euro DD split and ignored anything below T5 it excluded such torpedo boats as the Norwegian  Sleipner class the Italina Ciclone and Orsa class, German Type 23 class and many others. 

Italy and Germany are their own nations with their own low-tier destroyers. 

[kriegerfaust]

I am talking about it as a split between destroyer-torpedo - destroyer-gunboats and a third or second line in some cases of torpedo boats evolving called hunter killers.   you see destroyers are not an evolution of torpedo boats, but torpedo boat destroyers a ship designed to kill torpedo boats.  

The idea is to create a boat or ship dedicated to torpedoes not just rely on them to take out heavier ships like cruisers and battleships.  second is the arc of fire, destroyers all but a minority fire to the side, i get that's a mechanic not a flaw or glitch but.  Wouldn't it be fun to make a true torpedo boat perhaps a huge rate of fire like some lower-level destroyers only, a few more tubes and truly crazy rate of fire.

Destroyer has guns to kill small ships and torpedoes to destroy capital ships (Cruisers and up) while torpedo boats have well torpedoes and a few small guns.  Look at this design two bow mounted torpedoes and four turrets to shoot to the sides, now yes this would have to be low tier under 5 but stack torps on top give it a higher then normal fire rate, and who knows.

 

 

Stack torpedoes or move the aft pair and add a second pair, the fact is i want a ship to strip down guns and give me the ability to throw out more torpedoes.  It would have love health, be very stealthy and maybe have shorter range torps for the Tier or maybe instead lower damage torps, just play with the small craft meta.

See arcs that's the selling point being able to shoot off the bow or the aft of the ship, new tactics to fight or fight against the hunter killer.

Edited October 24, 2023 by kriegerfaust
Added content

[Jakob Knight]

13 hours ago, kriegerfaust said:

Firing arc, imagine being able to fire as you charge spin around in one swoop and fire torpedoes out the aft.   the enemy has little chance to ever shoot at you, second i said upgraded, not a torpedo boat with three torpedos' but six to twelve.  Can't recall the name but there is a German sub at low tier has high rate of fire and arcs to kill for.  -We already have Destroyers that are torpedo-centered as their main weapons- I disagreed they feel like nerfed destroyers with slightly better torpedo armament.  Compare center fire warship (guns along the centerline of the ship) to the older warships with guns split between both side of the ship.  Imagine a WW2 ship of the line, you don't have to take a low tier cruiser with the guns only able to fire to the left or right and almost no guns able to fire fore or aft.  compare that to latter ships with the guns forward and aft able to fire to both sides and front and aft.

 

Torpedo Destroyers already allow for such a tactic, and the main reason they have trouble is when another DD, CV, Sub, or radar spots them.  Without those, they are stealthy hunters with plenty of torpedoes that can fight without exposing itself.  I would note that none of the Torpedo Boats you are looking to introduce had or could have more than a few torpedo tubes due to their size, which would not change.  If it did, we are back to Destroyers again.  There are, as I said, already units in the game such as you are speaking, from the Umikaze and Okhotnik to the Shimakaze.  No unit is going to have full 360 firing arcs on their torpedoes due to the superstructure and other torpedo tubes being in the way, so that is not going to happen, which means all torpedo-armed ships are going to have restricted firing arcs, and Subs already cover the forward/rear only torpedo combat unit kind of combat.  Finally, WG has already placed pretty heavy restrictions on torpedo Destroyers to limit the number of torpedoes in play at any one time, and they aren't going to produce, essentially, a DD with more torpedoes than they currently have.

 

The concept of the Torpedo Boat evolved into the PT Boat because Destroyers made them obsolete, both in performance and in effectiveness.  They became coastal ambush units because on the high seas, a Destroyer would, as the name suggests, destroy them and could handle the job of fleet escort and torpedo ship.  What you seem to be suggesting would just result in a class of DDs that could not defend themselves at all against another DD or aircraft, could not engage Submarines, and could not have the capabilities you seem to want in a unit of that kind in the game.  Even the Subs that are in the game don't have many torpedo tubes compared to Destroyers.

 

As I said, I don't see the point of this line of inquiry.  You would either be trying to make a unit so overpowered that it couldn't be put into the game, or a unit so disadvantaged that it couldn't be effective as a replacement for a Destroyer it would be facing.  If you want to see how such a unit would fare, you can always take a Sub into a game and never submerge or use the homing mechanic.   Or, you can wait until the Kitakami returns to see what such a unit would face in terms of disadvantages (both in operation and in terms of game balance effects implemented by WG).

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Jakob Knight

[Project45_Opytny]

12 hours ago, kriegerfaust said:

Firing arc, imagine being able to fire as you charge spin around in one swoop and fire torpedoes out the aft.   the enemy has little chance to ever shoot at you,

With how archetypal "torpedo boat" type destroyers are played in game I doubt if this may ever be relevant.

A comparable feature, "jousting" single torpedo tubes abreast the forecastle break, was ubiquitous on Imperial German destroyers and may be helpful for a dedicated "knife fighter" type destroyer, yet the concept was discarded during the interwar period. Perhaps it compromised sea-keeping as the British has determined after experimenting with a similar configuration aboard their Admiralty S-class destroyers.

12 hours ago, kriegerfaust said:

second i said upgraded, not a torpedo boat with three torpedos' but six to twelve.
...
Stack torpedoes or move the aft pair and add a second pair, the fact is i want a ship to strip down guns and give me the ability to throw out more torpedoes.  It would have love health, be very stealthy and maybe have shorter range torps for the Tier or maybe instead lower damage torps, just play with the small craft meta.

Meet SMS Jaeger then.

12 hours ago, kriegerfaust said:

What if we had full blown torpedo-boats, not under gunnded destroyers but ships who's main weapon is torpedoes.
...
I disagreed they feel like nerfed destroyers with slightly better torpedo armament.  Compare center fire warship (guns along the centerline of the ship) to the older warships with guns split between both side of the ship.  Imagine a WW2 ship of the line, you don't have to take a low tier cruiser with the guns only able to fire to the left or right and almost no guns able to fire fore or aft.  compare that to latter ships with the guns forward and aft able to fire to both sides and front and aft.

Weapons are designed to outfight opponents, not to satisfy certain fetish. At least in the real, material world.

And how would you define the difference between "a nerfed destroyer" with an example of your "full-blown torpedo boat"? For example, a few ships like Mutsuki, Jaeger and Monaghan Hull-B have so compromised gun armament that they can outgun practically nobody and even opportunistic attacks on already crippled enemies may end up in frustration. Is this your goal to create an even more specialized type of ship?

15 hours ago, kriegerfaust said:

They would have one glaring weakness, fighters and destroyers yes destroyers which have always been harder to kill with torpedoes.   I have been bringing up evolving obsolete design's but it can be fun what if the torpedo boat evolved alongside or instead of the torpedo boat destroyer.

This is already the case for some existing destroyers (Z-44, Jaeger, Benham, Shimakaze, etc.) when being engaged by gunboat or knife-fighter-type destroyers. May we just stop reinventing the wheel?

And you will not succeed in arguing how a less efficient and obsolete sort of design may survive and evolve alongside its successor that is superior in almost all relevant aspects. The Germans attempted to create such sort of ships (Types 1935 and 1937 torpedo boats), yet they proved dismal in service: partly due to the experimental high-parameter propulsion system, partly due to the fact that such smaller craft, in actual service, are also demanded for a variety of roles like ASuW and escorting coastal/short-range convoys, and evolving nature of naval warfare makes it more and more difficult to launch massed torpedo attacks against enemy capital ships.

10 hours ago, kriegerfaust said:

you see destroyers are not an evolution of torpedo boats, but torpedo boat destroyers a ship designed to kill torpedo boats.  

I suggest you to submit this groundbreaking discovery in naval history to whatever naval history institute within your reach so as to publicize it around the world, other than generating a storm in a teapot in a gaming forum.

And seriously, keep the "hunter-killer" for something really worthy of this name please.

[GMMF]

Jaeger is the closest to the torpedo boat designed mindset in high tiers, yet she will suffer under various spotting from above and below the sea, there's no need for an even smaller and flatter ship to exist in that tier. The small size of the torps will limit your damage and your guns are too small to do things, you mentioned low health, low stealth and short range, this means that it will have minimal impact and a high-risk low reward gameplay. Which simply won't work/enjoyable at all in high tiers. Subs just simply do a better job in this regard, and it can dive away. 
If low tiers there are already ships that carries tons of torpedoes, like Derzki and Okhotnik, or ships with low stealth for constant torpedo harassment, like Minekaze and Kamikaze sisters. And I am sure people won't enjoy getting harass by an even smaller and stealthier ship.

[kriegerfaust]

the truth is what would be fun would be another game type call it the small pond type over the big lake we have, destroyers, destroyer escorts, frigates, corvettes, sloops, torpedo boats, cut out anything called a cruiser and above, maybe let in armed merchants and q ship, a knife fight battle at shouting distance.

anyways, it was just and idea a bad idea but so are many ideas in world of warship, carrier hybrids such as making hybrid carriers out of cruisers and battleships, not converting them into carrier making a half and half, or carrier submarines.  they bother flopped the Japanese sub carrier just became big targets and the cruiser carrier and battleship carriers were bad carrier and even worse battleships.  

I give up though i never really thought of an all-torp ship hell there are designs for a nightmare torp battleship, and a Japanese cruiser already exists with more torps than any ship should have.  i do disagree if you made it larger it becomes a destroyer, a destroyer is more than just a size class.   Still its dead, its already dead you killed it, i don't have the power to make it happen i just thought with all the bad ideas inside and out of the game what's one more.

[Type_93]

14 hours ago, kriegerfaust said:

Firing arc, imagine being able to fire as you charge spin around in one swoop and fire torpedoes out the aft.   the enemy has little chance to ever shoot at you, second i said upgraded, not a torpedo boat with three torpedos' but six to twelve.  Can't recall the name but there is a German sub at low tier has high rate of fire and arcs to kill for.  -We already have Destroyers that are torpedo-centered as their main weapons- I disagreed they feel like nerfed destroyers with slightly better torpedo armament.  Compare center fire warship (guns along the centerline of the ship) to the older warships with guns split between both side of the ship.  Imagine a WW2 ship of the line, you don't have to take a low tier cruiser with the guns only able to fire to the left or right and almost no guns able to fire fore or aft.  compare that to latter ships with the guns forward and aft able to fire to both sides and front and aft.

Torp boats in game can do this already. You just have to know how to drive one well. What your proposing would get murdered before they could even get in range to launch. 

[GMMF]

10 minutes ago, kriegerfaust said:

another game type call it the small pond type over the big lake we have, destroyers, destroyer escorts, frigates, corvettes, sloops, torpedo boats, cut out anything called a cruiser and above, maybe let in armed merchants and q ship, a knife fight battle at shouting distance.

WG isn't focusing on this aspect, you can find those here Coastal Fleet USA - War Thunder Wiki

[kriegerfaust]

the trouble is, it's too realistic i like the arcade feel of world of warship, but thanks

[GMMF]

Not a WT guy so feel free to correct me, but this is what I saw first on Google, seems like small boats aren't having a cozy life there as well.

Allow me to imagine a bit, the arcade aspects of WG won't fit small boats imo, by WG logic you won't have a lot of hp, and no respawn in Wows. Basically, you get peppered by an autocannon and that's gameover for you. Press battle on and it will yet be another autocannon fiesta in cap zones or buff circles. The nimbleness of small boats will also make torping a hard job unless its knife fighting distance, so bit less feeling of being rewarded when you hit torps because its usually accompanied by enemy PT boats' suicide torps.

Edited October 24, 2023 by GMMF

[Jakob Knight]

1 hour ago, kriegerfaust said:

the truth is what would be fun would be another game type call it the small pond type over the big lake we have, destroyers, destroyer escorts, frigates, corvettes, sloops, torpedo boats, cut out anything called a cruiser and above, maybe let in armed merchants and q ship, a knife fight battle at shouting distance.

anyways, it was just and idea a bad idea but so are many ideas in world of warship, carrier hybrids such as making hybrid carriers out of cruisers and battleships, not converting them into carrier making a half and half, or carrier submarines.  they bother flopped the Japanese sub carrier just became big targets and the cruiser carrier and battleship carriers were bad carrier and even worse battleships.  

I give up though i never really thought of an all-torp ship hell there are designs for a nightmare torp battleship, and a Japanese cruiser already exists with more torps than any ship should have.  i do disagree if you made it larger it becomes a destroyer, a destroyer is more than just a size class.   Still its dead, its already dead you killed it, i don't have the power to make it happen i just thought with all the bad ideas inside and out of the game what's one more.

 

That all sounds like you knew this was a bad suggestion and still made it just to post a bad idea.  

 

Why propose something you disagree with?

[kriegerfaust]

you sank the ship, gunned down the survivors, chummed the water, what's left?

That taking purely torpedo boats as they exist is a bad Idea.

that is plucking WW1 and interwar torpedo boats is a bad idea. no less a bad idea then having Dreadnought take on Montana in a one v one battle.

it was to start a discussion about destroyers in World of Warship, but white bleeping flag the topic is dead, you shot the soldier, cremated his body, buried him in the ground, leave his freaking grave undefiled

---------thread

---------Is 

---------Closed

----------I will no longer respond or read it

Edited October 24, 2023 by kriegerfaust

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

21 hours ago, kriegerfaust said:

 

Displacement	388 t (382 long tons) design
Length	63.0 m (206 ft 8 in) o/a
Beam	7.0 m (23 ft 0 in)
Draught	2.23 m (7 ft 4 in)
Installed power	5,900 PS (5,800 ihp; 4,300 kW)
Propulsion	3 × boilers 2 × Triple expansion steam engines
Speed	26.5 kn (30.5 mph; 49.1 km/h)
Armament	3× 5.0 cm guns 3× 45 cm torpedo tubes

This will take some explanation most of you will already know.  First came the torpedo then came the torpedo boat a ship designed, well to deploy torpedoes.  Then came the torpedo boat destroyer which became the "destroyer".  What if we had full blown torpedo-boats, not under gunnded destroyers but ships who's main weapon is torpedoes.

Take this ship with torpedoes firing forward and aft, shock gasp you mean a ship not just shooting to the side (Ok i know there is one ship with a forward torpedo firing arc).  but it has only three torpedo tubes, first add a tube rack to the aft taking out that one sad gun and adding tow side mounted guns like the front.  Then second double or triple up with two on the bottom and one on the top between the two, or hell make a quad two top two bottom.

The problems, well it's hard enough to hit a destroyer as it is look at that bow like hitting a mouse.  Well true but you get like four small guns that means unlike a destroyer a torpedo boat would not be able to set the enemy on fire.  I love this tactic setting them on fire they have two choices, put the fire risk flooding damage or wait for the torpedoes that might never hit.  They would have one glaring weakness, fighters and destroyers yes destroyers which have always been harder to kill with torpedoes.   I have been bringing up evolving obsolete design's but it can be fun what if the torpedo boat evolved alongside or instead of the torpedo boat destroyer.

 

  ............ Asashio?

 

[Project45_Opytny]

4 hours ago, Jakob Knight said:

That all sounds like you knew this was a bad suggestion and still made it just to post a bad idea.  

Why propose something you disagree with?

After making a quick check, it seems that OP, assuming he/she uses the same IGN in WG games as the forum nickname here, hasn't even played one single battle in World of Warships ever since registration in 2013 (and a resounding 71 battles fought in World of Tanks).

https://profile.worldofwarships.com/statistics/1004036560/pvp

https://worldoftanks.com/en/community/accounts/1004036560-Kriegerfaust/

[Andrewbassg]

21 hours ago, kriegerfaust said:

 

 

You mean something like this?

Mind you, these didn't had tube launchers, the torps were "launched" like lifeboats, the "mechanism" is visible on the second pic, where the row of sailors start....

...or perhaps this....

 

She is NMS Rândunica and actually sank a warship, the monitor Seyfi with her spar torpedo, the only such occurrence in EU waters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NMS_Rândunica

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spar_torpedo

There's a  link to a Steam rendering of "her" ( well more like her "class" tho she was single IRL).

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?l=hungarian&id=2775087438

Edited October 24, 2023 by Andrewbassg

[Pugilistic]

16 hours ago, Project45_Opytny said:

After making a quick check, it seems that OP, assuming he/she uses the same IGN in WG games as the forum nickname here, hasn't even played one single battle in World of Warships ever since registration in 2013 (and a resounding 71 battles fought in World of Tanks).

https://profile.worldofwarships.com/statistics/1004036560/pvp

https://worldoftanks.com/en/community/accounts/1004036560-Kriegerfaust/

I noticed there were players, who despite having a substantial number of battles, had 3x as many posts in the old forum. They apparently preferred talking about the game more than playing it. 

[Yedwy]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:34 PM, kriegerfaust said:

Snip

IMHO just wait for the DDGs that are inevitably comming sooner or later

[Jakob Knight]

20 hours ago, kriegerfaust said:

you sank the ship, gunned down the survivors, chummed the water, what's left?

That taking purely torpedo boats as they exist is a bad Idea.

that is plucking WW1 and interwar torpedo boats is a bad idea. no less a bad idea then having Dreadnought take on Montana in a one v one battle.

it was to start a discussion about destroyers in World of Warship, but white bleeping flag the topic is dead, you shot the soldier, cremated his body, buried him in the ground, leave his freaking grave undefiled

---------thread

---------Is 

---------Closed

----------I will no longer respond or read it

 

I wasn't aware you are a DevStrike moderator.  Otherwise all anyone can do is open a topic for discussion, and it goes from there.

 

If you don't want discussion, why post?

 

 

[invicta2012]

On 10/24/2023 at 11:12 AM, Jakob Knight said:

I would note that none of the Torpedo Boats you are looking to introduce had or could have more than a few torpedo tubes due to their size, which would not change.  If it did, we are back to Destroyers again.

Two or three per ship? That's fine. Have you ever played the USS Smith in WoWs? She's hilarious - three tubes which do very little damage, but which reload every 11 seconds. I wouldn't base a whole line on her, but you can see that it's not always the number of torpedoes that counts, but how quickly the next one is coming along.

The main problem these small torpedo craft have is that they are just too small and lack survivability to work as a current "one life" Destroyer. But we know that one-life DD play is increasingly difficult, so why not try a CV style "Flotilla" approach with more than one PT Boat/E-Boat to deploy during a game? Properly balanced, it could prevent certain DDs being overpowerful and would certainly prevent the "lose the DD, lose the game" effect which happens far too often.