The Long-Term Effects of the Wargamming-Lesta Split

[Sorry_Yodo_Only]

Hi everyone,

I've just made a video that discusses the WG-Lesta split where I cover a lot of topics regarding how WG has fared after April 2022, when the company split up from its Russian offices. I cover a lot of things like ship modelling, development, marketing practice, etc, and its too much to make a write-up on so I decided to yap a bit in video essay-esque form. Hopefully you find it interesting- I'd also like to hear your thoughts or what you may have to add to the issue. 

 

[OT2_2]

On the money IMO. 

[Frostbow]

1 hour ago, Sorry_Yodo_Only said:

Hi everyone,

I've just made a video that discusses the WG-Lesta split where I cover a lot of topics regarding how WG has fared after April 2022, when the company split up from its Russian offices. I cover a lot of things like ship modelling, development, marketing practice, etc, and its too much to make a write-up on so I decided to yap a bit in video essay-esque form. Hopefully you find it interesting- I'd also like to hear your thoughts or what you may have to add to the issue. 

Wargaming exiting Russia and Belarus completely was a big decision, and it proved to be the right one. As the doom was fast approaching, there was no telling what the government would do with the business, and they did not want their games to be seized and used later on for propaganda purposes.

It has been painfully clear that Wargaming has been 'recycling' ship models. I don't really know if that can substantially impact the game's financial health in the foreseeable future, but it is there for all to see. While I understand it can take a significant amount of time to develop new ship models, textures, assets, etc., it has been 2 years already since the split. In no uncertain terms, that glaring lack of new models is fast making that aspect of the game boring AF. 

I agree with you that WG is most likely covering up this lack of new graphic assets, ship models, etc., by introducing gimmicks. What we have seen so far is miniscule work and effort—or worse, zero work—in developing new ship models that could have visually set apart tech tree lines that came out after the split.

What I personally find to be the most impactful concerns the art and graphics. Lesta certainly got the better talents for their art department. The Mir Korabli port user interface alone is better (flat, clean, minimalist) than the legacy UI maintained and currently implemented by Wargaming. The current port we have now is beautiful, yes, but for sure we do not know if it was created prior to the split, or it is a sole WG creation after the split.

And then there are bugs that WG just can't get solve or get rid completely. The one featured by Flamu during the Star Trek event is just painfully hilarious to see.

[Sorry_Yodo_Only]

2 hours ago, Frostbow said:

Wargaming exiting Russia and Belarus completely was a big decision, and it proved to be the right one. As the doom was fast approaching, there was no telling what the government would do with the business, and they did not want their games to be seized and used later on for propaganda purposes.

It has been painfully clear that Wargaming has been 'recycling' ship models. I don't really know if that can substantially impact the game's financial health in the foreseeable future, but it is there for all to see. While I understand it can take a significant amount of time to develop new ship models, textures, assets, etc., it has been 2 years already since the split. In no uncertain terms, that glaring lack of new models is fast making that aspect of the game boring AF. 

I agree with you that WG is most likely covering up this lack of new graphic assets, ship models, etc., by introducing gimmicks. What we have seen so far is miniscule work and effort—or worse, zero work—in developing new ship models that could have visually set apart tech tree lines that came out after the split.

What I personally find to be the most impactful concerns the art and graphics. Lesta certainly got the better talents for their art department. The Mir Korabli port user interface alone is better (flat, clean, minimalist) than the legacy UI maintained and currently implemented by Wargaming. The current port we have now is beautiful, yes, but for sure we do not know if it was created prior to the split, or it is a sole WG creation after the split.

And then there are bugs that WG just can't get solve or get rid completely. The one featured by Flamu during the Star Trek event is just painfully hilarious to see.

Yeah, I've heard from some people that one of the reasons why they left is because WG didn't want to hit by sanctions as being identified as a Russian company, but at the same time at least part of it is definitely a PR move, and a lot of people I've talked to just don't really like the 'cost' we paid in order for the split, as you mentioned. 

Edited December 22, 2024 by Sorry_Yodo_Only

[Tread_Head57]

I think we need to differentiate between Wargaming and World of Warships. Wargaming is the parent company, of which, World of Warships is merely one portfolio. Since the split, WG seems to be investing assets into other portfolios of their company. They have a new robot fighting game entering beta. World of tanks gets more substantial updates. My view is that the split caused  a loss of relatively “cheap” talent within the World of Warships portfolio and WG is not willing to invest much more into the WoWs portfolio due to limited economic return. The heavy monetization schemes, recycled ship assets, and small amount of actual new growth also point to a portfolio trying to maximize profitability and eliminate costs. Remember, WoWs does not keep every dollar they generate. Profits go to WG and WoWs developers receive a budget from which to develop their product. The WoWs developers must return a continued profit otherwise their portfolio’s budget/ assets/people will be re-invested into other areas of the company. WoWs is obviously not the core product for WG, merely a product line in which capital investments made long ago continue to generate returns. WoWs will continue to exist as long as it generates profit with minimal financial investment, but I do not see WG as looking to grow this product line. 

Edited December 22, 2024 by Tread_Head57

[Yedwy]

2 hours ago, Tread_Head57 said:

I think we need to differentiate between Wargaming and World of Warships. Wargaming is the parent company, of which, World of Warships is merely one portfolio. Since the split, WG seems to be investing assets into other portfolios of their company. They have a new robot fighting game entering beta. World of tanks gets more substantial updates. My view is that the split caused  a loss of relatively “cheap” talent within the World of Warships portfolio and WG is not willing to invest much more into the WoWs portfolio due to limited economic return. The heavy monetization schemes, recycled ship assets, and small amount of actual new growth also point to a portfolio trying to maximize profitability and eliminate costs. Remember, WoWs does not keep every dollar they generate. Profits go to WG and WoWs developers receive a budget from which to develop their product. The WoWs developers must return a continued profit otherwise their portfolio’s budget/ assets/people will be re-invested into other areas of the company. WoWs is obviously not the core product for WG, merely a product line in which capital investments made long ago continue to generate returns. WoWs will continue to exist as long as it generates profit with minimal financial investment, but I do not see WG as looking to grow this product line. 

Pretty much this, WoWS like WoWP before it never was their core product or interest, WoT and prob the console snd mobile stuff is likely what is more interesting to them as something to devlop as it is much easier to maintain compatibility and technical package there those games are also newer then WoWS and hence have more life left in them

[Wolfswetpaws]

8 hours ago, Sorry_Yodo_Only said:

Hi everyone,

I've just made a video that discusses the WG-Lesta split where I cover a lot of topics regarding how WG has fared after April 2022, when the company split up from its Russian offices. I cover a lot of things like ship modelling, development, marketing practice, etc, and its too much to make a write-up on so I decided to yap a bit in video essay-esque form. Hopefully you find it interesting- I'd also like to hear your thoughts or what you may have to add to the issue. 

 

2:07 time-stamp

Quote

"DISCLAIMER:

A lot of what I say in this video is speculation or based on sources that I cannot/am not willing to provide.  However, what I say are thigns (things) that you can observe yourself in the game so I heavily encourage you to have your own thoughts on the issue, discuss stuff in the comments and take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Source(s):
Dude trust me"

Thanks for sharing.

[HogHammer]

Interesting views and thoughts @Sorry_Yodo_Only.  Long ass video, too (lol), but I did watch it all and found it interesting.

I do think it is important to remember as @Tread_Head57 states that WG, based in Cyprus, has gaming assets located in various countries.  WoWs just ended up being RU based.  I do think that WG, along with many businesses, was caught up in a "knee-jerk" reaction at the start of the war.  Morally and from a humanitarian standpoint it made complete sense and one to applaud.  I will add that while many businesses did leave, there are an astounding number of businesses still doing business in RU, especially big gaming companies.  One may not be able to buy a Pepsi in RU, but other consumer products under the Pepsi umbrella are still sold.  So, instead of a complete "pull out," most businesses "curtailed" or placed less emphasis on specific operations while still engaged in RU.

Personally, I think the leadership's actions were correct, and they knowingly knew that they would compromise the quality and innovation of certain aspects of the game.  Frankly, what they did cost them money and, more importantly, human talent.  That is a BIG decision for any business to make, and I have to give WG credit for it. 

We may joke and bitch about the monetization of the current state of WoWs, but from a business standpoint, I will give them some leeway.  I do feel that perhaps the powers to be, may have been too aggressive in certain aspects, however.  I would have rather seen ongoing communication from WG leadership stating where they stand and what players would see and experience with the game in the coming months and years - not just rolling out ship after ship, gimmick after gimmick.

Overall, I believe that the player base would be more forgiving and understanding of the situation and WG in general (my opinion).  I do think that WG sometimes underestimates the value of good communication and the goodwill it provides to the community.

 

[Ensign Cthulhu]

The problem with this is that any discussion of the reason behind the split wanders automatically into politics. I know who is to blame, but I can't say so. 

[YouSatInGum]

3 minutes ago, HogHammer said:

Overall, I believe that the player base would be more forgiving and understanding of the situation and WG in general (my opinion).  I do think that WG sometimes underestimates the value of good communication and the goodwill it provides to the community.

 

Understatement of the year.

Some of the above posts regarding the spinoff of the Lesta studio are spot on.  Past that however, the most important topic to me is how WG treats the natural (or not) evolution of WOWS.  I feel that they missed a golden opportunity to better connect with the player base and correct any hindsight "mis-communication" with the one-time get of a jail card excuse of the studio split as face saving cover.

Unfortunately, they chose the path of "our game...we know best..." that have led to game play where 1/3 of all BB's are Libertards or Andes/Tard Jr's that dumb the game down to levels way worse than even 2020 Smolensk.  It's also hard to comprehend how they could possibly be considering their most faithful customers, the type that knows basic Des Moines gun and hull performance are strictly adhered to (relative to others the game of course) ,yet are painfully aware of immersion breaking "features" like subs that go 35+knots underwater.... and in the interest containing this rant from becoming an expanding wall of explosive exploitatives, let's not discuss the offensive acts indecency against Lady Physics with fallacious attacks such as armor piercing skip bombs.  This is best described by an analogy of what you might expect if you hurl a milk cartoon at bedroom door.... of which any observer would conclude from the remaining evidence that, yes, indeed a mess was made but any penetrations that might have happened had nothing to do the projectile or the door. 

...ah....  I obvious digressed....my apologies.....

Some the recent balance changes do show that WG's helmsmen are at least more considerate of the players than say.... um.....   Sauron , but obviously that leaves just a bit of room for improvement.  Hopefully, the revisiting of old/old-ish ships like Zao and Tulsa do possibly show the understanding that these players favorites need help to complete in new 2025 Libertard meta.

As WG so noted...

Quote

We're applying balance changes to a large number of ships based on an analysis of both their combat statistics and player feedback.

it seems more likely like this was in fact done from feedback since recent fruits of statistical analysis have grown the auto-aiming secondary meta that all AFK players and those with a sticky "W" key on their keyboards both know and love. 

For the rest of us.... we can only hope our feedback prayers to bring "balance" back to ships like Grozovoi or BB Hindy whose detect is now similar to almost every new BB.

 

 

[Verblonde]

2 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

The problem with this is that any discussion of the reason behind the split wanders automatically into politics. I know who is to blame, but I can't say so. 

This. WG's position is also complicated by the apparent fact that large chunks of one of their biggest markets seem to think the root cause of it all is a Good Thing ergo, being too up-front about it all could easily have lost them further revenue.

[Wolfswetpaws]

18 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

This. WG's position is also complicated by the apparent fact that large chunks of one of their biggest markets seem to think the root cause of it all is a Good Thing ergo, being too up-front about it all could easily have lost them further revenue.

In my limited understanding, World of Warships faced the risk of player boycots of their products (in protest of political events initiated by the nation that World of Warships was headquarted within).
Breaking-up the corporate structure and announcing that one company had become two completely separated companies was a viable solution, as far as I can discern.

Is the solution "perfect"?  Well, nothing is "perfect".
But, I prefer the corporate re-structuring more than a complete shutdown of this game in the regions supported by the NA/EU/ASIA game-servers.


 

[fumtu]

Sorry but it is a really biased video. How can I take this serious when everything that WG did is "it is hull taken from this and that" but than everything that Lesta did is brand new. Lets take for example new Soviet Torpedo DD line:

Tier 6: Storozhevoy-class - It is modified Gnevny class with the same hull, most distinguish difference is having two smoke stacks instead of one. So if we follow logic for WG models, it is just tweaked Gnevy class. But I can do even better than that. In 2016, WG released a video about the plans for 2017. And one of things visible in the video is this thing

 

Yes that is a 8 years old model of Storozhevoy-class. BTW there is more in that video, but I will get to that in a moment (see Tier 9)

Tier 7: Ognevoi class - already in the game

Tier 8: Skory class - 8 of these are sold to Indonesia where they were known as Siliwangi class. Ring a bell? Yes it is the same Siliwangy we have in the game. So not a new model

Tier 9: Kotlin class - Anyone remember this?

From the same 2016 video. Last ship, Project 56, or Kotlin class by NATO, is what Lesta is releasing now as T9 DD. And it was modeled back then, so technically not a new ship

Tier 10: It is basically modification of the Neustrashimy class with a new guns (which are already in the game)

So nothing really new there except maybe T10, but even that could be an old model built long ago. They are probably all updated but they have been created before split. Similar for US DD line which are mostly imaginary ships based on Farragut, Mahan, Benham and Somers hulls, Soviet battlecruiser line, which are mostly modified Gangut class, or Pan Asian BB line, basically modified Soviet and Japanese BBs if I am not wrong. And lot of their premiums are using hulls and elements of already existing ships in the game, just like WG is doing.

Yes Lesta has advantage in many things bit this should be more balanced video and better researched, as there is a lot of inaccuracies and simplifications.

Edited December 22, 2024 by fumtu

[clammboy]

I watched the whole video all though it was quite long. It seems like a really one sided video with a lot of it based on your opinion and some suspect information. More facts on both sides of the argument but thanks for your effort. So the real question begs "where's the beef' the real facts in this video?

 

 

 

 

[Aethervox]

The long term effect of the Wargaming-Lesta split? Looks to me like a continually flushing  🚽💩

[Sorry_Yodo_Only]

4 hours ago, fumtu said:

Sorry but it is a really biased video. How can I take this serious when everything that WG did is "it is hull taken from this and that" but than everything that Lesta did is brand new. Lets take for example new Soviet Torpedo DD line:

Tier 6: Storozhevoy-class - It is modified Gnevny class with the same hull, most distinguish difference is having two smoke stacks instead of one. So if we follow logic for WG models, it is just tweaked Gnevy class. But I can do even better than that. In 2016, WG released a video about the plans for 2017. And one of things visible in the video is this thing

 

Yes that is a 8 years old model of Storozhevoy-class. BTW there is more in that video, but I will get to that in a moment (see Tier 9)

Tier 7: Ognevoi class - already in the game

Tier 8: Skory class - 8 of these are sold to Indonesia where they were known as Siliwangi class. Ring a bell? Yes it is the same Siliwangy we have in the game. So not a new model

Tier 9: Kotlin class - Anyone remember this?

From the same 2016 video. Last ship, Project 56, or Kotlin class by NATO, is what Lesta is releasing now as T9 DD. And it was modeled back then, so technically not a new ship

Tier 10: It is basically modification of the Neustrashimy class with a new guns (which are already in the game)

So nothing really new there except maybe T10, but even that could be an old model built long ago. They are probably all updated but they have been created before split. Similar for US DD line which are mostly imaginary ships based on Farragut, Mahan, Benham and Somers hulls, Soviet battlecruiser line, which are mostly modified Gangut class, or Pan Asian BB line, basically modified Soviet and Japanese BBs if I am not wrong. And lot of their premiums are using hulls and elements of already existing ships in the game, just like WG is doing.

Yes Lesta has advantage in many things bit this should be more balanced video and better researched, as there is a lot of inaccuracies and simplifications.

As others have mentioned under the video, one of the issues right now for warships is that there is simply not enough content and the collection of IRL ship ideas is running dry. My point isn't on this however but the fact that Lesta makes a much stronger effort to actually model things, while WoWs has straight up modelled nearly NOTHING for two years. I went through two years of devblogs on Mir Korabli and WoWs before I sat down and impromptu yapped for 40+ minutes, and though Lesta has a lot of copy-paste ships as well, the amount of ships they ahve that actually require new modelling work done to some degree is much, much more than WG.

That's to to say Lesta is perfect, nor my rant. I yapped for 40 minutes impromptu while playing ranked games, so it like my other yapping videos aren't perfect at all.

[Sorry_Yodo_Only]

3 hours ago, clammboy said:

I watched the whole video all though it was quite long. It seems like a really one sided video with a lot of it based on your opinion and some suspect information. More facts on both sides of the argument but thanks for your effort. So the real question begs "where's the beef' the real facts in this video?

 

 

 

 

You are absolutely free to not trust a lot of the information. I got my info from a hodgepodge of sources: observation, devblogs, people acquainted with past CIS devs and CMs, DMs and tidbits from people currently in privateer/ST/CST programs or ex-STs, etc. Of course this means I have to pull a just trust me bro because I can't disclose who these people are or where I got the info from. 

I yapped 40 minutes impromptu, so what I say is definitely not perfect and I heavily encourage you to have your own thoughts on this issue.

[Sorry_Yodo_Only]

I also want to note that since the video came out I've gotten a lot of new info and corrections with what I say in the video, which is great. For example yesterday someone literally showed me the source code for Sicilia's firing angle, and showed me that it actually wasn't a bug but a draconian nerf to the ship in an attempt for a super easy attempt at preventing model-clipping. Essentially the deadzone for the firing elevation and angle of the guns was nerfed massively more than necessary to not clip with the secondaries, as it would be easier to provide a crap ton of 'redundancy' for model clipping rather than fine tuning the numbers to make the best turret angle possible to prevent model clipping.

A lot of interesting things and thoughts are coming up and I am very happy to see it- thanks everyone

[MBT808]

I must note that, the statement about the spanish cruisers is not entirely accurate. Zara and Asturias are quite different in terms of the overall geometry, Cataluna and Amalfi are similar but do have some distinct differences, Drake and Andalucia look nothing alike(aside from the turrets obviously), and Castilla and Napoli are also very different in terms of their hulls/superstructure(again except for the turrets).

[Sorry_Yodo_Only]

2 hours ago, MBT808 said:

I must note that, the statement about the spanish cruisers is not entirely accurate. Zara and Asturias are quite different in terms of the overall geometry, Cataluna and Amalfi are similar but do have some distinct differences, Drake and Andalucia look nothing alike(aside from the turrets obviously), and Castilla and Napoli are also very different in terms of their hulls/superstructure(again except for the turrets).

It came to my attention that up to the Michel dockyard WG and Lesta were actually sharing assets, so how much he of the Spanish cruiser line is WG or Lesta is uncertain. I can only say for sure that during this time the Bungo line was definitely Lesta made.

As such cases such as the myriad of premiums we've gotten since the Michel dockyard + Cassard and Libertad line are better examples to illustrate my point

[hipcanuck]

14 hours ago, HogHammer said:

 

Overall, I believe that the player base would be more forgiving and understanding of the situation and WG in general (my opinion).  I do think that WG sometimes underestimates the value of good communication and the goodwill it provides to the community.

 

Sometimes???? Ive been playing since late Alpha and they have NEVER had good communication with the players. Things get better for a while and then the ball gets dropped again either through translation or outright omission. WG has always kept their cards close to their chest.

[MBT808]

17 hours ago, HogHammer said:

We may joke and bitch

Looks like a malfunction occurred in the language filter there boss, we'll get that squared away so no one is aware you broke forum rules.
 

[Admiral_Karasu]

[Sailor_Moon]

On 12/22/2024 at 12:47 AM, Sorry_Yodo_Only said:

Hi everyone,

I've just made a video that discusses the WG-Lesta split where I cover a lot of topics regarding how WG has fared after April 2022, when the company split up from its Russian offices. I cover a lot of things like ship modelling, development, marketing practice, etc, and its too much to make a write-up on so I decided to yap a bit in video essay-esque form. Hopefully you find it interesting- I'd also like to hear your thoughts or what you may have to add to the issue. 

 

Just for the record, Tennessee isn't QUITE a California clone, aesthetically speaking. She actually does have a unique AA arrangement to California, as is historically accurate. Just a little nitpick, but otherwise yes, gameplay-wise she is a "Tier VIII California 2.0" in layman's term. Night and day difference in terms of effectiveness and stats, of course, because Big T is properly balanced for her tier compared to Cali.....who is sadly still anything but. 😛  

But otherwise yeah, Wargaming is seemingly producing a LOT of "clone" ships...now if only they'll make a clone Musashi (same stats, faster turret traverse, lowered citadel) at Tier X with improved secondaries to get use outta the 155s!

Also relevant:

Just my two 356mm shells ❤️

[Sorry_Yodo_Only]

1 hour ago, Sailor_Moon said:

Just for the record, Tennessee isn't QUITE a California clone, aesthetically speaking. She actually does have a unique AA arrangement to California, as is historically accurate. Just a little nitpick, but otherwise yes, gameplay-wise she is a "Tier VIII California 2.0" in layman's term. Night and day difference in terms of effectiveness and stats, of course, because Big T is properly balanced for her tier compared to Cali.....who is sadly still anything but. 😛  

But otherwise yeah, Wargaming is seemingly producing a LOT of "clone" ships...now if only they'll make a clone Musashi (same stats, faster turret traverse, lowered citadel) at Tier X with improved secondaries to get use outta the 155s!

Also relevant:

Just my two 356mm shells ❤️

You say this, but on Tennessee's devblog + the first model they had in testing, the picture/model they presented literally had California's pennant number.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Sorry_Yodo_Only