Development Blog - New Ships And New Ship Concepts

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

 

He makes some great points. For instance:

• Is Sub homing torps cut of ranges fair when its the same for old bricks like Yamato and Montana as for new "DD limbal" BBs like Libertad and pretty limbal Vermont?
• What happened to low HP squishy Subs?! Now days it seems like more and more of the Subs has way better HP, more like SE Shima and above and more of them has heals
• New T9 Premium Pan American BB outmaneuvers T9 cruisers ... because reasons
• A good comparison between U-2501 and this new Submarine "Seal" homing torps far outranges any ingame airdropped ASW to what we veterans known as "Stealth firing" which was a thing back in the day where some ships gun blume was shorter than its shooting range so Zao for example had like a 2 km free fire zone where it could just sit and farm BBs without ever getting spotted. So WG took that out of the game ......For SURFACE ships ... but then re-installed it for Submarines ...??!
• A 3 km cut of range for homing torps won't matter much for non-hydro BBs when the torps its selves get spotted at 2.5 km ....... doing 90 knots....
• Hildebrand/Seal division = Your fooked and you will never see any of them          
• New Ship concept = Insta dead in any CV game

[Admiral_Karasu]

^ ^ This is how you post OP, mates. 👍🏼

[Ensign Cthulhu]

23 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

^ ^ This is how you post OP, mates. 👍🏼

It is, but it could be just a tiny bit better. @OldSchoolGaming_Youtube Could you please post links to the Dev Blog(s) he's talking about? Some of us prefer not to give traffic to Youtubers whose behaviour and attitude we find objectionable, and it would be nice to be able to address these questions directly from source rather than through the Screaming Potato Filter.

[Admiral_Karasu]

A good point too, @Ensign Cthulhu, thanks!

Providing as much information and readily available sources of information as you can, within reason, to the others is a good way to get the discussion started, on the intended track as well, it should be said.

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

Or instead of raging against Flamu...you could just post the link...

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/578

Time to take another drink, lads!

It's too early for this much alcohol...I need to go to work and find a better alternative to Titanium Dioxide for coatings.

[Wolfswetpaws]

30 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

 

He makes some great points. For instance:

• Is Sub homing torps cut of ranges fair when its the same for old bricks like Yamato and Montana as for new "DD limbal" BBs like Libertad and pretty limbal Vermont?
• What happened to low HP squishy Subs?! Now days it seems like more and more of the Subs has way better HP, more like SE Shima and above and more of them has heals
• New T9 Premium Pan American BB outmaneuvers T9 cruisers ... because reasons
• A good comparison between U-2501 and this new Submarine "Seal" homing torps far outranges any ingame airdropped ASW to what we veterans known as "Stealth firing" which was a thing back in the day where some ships gun blume was shorter than its shooting range so Zao for example had like a 2 km free fire zone where it could just sit and farm BBs without ever getting spotted. So WG took that out of the game ......For SURFACE ships ... but then re-installed it for Submarines ...??!
• A 3 km cut of range for homing torps won't matter much for non-hydro BBs when the torps its selves get spotted at 2.5 km ....... doing 90 knots....
• Hildebrand/Seal division = Your fooked and you will never see any of them          
• New Ship concept = Insta dead in any CV game

I'm not sure the X U-2501 has a deck-gun.  So, how can it produce "gun bloom" of its surfaced detection radius?
(I just double-checked.  U-2501 does not have a deck-gun.  https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:U-2501  Thus, no "gun bloom".)
So, @OldSchoolGaming_Youtube, could you please specify which Submarine(s) you are writing about?

You remember that stealth-firing was a problem, a long time ago. 
But a somewhat less "long time ago" the stealth firing problem was addressed by WG/WOWs implementing changes to eliminate a ship's detection radius being less than their "gun bloom" radius. 
Now, if they fire their guns, their gun-bloom matches their temporarily increased detection radius.  https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Detection  

Quote

Firing main guns

Firing main guns (when not in a smoke screen) will increase sea detectability ("bloom") to the current maximum range of the main guns. Air detectability will also increase by a smaller amount depending on the ship (and it is possible in this situation for air detectability range to exceed sea detectability, e.g König). If the ship is detected because of the bloom, detectability will reset after 20 seconds. However, if the ship leaves the enemy's line of sight (e.g. by hiding behind an island), detectability will reset 2 seconds after that.^[1] If the ship remains undetected at the moment of the bloom, it will reset immediately.  

In my opinion, there's a lot of "hype" in your writing.
As a bit of constructive feedback, I offer the suggestion of taking a deep breath and thinking of some game-play tactics that people could use to improve their odds of surviving a battle.  🙂 

 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

16 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

It is, but it could be just a tiny bit better. @OldSchoolGaming_Youtube Could you please post links to the Dev Blog(s) he's talking about? Some of us prefer not to give traffic to Youtubers whose behaviour and attitude we find objectionable, and it would be nice to be able to address these questions directly from source rather than through the Screaming Potato Filter.

Will do! https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/578

"Screaming Potato Filter" is much more entertaining tho ..... 😉 😄

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

5 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I'm not sure the X U-2501 has a deck-gun.  So, how can it produce "gun bloom" of its surfaced detection radius?
(I just double-checked.  U-2501 does not have a deck-gun.  https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:U-2501  Thus, no "gun bloom".)
So, @OldSchoolGaming_Youtube, could you please specify which Submarine(s) you are writing about?
 

 

48 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

• A good comparison between U-2501 and this new Submarine "Seal" homing torps far outranges any ingame airdropped ASW

No "Hype writing" needed. Just better reading.

[Jakob Knight]

27 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

 

No "Hype writing" needed. Just better reading.

 

Hmmm.  So you brought out gun bloom for a situation that had nothing to do with gun bloom.  

 

Also, torpedoes with greater ranges than surface weapons or the firing unit's detection range have been in the game for a long time now, so I don't see anything new here.

 

Finally, they failed to note the Seal's submerged speed, so we may have to wait to see what that turns out to be.  The bad Concealment is going to make this sub pretty vulnerable to DDs as well.

 

So far, Seal doesn't seem to be anything to get worked up about, considering the other things coming out.  

 

 

Edited December 6, 2024 by Jakob Knight

[Love_Ur_Cits]

Thanks for sharing @OldSchoolGaming_Youtube. I don't get to watch too many "live" streams, but I enjoy his analysis of WG's dev blog. He does it better than anyone else and brings in, as he says, "receipts" from previous statements WG has made, which I find valuable for comparing and contrasting.  His analysis and possible impact on the game are valuable.

I know many don't like his delivery, which is fine, but sometimes the truth hurts.  I personally find him more enjoyable than some official CCs (directly representing WG) who bash/shame players live on stream or get liquored up during a live broadcast to the point they are obviously drunk - but that's just me.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

For those that can't sit thru the entire 1 h 19 min video (that is quite interesting tbh) should really listen to the final summery timestamped in link below.

ESPECIALLY for those who for some reason can't understand why some of us Veterans are a bit skeptical against WG.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

11 minutes ago, Love_Ur_Cits said:

Thanks for sharing @OldSchoolGaming_Youtube. I don't get to watch too many "live" streams, but I enjoy his analysis of WG's dev blog. He does it better than anyone else and brings in, as he says, "receipts" from previous statements WG has made, which I find valuable for comparing and contrasting.  His analysis and possible impact on the game are valuable.

I know many don't like his delivery, which is fine, but sometimes the truth hurts.  I personally find him more enjoyable than some official CCs (directly representing WG) who bash/shame players live on stream or get liquored up during a live broadcast to the point they are obviously drunk - but that's just me.

10/10!  🙌 🙌 🙌

Couldn't have said it better myself! 👏

 

Also, some CC´s seem to have their bow so far up WeeGee´s Aft that they feel like sock puppets for the WG community managers. And some of the rest is just bad with poor insight and experience. WG lost soooo much value and talent during the "Big CC Walkout".

Edited December 6, 2024 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube

[Ensign Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

For instance:

• Is Sub homing torps cut of ranges fair when its the same for old bricks like Yamato and Montana as for new "DD limbal" BBs like Libertad and pretty limbal Vermont?
• What happened to low HP squishy Subs?! Now days it seems like more and more of the Subs has way better HP, more like SE Shima and above and more of them has heals
• New T9 Premium Pan American BB outmaneuvers T9 cruisers ... because reasons
• A good comparison between U-2501 and this new Submarine "Seal" homing torps far outranges any ingame airdropped ASW to what we veterans known as "Stealth firing" which was a thing back in the day where some ships gun blume was shorter than its shooting range so Zao for example had like a 2 km free fire zone where it could just sit and farm BBs without ever getting spotted. So WG took that out of the game ......For SURFACE ships ... but then re-installed it for Submarines ...??!
• A 3 km cut of range for homing torps won't matter much for non-hydro BBs when the torps its selves get spotted at 2.5 km ....... doing 90 knots....
• Hildebrand/Seal division = Your fooked and you will never see any of them          
• New Ship concept = Insta dead in any CV game

I'll address your points in order.

1) I will ask a question in return, which is: "Do you think current homing cut-off ranges are adequate for the old bricks?" If the answer is yes, the extra nimbleness of the Libertad is not as much of a factor.

2) I agree they could be squishier. Except when I'm driving them, and then of course I want them tougher! The balance on the heal is that it can only be used on the surface. The problem with submerged submarine speeds being competitive with destroyers is that they need to be unrealistically high in order for the subs to get anything done - a product of the more general distortions of time and place with which the whole game is (of necessity) infected.

3) Which cruisers does she outmanoeuvre? Some of them, particularly the Russians, are very long and known to be quite awkward for a cruiser.

4 and 5) Seal's homing torps have a very long reload compared to most, which is supposed to be her balancing factor. Obviously that cutoff range vs. detectability and speed is something that might be addressed in initial testing, so I'm going to wait for further details on that one. The one good thing here is that by the time you can see those torps, they've already lost lock. 

6) I have the Hildebrand. I bought her so that I could have a valid opinion on her with all the controversy going around. She's more than just a CV with a heavy defensive armament. The torpedo planes are very fragile to even half-decent AA, and the Hildebrand that hides and tries to play at being a CV is going to be a detriment to its team. 

7) The new ship concepts are for a special mode, so this vulnerability you claim is going to be VERY dependent on what that special mode is and what they will be fighting against. We have NO details on that yet, so any further meaningful comment on that is impossible until we know more. 

 

8 minutes ago, Jakob Knight said:

So you brought out gun bloom for a situation that had nothing to do with gun bloom.  

He was drawing a parallel between a sub with homing torps being able to outrange any ASW vs. the old Stealth Firing mechanism. Ultimately that's going to be dependent on the sub being able to spot the enemy ship beyond its ASW range, which (depending on the sub and what depth it's at) might be trickier than he gives credit for.

[Wolfswetpaws]

48 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

1 hour ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

• A good comparison between U-2501 and this new Submarine "Seal" homing torps far outranges any ingame airdropped ASW

No "Hype writing" needed. Just better reading.

Thanks for making an effort to clarify.

That said, as @Jakob Knight pointed out, numerous Submarines in-game have had primary or alternate torpedo ranges that are greater than the Depth-charge Air-strike range of ships in their match-making bracket.
It is not new. 
Whether or not it is something to be upset about?  I'll leave that judgement to each player's discretion.  Personally, I'm not freaking-out about it.
Also, the main-guns are effective on surfaced submarines.
So, getting detected while surfaced or at periscope depth remains risky for a submarine which is in-range of a ship's main-guns loaded with H.E. projectiles.

Another thing you wrote...
"A 3 km cut of range for homing torps won't matter much for non-hydro BBs when the torps its selves get spotted at 2.5 km ....... doing 90 knots...."

Need we remind the audience that pushing forward in a battleship without screening by one's team-mates is a risky proposition?
This is the same Potato Quality that got his North Carolina sunk by a DD which was advertising their presence, right?
My point is that one plays as a member of a team. 
Good teamwork is beneficial in anti-submarine-warfare, in my opinion (derived from my experiences).
I don't feel we can say that submarines are over-powered merely because some people play poorly and get their aft handed to them with a shipping label indicating the address of their home port.  🙂 

Yes.  Torpedoes have a "homing cut-off" distance which depends upon the ship type which is their target. 
People can find the table of distances via this link.
https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Torpedoes#Acoustic_Homing_Torpedoes  

And Submarine torpedoes have reduced damage until they pass the 3 km of travel threshold.
"All submarine torpedoes deal reduced damage within the first 3 kilometers they travel. Up to 2.9 km, they only deal 10% damage, while from 2.9 to 3 km, their damage scales up to 100%.[2]"
https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Torpedoes#Acoustic_Homing_Torpedoes    

Thanks for sharing your passion.  🙂 

[Love_Ur_Cits]

17 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Need we remind the audience that pushing forward in a battleship without screening by one's team-mates is a risky proposition?

I've NEVER seen that (lol).

I might steal that line for chat.

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

1 hour ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

Hmmm.  So you brought out gun bloom for a situation that had nothing to do with gun bloom.  

 

Also, torpedoes with greater ranges than surface weapons or the firing unit's detection range have been in the game for a long time now, so I don't see anything new here.

 

Finally, they failed to note the Seal's submerged speed, so we may have to wait to see what that turns out to be.  The bad Concealment is going to make this sub pretty vulnerable to DDs as well.

 

So far, Seal doesn't seem to be anything to get worked up about, considering the other things coming out.  

 

 

I wasn't aware that "A good comparison" was so hard to understand.

In this case the comparison to the old pretty broken "stealth fire mechanic" is that if more and more Subs in the future will get homing torp ranges well above the range for the max Air ASW (11km) then these subs will pretty much be sitting in the same position as the old Zao for example and just spam damage upon them while they can do fook all in return. There is really no logic to why ASW at T10 couldn't have same range as the longest-range homing torps (14 km) except for just "WG reasons" and their BS to always treat some classes different. ASW is supposed to be a counter, but in this case its more like "for show".

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

51 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

numerous Submarines in-game have had primary or alternate torpedo ranges that are greater than the Depth-charge Air-strike range of ships in their match-making bracket.

Alternate torpedoes or "dumb fire torps" isn't the issue here since for instance GATOs very potent 16.5 km range is still dumb fire, just like Gearings 16,5 km or Asashio´s 20 km, they dont home in on a single target, which it seems like more and more homing sub torps will.

The 2501 has been in the game a while but if this is the route WG is going with the Subs homing ranges they are pretty much and pretty clear implementing a new Stealth fire mechanic like old Zao version (and I HOPE I dont have to explain this comparison again) into the game to favor ....... drumroll .... on of its "protected classes"!

Which for many Veterans used to play PvP in Randoms using "Regular surface ships" is somewhat strange move.

But then again, its WG we speak of .... the guys who said that putting both radars and smoke on same ship would be bonkers .... and then released Black, Belfast, Svea, and the T10 Swedish DD with radar/smoke.

51 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Another thing you wrote...
"A 3 km cut of range for homing torps won't matter much for non-hydro BBs when the torps its selves get spotted at 2.5 km ....... doing 90 knots...."

Need we remind the audience that pushing forward in a battleship without screening by one's team-mates is a risky proposition?
 

I really wonder how often you see teammates actively working to keep you safe in this game or teamwork in this game at all. But even IF you had the best freackin team in the entire world, my point still stands. It doesn't matter much with a cut of distance of 3 km if they get spotted at 2.1km coming at 90 knots. Do you know how slow a "normal" BB turns?

 

When I play as a sub I always try and catch the enemy sub in my sub radar. I radar him and then I spam "Target" on him in chat and sometimes I get 1 out of 4-5 ships to even send ASW, and this is during some 30-40 seconds. And all this is to THEIR benefit, I have no problem with the sub, its not me hes torp spamming. So not even in situations where I try and get my team to get rid of something pestering them I can get them to teamwork. Thats the level I see each game pretty much.

[Wolfswetpaws]

40 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Alternate torpedoes or "dumb fire torps" isn't the issue here since for instance GATOs very potent 16.5 km range is still dumb fire, just like Gearings 16,5 km or Asashio´s 20 km, they dont home in on a single target, which it seems like more and more homing sub torps will.

The 2501 has been in the game a while but if this is the route WG is going with the Subs homing ranges they are pretty much and pretty clear implementing a new Stealth fire mechanic like old Zao version (and I HOPE I dont have to explain this comparison again) into the game to favor ....... drumroll .... on of its "protected classes"!

Which for many Veterans used to play PvP in Randoms using "Regular surface ships" is somewhat strange move.

But then again, its WG we speak of .... the guys who said that putting both radars and smoke on same ship would be bonkers .... and then released Black, Belfast, Svea, and the T10 Swedish DD with radar/smoke.

I really wonder how often you see teammates actively working to keep you safe in this game or teamwork in this game at all. But even IF you had the best freackin team in the entire world, my point still stands. It doesn't matter much with a cut of distance of 3 km if they get spotted at 2.1km coming at 90 knots. Do you know how slow a "normal" BB turns?

 

When I play as a sub I always try and catch the enemy sub in my sub radar. I radar him and then I spam "Target" on him in chat and sometimes I get 1 out of 4-5 ships to even send ASW, and this is during some 30-40 seconds. And all this is to THEIR benefit, I have no problem with the sub, its not me hes torp spamming. So not even in situations where I try and get my team to get rid of something pestering them I can get them to teamwork. Thats the level I see each game pretty much.

Quote:  "Do you know how slow a "normal" BB turns?"
Answer:  Oh, yes.  Yes, I do.  🙂 
My Mutsu has earned the nickname "Dances with Torpedoes" from the earliest days of Submarine Testing.  🙂 
My BB's are expected to "wiggle" as best they can, and I routinely push 'em to the limits of their maneuvering evenlopes.

I've even written about doing so, in a way, in a different topic on the old forum, named "If our commanders could talk..."

Spoiler

Personal Log February Eleventh in the year 2023
The Iwami and her crew have completed the two "potential damage" missions assigned to us.
Other ships and crews were contenders for the assignment.
But, among the high tier Battleships, especially those equipped with torpedoes, such as theKii, the Tirpitz, the Odin and the Pommern, the Iwami was deemed most suitable by theAlpha of the Port.
This is the most action we've seen in our careers, so far.
Numerous Co-op battles were entered into, during a number of days.
I'm still feeling sore from all the "aft wiggling" maneuvers we did.
In the past I was Captain of the Asashio and only saw occasional forays.
Since becoming the Captain of the Iwami, the duty schedule has been only marginally morebusy, until this assignment.
While I can't say that we endured what the Izumo and her crew survived, it does feel likewe've emerged from a "cage match" marathon.
Tonight, the Alpha of the Port is coming aboard and is treating us to a tea ceremony followedby a saké tasting.
It seems the Alpha is at least as pleased with the ship & crew's performance as I am.
Signed,
ARP Musashi
Kaigun Daisa in the Fleet of the Port
P.S. This assignment prompted me to consider the benefits of Yoga.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And, more recently and on this forum, a  post referencing the copied/pasted text from the old forum post (above).
https://www.devstrike.net/topic/40-if-our-captains-could-talk-again/page/2/#comment-3798  

Edited to add a link to this post, too.  
https://www.devstrike.net/topic/40-if-our-captains-could-talk-again/page/11/#findComment-74833

 

As for teamwork, I've learned that being nice to my team-mates, and communicating with them (and giving them enough time to read and react to the chat) has often provided good results.
Not always, but some success is better than zero success, eh?  🙂 

Edited December 6, 2024 by Wolfswetpaws

[Ensign Cthulhu]

4 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

My Mutsu has earned the nickname "Dances with Torpedoes" from the earliest days of Submarine Testing.

A name I would suggest modifying to "Dances with Sea Wolves".🐺

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

A name I would suggest modifying to "Dances with Sea Wolves".🐺

Nah.