Long Range-Slow or Short Range-Fast

[Musket22]

Just a thought...

Surface ships get to choose between HE/SAP or AP for their guns.

Would it be too much admin/work for sub captains to have to choose to either have;

1. Short Range - Fast torpedoes 

or 

2. Long Range - Slow torpedoes

I know the priviledged classes (CV / Sub) hate extra chores the rest of us have to contend with. 🙂

[Wolfswetpaws]

14 minutes ago, Musket22 said:

Just a thought...

Surface ships get to choose between HE/SAP or AP for their guns.

Would it be too much admin/work for sub captains to have to choose to either have;

1. Short Range - Fast torpedoes 

or 

2. Long Range - Slow torpedoes

I know the priviledged classes (CV / Sub) hate extra chores the rest of us have to contend with. 🙂

Play a few submarines and learn that they already have choices.
1.  Acoustic homing torpedoes (which may be fired without using the "ping", if stealth is desired)
2.  "Dumb-fired" torpedoes, which can only be launched when the Submarine is at periscope depth or surfaced.

Edit:  Of course, the exact set of torpedo armament options varies according to the submarine in question.
The wiki should have the relevant details.
https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Submarines  
 

Edited December 26, 2024 by Wolfswetpaws

[Musket22]

You're thoughts are welcome but...

Does not address the extended range at just barely sub-sonic speed of sub torpedoes.

"Play a few submarines and learn..." 

and have to submit to multiple sessions of chemo?  

No way!

[Aethervox]

?

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Musket22 said:

Long Range-Slow or Short Range-Fast

---

By Musket22

Just a thought...

Surface ships get to choose between HE/SAP or AP for their guns.

Would it be too much admin/work for sub captains to have to choose to either have;

1. Short Range - Fast torpedoes 

or 

2. Long Range - Slow torpedoes

I know the priviledged classes (CV / Sub) hate extra chores the rest of us have to contend with. 🙂

 

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Play a few submarines and learn that they already have choices.
1.  Acoustic homing torpedoes (which may be fired without using the "ping", if stealth is desired)
2.  "Dumb-fired" torpedoes, which can only be launched when the Submarine is at periscope depth or surfaced.

Edit:  Of course, the exact set of torpedo armament options varies according to the submarine in question.
The wiki should have the relevant details.
https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Submarines  
 

Seems to me that you were ignorant of some information.
The short version of the information was provided, along with a link so that you could further educate yourself.  
 

41 minutes ago, Musket22 said:

You're thoughts are welcome but...

Does not address the extended range at just barely sub-sonic speed of sub torpedoes.

"Play a few submarines and learn..." 

and have to submit to multiple sessions of chemo?  

No way!

Whereupon you describe a different and not previously mentioned concern.  ^^^^
And you then imply that sailing a submarine will cause you to have cancer.

The civil dialogue is welcome.
Falsehoods, hype, fear, uncertainty and doubt aren't helpful, as I reckon the situation.
 

[Musket22]

27 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

 

Seems to me that you were ignorant of some information.
The short version of the information was provided, along with a link so that you could further educate yourself.  
 

Whereupon you describe a different and not previously mentioned concern.  ^^^^
And you then imply that sailing a submarine will cause you to have cancer.

The civil dialogue is welcome.
Falsehoods, hype, fear, uncertainty and doubt aren't helpful, as I reckon the situation.
 

Spoken like a true believer

[Wolfswetpaws]

10 minutes ago, Musket22 said:

Spoken like a true believer

Are you having difficulty expressing your thoughts and feelings in a constructive manner, without omitting important details?

[Admiral_Karasu]

19 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Play a few submarines and learn that they already have choices.
1.  Acoustic homing torpedoes (which may be fired without using the "ping", if stealth is desired)
2.  "Dumb-fired" torpedoes, which can only be launched when the Submarine is at periscope depth or surfaced.

Edit:  Of course, the exact set of torpedo armament options varies according to the submarine in question.
The wiki should have the relevant details.
https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Submarines  
 

There's one choice too many there, just saying, purely a personal opinion of mine, of course, as always.

[Wolfswetpaws]

19 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

There's one choice too many there, just saying, purely a personal opinion of mine, of course, as always.

Which one?

Which choice would you omit while retaining some capability for Submarines fighting each other?

[Admiral_Karasu]

3 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Which one?

Which choice would you omit while retaining some capability for Submarines fighting each other?

Ping.

[Wolfswetpaws]

16 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Ping.

Removal of the ping mechanic would make it very difficult for submarines to hit each other with torpedoes that could no longer home-in.

While this may provide some "relief" from the annoying phenomena of a ship being pinged repeatedly and frequently, there's useful information being provided about the submarine's location when a submarine uses its ping feature. 
In other words, spotting a submarine's ping allows a player to have the approximate distance and bearing to the submarine.
More pings = more information provided to the submarine's opponent(s).

If you were to somehow wave a magic wand and remove the ping feature, then what would your change lead to?

[Admiral_Karasu]

Just now, Wolfswetpaws said:

Removal of the ping mechanic would make it very difficult for submarines to hit each other with torpedoes that could no longer home-in.

While this may provide some "relief" from the annoying phenomena of a ship being pinged repeatedly and frequently, there's useful information being provided about the submarine's location when a submarine uses its ping feature. 
In other words, spotting a submarine's ping allows a player to have the approximate distance and bearing to the submarine.
More pings = more information provided to the submarine's opponent(s).

If you were to somehow wave a magic wand and remove the ping feature, then what would your change lead to?

Exactly... only WG could be dumb enough to create a stealth class and make revealing itself by pinging an integral part of the 'attraction' of that class for players.

My change would lead to it being a stealth weapon, designed to attack primary targets and avoid detection and engagement with ASW capable surface ships. Sadly, though, WG has completely messed up the whole concept, whether it's the subs, their targets, it's primary combat role or the ASW counter to it. Strangely, however, messing every possible facet of the implementation has not magically produced a working realization of the concept.

[Wolfswetpaws]

7 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Exactly... only WG could be dumb enough to create a stealth class and make revealing itself by pinging an integral part of the 'attraction' of that class for players.

My change would lead to it being a stealth weapon, designed to attack primary targets and avoid detection and engagement with ASW capable surface ships. Sadly, though, WG has completely messed up the whole concept, whether it's the subs, their targets, it's primary combat role or the ASW counter to it. Strangely, however, messing every possible facet of the implementation has not magically produced a working realization of the concept.

This is WG/WOWs we're talking about.  🙄

The ping has become *more* visible, over the years and updates.
My understanding is that the changes were motivated by complaints from players that Submarines were "too stealthy".
Yet, here you are saying they are not stealthy enough?  😉 

Perhaps this is why smart Submarine Players minimize their use of pings?  🙂 
No ping sent = no clue provided to the target.

[Admiral_Karasu]

11 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

This is WG/WOWs we're talking about.  🙄

The ping has become *more* visible, over the years and updates.
My understanding is that the changes were motivated by complaints from players that Submarines were "too stealthy".
Yet, here you are saying they are not stealthy enough?  😉 

Perhaps this is why smart Submarine Players minimize their use of pings?  🙂 
No ping sent = no clue provided to the target.

If they are in the game, they should be stealthy, or they aren't submarines, yes. That would give them an obvious advantage, and to balance they should also have obvious weaknesses, and the whole concept of ASW should have been built from the 'surface up' instead of having it jury rigged like WG did. Lazy, poorly thought out implementation is what I would call it.

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

If they are in the game, they should be stealthy, or they aren't submarines, yes. That would give them an obvious advantage, and to balance they should also have obvious weaknesses, and the whole concept of ASW should have been built from the 'surface up' instead of having it jury rigged like WG did. Lazy, poorly thought out implementation is what I would call it.

Out of curiosity, were you participating in the testing of Submarines (after their introductory Halloween event)?

[clammboy]

33 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Perhaps this is why smart Submarine Players minimize their use of pings? 

If your a smart sub player you use ping when a target is engaged with other ships. It's not like it's easy to even see were the ping came from when busy you can totally miss it. Even if you do see it any sub player worth a grain of salt knows not to ping and stay on the same course. This makes it a guessing game when dropping ASW as the sub has 4 ways to go regardless of the useless arrow on the ping or the red ping mod. 

With experience playing against good sub players you can learn there tricks and try and make an educated guess which way they went so it's a little helpfully but a good sub captain pinging ships is far from a death sentence for them. 

Spoiler this does not apply to the many sucky or new Subs players out there lol. 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2024 by clammboy

[Admiral_Karasu]

22 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Out of curiosity, were you participating in the testing of Submarines (after their introductory Halloween event)?

Nah, only ever in the Wolf pack operation face, unless that's what you meant.

Though, TBH, we shouldn't hijack @Musket22's thread any further.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

19 hours ago, Musket22 said:

Spoken like a true believer

Here you go...some healthy reading to assist you in the transition from WG Discord and social media to this forum.

There is no reason to flame or insult those who do not agree with your opinion on the game.

 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

My understanding is that the changes were motivated by complaints from players that Submarines were "too stealthy"

I'm not sure this assertion is true. I thought the reason the ping was added was because many players couldn't do anything with a sub unless they got close to shotgun, which if done poorly resulted in the sub dying.

Too many players were dying by getting in close....or accomplishing nothing at all by staying at range...so WG gave them a system to get more hits...and 'balanced' it by making the ping visible.

Now, maybe WG claimed something different in public statements...but I've been around long enough to treat WG public statements with the appropriate value...been lied to in them too many times.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

52 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Out of curiosity, were you participating in the testing of Submarines (after their introductory Halloween event)?

Everyone participated...they were tested on the live server.

[Wolfswetpaws]

8 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Everyone participated...they were tested on the live server.

While there was opportunity for "feedback" to be provided (via the old forum) to WG/WOWs during live-testing, much of the testing was done prior to that, in the special submarine test variations of the Public Test Server and on the Public Test Server.

It could be said that WG/WOWs responses and changes made via the "feedback" wasn't always ideal (from the perspective of players), though.
Over-reactions or wild ideas that seemed to come from out of nowhere were tried, as I recall.

Early Submarines were able to detect each other by proximity while underwater.  This led to some wild "knife-fight in a phone-booth" encounters.
Fun times.  🙂 

I'm not sure anyone has written-up a full and complete history of the initial Submarine testing parameters and all the changes made over time.
Might make for some useful reading?

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

1 minute ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Early Submarines were able to detect each other by proximity while underwater.  This led to some wild "knife-fight in a phone-booth" encounters.
Fun times.  🙂

This aspect WAS tested on the live server...

The wiki pages for the various first released subs contain a pretty detailed list of how changes were rolled out.

Concepts are covered in DevBlog entries...subs were tested on live server through 0.10s...then removed, then reintroduced in 0.11.3...then extensively changed again...

Let's not claim that only people who had input on the closed testing prior to 0.10s can talk about sub development. 😉

[Wolfswetpaws]

18 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I'm not sure this assertion is true. I thought the reason the ping was added was because many players couldn't do anything with a sub unless they got close to shotgun, which if done poorly resulted in the sub dying.

Too many players were dying by getting in close....or accomplishing nothing at all by staying at range...so WG gave them a system to get more hits...and 'balanced' it by making the ping visible.

Now, maybe WG claimed something different in public statements...but I've been around long enough to treat WG public statements with the appropriate value...been lied to in them too many times.

My Mutsu got the nickname of "Dances with Torpedoes" while participating in the early submarine tests (not on the live server).
I played all ship types, including Submarines, to give myself various perspectives and experiences.
It was possible to dodge torpedoes (even homing torpedoes), but it required some effort and I wasn't 100% successful.  Was still fun to try, though.

Anyway.  Early on, while underwater Submarines would move at 1/2 their surfaced speed.
Thus, if the submarine was underwater and couldn't be seen by a BB, the BB could outrun them and go capture an area or something.
If the submarine surfaced to move faster, it risked surface detection and was vulnerable to gunfire and sec-bat fire and torpedoes and aerial ordnance (even before the Depth-charge air-strikes were implemented).
 

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

Just now, Wolfswetpaws said:

My Mutsu got the nickname of "Dances with Torpedoes" while participating in the early submarine tests (not on the live server).
I played all ship types, including Submarines, to give myself various perspectives and experiences.
It was possible to dodge torpedoes (even homing torpedoes), but it required some effort and I wasn't 100% successful.  Was still fun to try, though.

Anyway.  Early on, while underwater Submarines would move at 1/2 their surfaced speed.
Thus, if the submarine was underwater and couldn't be seen by a BB, the BB could outrun them and go capture an area or something.
If the submarine surfaced to move faster, it risked surface detection and was vulnerable to gunfire and sec-bat fire and torpedoes and aerial ordnance (even before the Depth-charge air-strikes were implemented).
 

I'm not sure what point you are arguing.

Even now it's possible to dodge torpedoes.

My point is that the ping mechanic was added because WG did not believe most sub players could actually do enough damage without dying if all they had were dumb torpedoes.

[Wolfswetpaws]

17 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I'm not sure what point you are arguing.

Even now it's possible to dodge torpedoes.

My point is that the ping mechanic was added because WG did not believe most sub players could actually do enough damage without dying if all they had were dumb torpedoes.

Oh.  Yeah, that's definitely a different point than what I thought you were trying to make earlier.
Why didn't you lead with that?  😉