Potato Quality's recommendation for the T10 prize: Schlieffen.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o4PQlYf6kA

Because let's face it, unless you're already so close to grinding her out it doesn't matter, why wouldn't you?

Actually, jumping straight into Tier 10 and being able to skip the entire grind is something PQ absolutely salivates over in this video, and pace that part of the playerbase which absolutely hates people having access to too-rapid progression to top(-ish) tier, I can hardly blame him. I'd want to grab her if I hadn't already finished the grind, although I already have multiple T10s in my port and getting out of my depth isn't so much of an issue.

She's death on the waves for sure, and PQ shows off all her strengths to best advantage, going into great detail as to how he gets the best out of the ship, the captain and the build . I have some issues with what he recommends for the latter, but things like IFHE vs not and exactly which skills/modules to take for the best survivability are so contentious among some sections of the playerbase that we'll just chalk that one up to personal taste. 

He doesn't shy away from her weaknesses, though, and chief among these is that unlike the original line of German BBs, she doesn't have a turtleback armoured deck and it's considerably easier to citadel her. In his experience she's tankier than she appears to be on paper, but this might not be everyone's mileage; drive with care! One of his excerpts shows exactly what happens when you throw caution to the wind in Randoms, and he gets dumpstered for it as one would expect.   He specifically cites this as an example of what NOT to do.  He does give examples of modes in which this approach DOES work, and to those I would add co-op. From personal experience she is god's gift to Co-op more than any other ship since Smolensk, and the grind starts becoming fun at T7 and only gets better from there.

It's a very well balanced review of a ship which is remarkably powerful for being available free to everyone - for a lot of effort in usual gameplay; for a fair bit less effort if you put in some work over the last few patches to be able to unlock her. If you don't have her yet and you're into battleships at all, you'd be foolish not to keep her high on the preference list for this event. Then save up your coal and grab Lutjens if you don't already have him, stick him in the Schlieffen and go to town. 

10/10 for ship and review. Go watch.

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Go watch.

Nah.
I've already welcomed a Schlieffen to my Port, and have her fully outfitted with hull modules and her 10-point Captain has been trained in skills of my choosing.

[Frostbow]

2 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Go watch.

Nah.

I've already welcomed a Schlieffen to my Port. She now has more than 3,700,000 Ship XP, with Lutjens at 21 points in command.

[Sumseaman]

5 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

 salivates over in this video

Mmmm I approve.

Yes I watched this knowing there would be a goop tip here and there for playing Schlieffen. A great one was that once you are within very close range to remove manual secondaries to avoid shatters on the hull and land more on the superstructure. Obviously this applies to all secondary use though I haven't played many so really didn't know.

[invicta2012]

I got it. There wasn't a lot of competition. And then reset the whole line, so I haven't played it. 🙂

The Lutens/Schlieffen combo appears to be one of WGs great balancing mistakes of our time - certainly if it's being compared to Smolensk, any how. Does the convenience of having an OP ship/captain combo to use in PVE when grinding event loot mean no-one cares too much about Random games any more?

[Itwastuesday]

Dunno. I wouldn't recommend it unless you have a 21pts captain to shove around. Though maybe get it and immediately reset and start grinding.

[ShasoDan]

At present I do only have one 6 ship at tier and 21 on lower tiers. I was tempted to take the Schlieffen because of her good reputation. But as I am not a BB fan, I decided to take the Shimakaze. If I will ever play a tier 10 ship in the coming weeks, I will at least have one that can doge the shots aimed at me because of my bad positioning.

The grind was remarkable easy, even for me with highest tier 5. It was just time to invest.

Edited December 6, 2024 by ShasoDan

[Admiral_Karasu]

I still haven't decided myself. It's a coin toss between the Schlieffen or the GL for me. Now, it's not that I would want a tier 10 cruiser, but I'm pretty sure that getting it like this is the only available option as I don't fancy the chance to grind my way there the usual way. Whereas, hypothetically speaking, I might be more likely to that with the Schlieffen line at some later point. At this time, it's not like I have much need for either, and no urgent need whatsoever except for the snowflake.

[Project45_Opytny]

9 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Actually, jumping straight into Tier 10 and being able to skip the entire grind is something PQ absolutely salivates over in this video

If a player has established himself/herself well enough and unlocked superships, with some additional credits he/she can even directly jump to a supership (Yamagiri or HMS Eagle R05).

10 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

that part of the playerbase which absolutely hates people having access to too-rapid progression to top(-ish) tier

There are already complaints about "Gunboat 17900 Shimakaze", "Audacious whose pilots are being trained literally on the fly", "Schlieffen that would rush the first group of enemies spawned and got melted" ruining Operations.

The most outrageous tale I met is that a rookie who obtained Audacious in this way doesn't even manage to find out how to launch CV air groups, and thus sailed his shiny CV directly to the front (perhaps with the mindset that somehow things would work anyway), giving an easy CV first blood in the process.

10 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

I have some issues with what he recommends for the latter, but things like IFHE vs not and exactly which skills/modules to take for the best survivability are so contentious among some sections of the playerbase that we'll just chalk that one up to personal taste. 

There are indeed some unorthodox opinions on how to build Schlieffen, like some sort of "one shot" build that abandons superintendent ("that the ship would be used almost exclusively in Special modes only and just optimize for those"). IFHE is a must though, that's what marks the comparative advantage of German brawlers over their American counterparts.

10 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

she doesn't have a turtleback armoured deck and it's considerably easier to citadel her

Not only without turtleback, she has a citadel that is exposed above her waterline in contrast to her predecessors.

Back in summer this year when discussing about the then work in process Pan-American BBs I have said that Sinop and Shilieffen has both proved that brawlers can be viable even without idiot-proof citadel protection. In hindsight WG has in effect forgotten what they has said before about the new branch, that may also be argued that besides being overpowered it's also unhistorical.

Being obviously a less efficient design real life-wise comparing with her historical basis, G3 battlecruiser, Los Andes managed to be only a little slower than what has been the magnum opus of World War I British naval architecture while having better armor protection. Also, besides the technical aspects, taking historical examples of exported and offered Dreadnought designs (that many share 9-inch belts) it would be illogical for the British to offer such a well protected design.

2 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

The Lutens/Schlieffen combo appears to be one of WGs great balancing mistakes of our time

With Los Andes and Libertad running amok I doubt if this can still be described as such.

[Admiral_Karasu]

@Project45_Opytny Would you say that the Schlieffen is almost some kind of poisoned apple?

[Project45_Opytny]

1 minute ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

@Project45_Opytny Would you say that the Schlieffen is almost some kind of poisoned apple?

It can be said as such, that even before the launch of Pan-American battleships, after the initial "honeymoon" waned there have been arguments that Schlieffen is as much a deceptive trap as an effective brawling machine owing to her significant limits regarding survivability.

 

"In some ways the ship just resembles German military of the World Wars as a whole: either making a surprise flank attack to settle the battle in one move, or being worn down through being kited, head on head attacks and/or long range battles of attrition."

[Admiral_Karasu]

7 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

It can be said as such, that even before the launch of Pan-American battleships, after the initial "honeymoon" waned there have been arguments that Schlieffen is as much a deceptive trap as an effective brawling machine owing to her significant limits regarding survivability.

 

"In some ways the ship just resembles German military of the World Wars as a whole: either making a surprise flank attack to settle the battle in one move, or being worn down through being kited, head on head attacks and/or long range battles of attrition."

But... doesn't at least the latter part of what you said apply to all the BB's in the game? They are soft as butter under the less than ideal conditions. And melt even faster.

[MBT808]

2 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

The Lutens/Schlieffen combo appears to be one of WGs great balancing mistakes of our time - certainly if it's being compared to Smolensk, any how. Does the convenience of having an OP ship/captain combo to use in PVE when grinding event loot mean no-one cares too much about Random games any more?

Until Libertad came along with the panam captain that makes schlieffen and lutjens looks underpowered.

The fact that Libertad can achieve 1.3m* DPM on secondaries alone should never what gotten past testing.

*No, this isn’t hyperbole, she can achieve this in arms race with a full secondary build, with the special captain it goes even higher. The 234mm’s with the captain in arms race can deal 6517 damage per shell with a 3.4s reload with the funny button.

Edited December 6, 2024 by MBT808

[Project45_Opytny]

1 minute ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

But... doesn't at least the latter part of what you said apply to all the BB's in the game? They are soft as butter under the less than ideal conditions. And melt even faster.

Schlieffen has extremities plating that can be overmatched by a large number of BB AP, has Fast DCP and Repair Party with one shot less from the beginning that puts her in a greater disadvantage regarding battles of attrition. And she is designated as a brawler.

If all BBs are vulnerable Schlieffen is among the more vulnerable ones.

[Nevermore135]

1 hour ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

I still haven't decided myself. It's a coin toss between the Schlieffen or the GL for me. Now, it's not that I would want a tier 10 cruiser, but I'm pretty sure that getting it like this is the only available option as I don't fancy the chance to grind my way there the usual way. Whereas, hypothetically speaking, I might be more likely to that with the Schlieffen line at some later point. At this time, it's not like I have much need for either, and no urgent need whatsoever except for the snowflake.

As someone who has ground to GL without using FXP, I wouldn’t look forward to doing so again. Outside of my general opinion that the ships in the line sacrifice too much for the airstrike gimmick, the tier VIII and IX grind was not a pleasant experience for me. Both ships have CA-caliber guns (203mm and 240mm) but are saddled with CB/CC dispersion and 60s burn times.

If that is what you decide on, I don’t think you’ll regret it. The Schlieffen line is also a very comfortable grind in Operations nowadays. A while back when WG offered discount bonus packages in-game (I think it was around the Anniversary event) I had just reset the line for the RB and was able to grind back to tier X for the discount in about a week and a half without too much effort.

[Admiral_Karasu]

@Project45_Opytny @Nevermore135 Looks like it's settled for me then, cheers!

[Ensign Cthulhu]

2 hours ago, MBT808 said:

The fact that Libertad can achieve 1.3m*

May I humbly suggest that you put this in numbers for clarity? You know that you mean "thousand" and I know that you mean "thousand", but for a lot of the English-speaking world, m = million. This abbreviation might leave some people who don't live in Continental Europe scratching their heads!

1 hour ago, Nevermore135 said:

As someone who has ground to GL without using FXP, I wouldn’t look forward to doing so again.

When they announced the Gouden as the final ship in this event, I winced a little because I hoped they would select a cruiser I already had in port. That being said, with the KOTS camo for her being such a recent addition, perhaps she was the obvious choice. I ended up picking the Balao, because I was looking at a little under 300K grinding out the JDW (which I've only just started on) vs. over 400,000 to get the Balao, and I do much better even in Dutch cruisers than in subs. What clinched it is that the Balao has modules to research and she was delivered with those already fitted, so there was no more work to do. Gouden doesn't have any upgrades to research once she's in port.

My first battle in the Balao, with no modules and only three points with the delivery captain, went so well that I don't regret my choice. 

2 hours ago, Project45_Opytny said:

one shot less from the beginning that puts her in a greater disadvantage regarding battles of attrition. And she is designated as a brawler.

Co-op monster for me. The short battles mean that I'm never likely to run out of DCP charges, and being blown clean out of the water is more common than burning or flooding out.

 

2 hours ago, Project45_Opytny said:

"In some ways the ship just resembles German military of the World Wars as a whole: either making a surprise flank attack to settle the battle in one move, or being worn down through being kited, head on head attacks and/or long range battles of attrition."

The German Army in both wars had a reputation for being able to take a lot of attrition before it folded. Schlieffen has inbuilt limitations on that, specifically the limited DCP charges.

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

2 hours ago, MBT808 said:

The fact that Libertad can achieve 1.3m*

May I humbly suggest that you put this in numbers for clarity? You know that you mean "thousand" and I know that you mean "thousand", but for a lot of the English-speaking world, m = million. This abbreviation might leave some people who don't live in Continental Europe scratching their heads!

I interpreted the "1.3m" to be One-point-three-million.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

2 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I interpreted the "1.3m" to be One-point-three-million.

1.3 million damage per minute would be awesome, terrifying and... you know, I'm absolutely sure the devs moved the sliders up that far in the closed server for sh*ts and giggles just to see what would happen. But no, it's M for Mille (thousand), just like in Roman times. My ancestors continue to exert their influence.

[Kruzenstern]

I picked the GL because

A: I already had Schlieffen, reset the line and am close to it again, one of the most pleasant grinds in operations with Zieten being as OP as it is and the tier7 and even the tier9 not being bad either

B: The dutch cruiser line is a horrible grind I never would have undertaken, so GL is almost a gold ship for me. Plus with the legendary module and a division there are some fun bombing shenanigans to be made with my two buddies who also got her.

Basically I would say that while Schlieffen is the better ship by far (she is still an absolute monster in ops), GL is the better pick. Because the road to Schlieffen is a german Autobahn and you get a line of BMWs and Mercedes to pass it, while the road to GL is a dutch mud trail and you don't even get a proper bike.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2024 by Kruzenstern

[Kruzenstern]

7 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

1.3 million damage per minute would be awesome, terrifying and... you know, I'm absolutely sure the devs moved the sliders up that far in the closed server for sh*ts and giggles just to see what would happen. But no, it's M for Mille (thousand), just like in Roman times. My ancestors continue to exert their influence.

And yet 1.3 million is most certainly what he meant. Libertad has 294K (as in 294.000) already as it is. With all the buffs from modules, captain, f-button  and arms race buffs, of course it will be 1.3 million. 1.3 thousand would be ridiculously low?

Edited December 6, 2024 by Kruzenstern

[MBT808]

59 minutes ago, Kruzenstern said:

And yet 1.3 million is most certainly what he meant. Libertad has 294K (as in 294.000) already as it is. With all the buffs from modules, captain, f-button  and arms race buffs, of course it will be 1.3 million. 1.3 thousand would be ridiculously low?

It is 1,300,000 DPM between the 234mm and 127mm mounts at a full build minus the special captain and both reload and damage in arms race 3/3. That’s per broadside. Libertad is basically Thunderers secondary cousin.

With the captain and his talent activated it exceeds that.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

2 hours ago, Kruzenstern said:

And yet 1.3 million is most certainly what he meant.

 

1 hour ago, MBT808 said:

It is 1,300,000 DPM between the 234mm and 127mm mounts at a full build

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReOO3xLCTGI

.

Oops.

[Sailor_Moon]

3 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

1.3 million damage per minute would be awesome, terrifying and... you know, I'm absolutely sure the devs moved the sliders up that far in the closed server for sh*ts and giggles just to see what would happen. But no, it's M for Mille (thousand), just like in Roman times. My ancestors continue to exert their influence.

Just chiming in here, but MBT808 CLEARLY meant that Libertad secondaries are in fact hitting at 1.3 million DPM, because 1.3k (or 1.3 MILLE, which is not normally used for values like this, to my knowledge) DPM literally makes zero sense for basically ANY ship in the game. You have to also realize that DPM is the theoretical maximum value which does not take into account ANY ingame mechanics and assumes 100% hit accuracy at the maximum possible shell damage. So yes, it CAN (in theory) hit absurdly high numbers like that. 

See here for an example of absurdly high DPM (in theory):

Yep, Schlieffen! Not that Schlieffen will do this level of DPM ingame, but THEORETICALLY, yes, her DPM is *THAT* high. 👀

And of course, the same goes for Libertad.

^{And again, this is a solid reminder of WHY DPM isn't the be all end all of main battery performance parameters....}

Edited December 6, 2024 by Sailor_Moon

[Wolfswetpaws]

For me, it helps to remember that DPM is an acronym for Damage Per Minute.
And a lot can happen in 60 seconds.

Also, thank you to @Sailor_Moon for reminding everyone that DPM is a calculated value, using the best possible damage per projectile if all fired projectiles actually hit a target.
The "real world in-game" results are normally going to produce lower values, because of the number of missed shots and the time of exposure (to the firepower) is often less than a minute.  🙂