Tales of Subs in Asymmetric

[Stauffenberg44]

Doubtless other sub players have discovered this but it was a pleasant surprise for me to find that sub play works very well in Asymmetric battles. Denied the ability to appear in Operations, they can perform well here and it seems it will be a 'go-to' place for them. I went in with the assumption that boats with the most torps and fastest reloads would do better and so I used the Tier X Thrasher, Balao and U-2505, but I also added the Japanese Tier VIII I-56, a favourite of mine as this boat can launch 6 torps (non-homing with 12.5 km range) every 35 seconds. The results were interesting.

The British Thrasher seems to be ideal for this mode with 8 torps in the front and 3 in the rear and came in second with 129k dmg/23 torp hits/1 sunk. The USN Balao also good for the same reasons and got 79k dmg/16 torp hits/1 sunk. The German U-2501 suffered from only 6 in the front and the increased torp range was not much of an advantage here, with 60k dmg/13 torp hits/1 sunk.

But the winner was the Tier VIII Japanese boat which outscored the rest at 145k dmg/13 torp hits/4 sunk, which is not surprising as her unguided torps pack a large wallop with 16,367 HP damage each. Definitely happy hunting grounds for this Uboat against bots which tend to maintain steady courses, so one of her 6 torp launches obliterated a full HP bot BB (mind you I have done that in random once as well).

Of course this is just a quick appraisal but it seems about right and I was not at all surprised that I-56 beat out Tier X subs. I do expect the Thrasher to do extremely well in future which is fine as this boat has not had great reviews by some. Also of interest was that in the I-56 battle it was close at the end and I was going into a red cap to hunt down a DD there. I knew it was low HP so I surfaced close by with no other options as it was under 3 km range; however, the 140mm deck gun deals out respectable damage and the knife fight ended in my favour. The bot DD had more guns but I had more HP--25,450, the most for any sub in the game. If the bot had any real sentience behind it,s/he would have been surprised to have been sunk by a sub using surface gunfire.

 

 

[Admiral_Karasu]

6 hours ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

Doubtless other sub players have discovered this but it was a pleasant surprise for me to find that sub play works very well in Asymmetric battles. Denied the ability to appear in Operations, they can perform well here and it seems it will be a 'go-to' place for them. I went in with the assumption that boats with the most torps and fastest reloads would do better and so I used the Tier X Thrasher, Balao and U-2505, but I also added the Japanese Tier VIII I-56, a favourite of mine as this boat can launch 6 torps (non-homing with 12.5 km range) every 35 seconds. The results were interesting.

The British Thrasher seems to be ideal for this mode with 8 torps in the front and 3 in the rear and came in second with 129k dmg/23 torp hits/1 sunk. The USN Balao also good for the same reasons and got 79k dmg/16 torp hits/1 sunk. The German U-2501 suffered from only 6 in the front and the increased torp range was not much of an advantage here, with 60k dmg/13 torp hits/1 sunk.

But the winner was the Tier VIII Japanese boat which outscored the rest at 145k dmg/13 torp hits/4 sunk, which is not surprising as her unguided torps pack a large wallop with 16,367 HP damage each. Definitely happy hunting grounds for this Uboat against bots which tend to maintain steady courses, so one of her 6 torp launches obliterated a full HP bot BB (mind you I have done that in random once as well).

Of course this is just a quick appraisal but it seems about right and I was not at all surprised that I-56 beat out Tier X subs. I do expect the Thrasher to do extremely well in future which is fine as this boat has not had great reviews by some. Also of interest was that in the I-56 battle it was close at the end and I was going into a red cap to hunt down a DD there. I knew it was low HP so I surfaced close by with no other options as it was under 3 km range; however, the 140mm deck gun deals out respectable damage and the knife fight ended in my favour. The bot DD had more guns but I had more HP--25,450, the most for any sub in the game. If the bot had any real sentience behind it,s/he would have been surprised to have been sunk by a sub using surface gunfire.

 

 

Nice looking sub! Go wreak havoc with it!

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

8 hours ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

Doubtless other sub players have discovered this but it was a pleasant surprise for me to find that sub play works very well in Asymmetric battles. Denied the ability to appear in Operations, they can perform well here and it seems it will be a 'go-to' place for them. I went in with the assumption that boats with the most torps and fastest reloads would do better and so I used the Tier X Thrasher, Balao and U-2505, but I also added the Japanese Tier VIII I-56, a favourite of mine as this boat can launch 6 torps (non-homing with 12.5 km range) every 35 seconds. The results were interesting.

The British Thrasher seems to be ideal for this mode with 8 torps in the front and 3 in the rear and came in second with 129k dmg/23 torp hits/1 sunk. The USN Balao also good for the same reasons and got 79k dmg/16 torp hits/1 sunk. The German U-2501 suffered from only 6 in the front and the increased torp range was not much of an advantage here, with 60k dmg/13 torp hits/1 sunk.

But the winner was the Tier VIII Japanese boat which outscored the rest at 145k dmg/13 torp hits/4 sunk, which is not surprising as her unguided torps pack a large wallop with 16,367 HP damage each. Definitely happy hunting grounds for this Uboat against bots which tend to maintain steady courses, so one of her 6 torp launches obliterated a full HP bot BB (mind you I have done that in random once as well).

Of course this is just a quick appraisal but it seems about right and I was not at all surprised that I-56 beat out Tier X subs. I do expect the Thrasher to do extremely well in future which is fine as this boat has not had great reviews by some. Also of interest was that in the I-56 battle it was close at the end and I was going into a red cap to hunt down a DD there. I knew it was low HP so I surfaced close by with no other options as it was under 3 km range; however, the 140mm deck gun deals out respectable damage and the knife fight ended in my favour. The bot DD had more guns but I had more HP--25,450, the most for any sub in the game. If the bot had any real sentience behind it,s/he would have been surprised to have been sunk by a sub using surface gunfire.

 

 

The U-69 can do okay, too.  🙂 
https://www.devstrike.net/topic/5647-asymmetric-is-back/page/2/#findComment-88887  

The danger of the 'Bots charging and overrunning one's position is a concern, especially for submarines with comparatively low damage-per-minute output.

The I-56 and Gato can do well because of their potent torpedo warheads.
Although the I-56 needs to carefully manage her detection status and her dive-capacity.

 

Edited December 15, 2024 by Wolfswetpaws

[Stauffenberg44]

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The U-69 can do okay, too.  🙂 

lol

41 torp hits  in the U-69 is certainly "ok." I'll try the lower tiers very soon. I quite like the U-69.

Along with the I-56 heavy torps you can add the Russian S-189 whose non-homing torps pack the same punch

[Darlith]

2 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The U-69 can do okay, too.  🙂 
https://www.devstrike.net/topic/5647-asymmetric-is-back/page/2/#findComment-88887  

The danger of the 'Bots charging and overrunning one's position is a concern, especially for submarines with comparatively low damage-per-minute output.

The I-56 and Gato can do well because of their potent torpedo warheads.
Although the I-56 needs to carefully manage her detection status and her dive-capacity.

 

Correct me if I am remembering wrong but I think T6 subs would have a major advantage over their T8 or 10 counterparts since T4 bots wouldn't have ASW.

Similar to taking a T6 carrier and only having to deal with piddly T4 AA.

[Wolfswetpaws]

23 minutes ago, Darlith said:

Correct me if I am remembering wrong but I think T6 subs would have a major advantage over their T8 or 10 counterparts since T4 bots wouldn't have ASW.

Similar to taking a T6 carrier and only having to deal with piddly T4 AA.

Your thinking has some merit to it.

But, the 'Bots in Asymmetric battles also are willing to "rush" the base.
So, your thinking works better if there are 3 capture areas.
But, if there is only one base, and the bot team charges it with multiple ships, then the red-ships may arrive faster than they can be sunk.
And those that get close enough can force the submarine to exhaust its dive-capacity and then fight the submarine at close range while the submarine is surfaced.
Bad situation for the submarine.

That's why getting overrun is a concern.

Also, the 'Bots don't need ASW detection consumables.  They inherently "know" where all the ships on the map are.
They merely need to "detect" a ship in order to target the ship and fire upon it.
Programming, eh?  🙂  

And if the 'Bots have some Tier-5 ships, then there's a chance of them getting a cruiser with hydro-acoustic search on their team-roster.

[clammboy]

5 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Also, the 'Bots don't need ASW detection consumables.  They inherently "know" where all the ships on the map are.
They merely need to "detect" a ship in order to target the ship and fire upon it.
Programming, eh?  🙂  

lol and then just fire on only that one ship unti there sunk by another ship they never fire on.

 

Edited December 15, 2024 by clammboy

[Darlith]

19 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Your thinking has some merit to it.

But, the 'Bots in Asymmetric battles also are willing to "rush" the base.
So, your thinking works better if there are 3 capture areas.
But, if there is only one base, and the bot team charges it with multiple ships, then the red-ships may arrive faster than they can be sunk.
And those that get close enough can force the submarine to exhaust its dive-capacity and then fight the submarine at close range while the submarine is surfaced.
Bad situation for the submarine.

That's why getting overrun is a concern.

Also, the 'Bots don't need ASW detection consumables.  They inherently "know" where all the ships on the map are.
They merely need to "detect" a ship in order to target the ship and fire upon it.
Programming, eh?  🙂  

And if the 'Bots have some Tier-5 ships, then there's a chance of them getting a cruiser with hydro-acoustic search on their team-roster.

I was thinking more the lack of depth charges so if you can remain submerged they can't hit you. But yeah hadn't thought about how they can just be overhead too long. T5 can be an issue if you end up with some T7 friends of course. Hadn't really tried subs in asym since I generally just don't like using them much, especially against bots where you lose ping as soon as someone's secondaries clip them. 

Funny thing if the sub is better at multibase, since CVs are the opposite, they are best at defending a base and chewing up bots as they congo in. At least last time I found it that way.

[Stauffenberg44]

46 minutes ago, Darlith said:

Correct me if I am remembering wrong but I think T6 subs would have a major advantage over their T8 or 10 counterparts since T4 bots wouldn't have ASW.

Similar to taking a T6 carrier and only having to deal with piddly T4 AA.

I think Wolf has proved your point with his U-69 score. My early assumptions (# of tubes and rate of fire) were simply my first impressions. Probably a good case of "confirmation bias." 😉

[Stauffenberg44]

27 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Also, the 'Bots don't need ASW detection consumables.  They inherently "know" where all the ships on the map are.

Yes the knaves pretend to not know where you are, then focus fire with everyone if they can once they "discover" you.

[Wolfswetpaws]

45 minutes ago, clammboy said:

lol and then just fire on only that one ship unti there sunk by another ship they never fire on.

 

 

26 minutes ago, Darlith said:

I was thinking more the lack of depth charges so if you can remain submerged they can't hit you. But yeah hadn't thought about how they can just be overhead too long. T5 can be an issue if you end up with some T7 friends of course. Hadn't really tried subs in asym since I generally just don't like using them much, especially against bots where you lose ping as soon as someone's secondaries clip them. 

Funny thing if the sub is better at multibase, since CVs are the opposite, they are best at defending a base and chewing up bots as they congo in. At least last time I found it that way.

 

24 minutes ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

I think Wolf has proved your point with his U-69 score. My early assumptions (# of tubes and rate of fire) were simply my first impressions. Probably a good case of "confirmation bias." 😉

 

22 minutes ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

Yes the knaves pretend to not know where you are, then focus fire with everyone if they can once they "discover" you.

In Asymmetric battles, underestimating the 'Bots and getting caught in one of their "swarms" can send one back to port, quickly.  🙂 

It behooves players to find and sink the bots with focused firepower, one at a time and then sink the next one and rinse & repeat.
This requires time.

The 'Bot team outnumbers the players. 
If they can get close and use their torpedoes effectively, the players could be sunk or nearly sunk.
So "rushing" & "swarming" works to the 'Bot team's advantage, because they have a few ships to spare.

If the "rush" fails, then the 'Bot team loses ships and their focused firepower capability.
Or the "rush" may get "strung-out" because the differing speeds of their hulls and the terrain & pathing allowed the players to pick-off the ships at the head of the "conga line" without the Bots being able to do enough damage in return.

A consideration for Submarines is the 3 km torpedo arming distance mechanic.
If a Submarine cannot keep opponents "at arm's length", then their torpedo warhead damage output will plummet and the 'Bot ships may survive longer and get closer as the Submarine's dive-capacity dwindles.

Working as a team is important in Asymmetric battles.
It helps to spot and identify opposing ships early, and begin the "softening-up" process to whittle the Bot ship's HP and trigger their Damage Control Party usage.
Stealthy ships or the player CV performs reconnaisance and harrassment, while the Cruisers and BB's hit the closest targets of opportunity.

Sounds basic, right?
Well, yes, it is.
Yet the number of times the 'Bot teams win remains an eye-opening statistic that we can all learn from.

Respect the 'Bots.  They're playing their best (according to their programming) in order for you to have a fun game.  🙂 
Personally, I like their courage and enthusiasm.  🙂 

[clammboy]

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Respect the 'Bots.  They're playing their best (according to their programming) in order for you to have a fun game.  🙂 
Personally, I like their courage and enthusiasm.  🙂 

Yes I agree in Asymmetric battles they seem better I forgot it was asymmetric he was talking about.

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 minute ago, clammboy said:

Yes I agree in Asymmetric battles they seem better I forgot it was asymmetric he was talking about.

 

👍

[Stauffenberg44]

10 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The U-69 can do okay, too.  🙂 
https://www.devstrike.net/topic/5647-asymmetric-is-back/page/2/#findComment-88887  

I'll put this up after another round with the subs. I used all the lower tiers and they did surprisingly well (to me), as did the T 10s, but once again the Japanese I-56 came out on top. A really fine, and close game with myself and a Tirp left against 7 bots, but they got drilled having to advance through a narrow channel, just perfect for this boat using nothing but non-homing torps:

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 minute ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

I'll put this up after another round with the subs. I used all the lower tiers and they did surprisingly well (to me), as did the T 10s, but once again the Japanese I-56 came out on top. A really fine, and close game with myself and a Tirp left against 7 bots, but they got drilled having to advance through a narrow channel, just perfect for this boat using nothing but non-homing torps:

  
  
 

[Stauffenberg44]

7 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Respect the 'Bots.  They're playing their best (according to their programming) in order for you to have a fun game.  🙂 
Personally, I like their courage and enthusiasm.  🙂