I have seen it all now!

[AdmiralThunder]

 

WG is going to make Vanguard into a T9 Pan American BB brawler LOLOLOLOL. Don't get me wrong Vanguard is an "ok" ship but it is NOT a brawler and nothing they are doing will make it one. It is hilarious. I will get the ship for LOL's but no way it actually excels at the role. Just not buying into it. 

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/578

Quote

Pan-American Battleship Valparaiso, Tier IX

In the late 1950s, the British and Chilean governments discussed the possibility of selling the last British battleship, HMS Vanguard, to Chile. If the deal had gone through, the Chilean Navy would have been replenished with the most powerful ship in its history.

The ship is named after the second-largest Chilean city, which hosts a seaport and a naval base. The name is inherited from one of the first Chilean ironclads, which was commissioned in the mid-1870s.

With a modernized Vanguard hull as a basis, Valparaiso features a relatively light main battery for a Tier IX battleship of four twin 381mm turrets. Despite the low caliber, small number of guns, and subpar accuracy, Valparaiso still packs a formidable punch: a high rate of fire and improved ricochet angles on her AP shells ensure that her main battery remains a significant threat, although her lack of HE shells will limit her versatility. Additionally, her secondary battery has received an overhaul, consisting of four twin 127mm/54 caliber turrets per side. While she may not have a wide array of secondary gun barrels, a high rate of fire and good accuracy will ensure sustained damage output. Valparaiso's improved acceleration gives her an additional edge in handling, while Specialized Repair Teams with a fast action time gives her a strong boost to survivability. Also, in comparison to Vanguard, her central deck and side plating have increased thickness, which will noticeably boost her protection against HE shells. Combat Instructions are the lynchpin in her kit: either charged up gradually through secondary hits or all at once by sinking an opponent, Valparaiso's Combat Instructions give her a massive boost to consumable cooldown and will allow her to rapidly heal while active.

In battle, Valparaiso wants to get up close and personal to put her secondary battery to work; however, as with any battleship, picking the right moment is key. Combat Instructions offer an incredible boost in survivability - given this, captains may wish to send one of the opponents to the bottom of the sea to instantly charge their Instructions before moving into secondary battery range. Otherwise, look for opportunities in the middle to late game to close with isolated enemies.

Please note that the model for this ship is still being worked on, so we'll show her in a later publication.

 

[Itwastuesday]

Hah! Low number of 380 peashooters with bad accuracy. SOLD! 

[Aethervox]

I saw it all (or most of it) in a random battle I played earlier today. The dismal state of the player base (essentially). Terminal decline, really. Sad.

War Failing blood sucking is what it is now.

[Admiral_Karasu]

Would this be good for a lighthouse build?

[pepe_trueno]

to be fair its stated that the armor and mobility are getting an upgrade so this can end being a ship with bad firepower but crazy good survivability. Only time will say.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

9 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Don't get me wrong Vanguard is an "ok" ship but it is NOT a brawler and nothing they are doing will make it one.

It does seem to have a rather low number of secondary barrels, but if you pay attention you'll note that they're 5"54 twins, not 5"/38s. So in other words, you could be looking at a Vanguard with two thirds of an Austin nailed to each side.

I wouldn't put it past the main battery AP to actually be decent either. 25 seconds at Tier 9 = 22 seconds with MBM3 in slot six. Same number and calibre of guns as Jean Bart at the same tier, with enhanced ricochet angles? Could be nasty.

In brawls, your combat instructions will recharge at 4% per secondary hit and 100% per kill, and your DCP and heal (which have identical cooldowns) will be back in 5% of the usual time; i.e. in FOUR SECONDS. Fires won't stick if you're getting hits, and neither will pings. 

I think this thing is going to be very, VERY nasty.

Edited November 22, 2024 by Ensign Cthulhu

[AdmiralThunder]

6 hours ago, pepe_trueno said:

to be fair its stated that the armor and mobility are getting an upgrade so this can end being a ship with bad firepower but crazy good survivability. Only time will say.

It says the central deck armor and some of the side plate is enhanced to be better vs HE. That isn’t a lot of help for a brawler. And a 34MM deck and upper belt is enhanced over 32MM but that isn’t a massive upgrade; just technically accurate. WG is like a used car salesman at times so I want to see what the +MM is before getting excited.

As far as handling it is just acceleration so I assume built in propulsion mod like Ipiranga, Los Andes, and Libertad. Vanguard already had amazing handling with a base 9.7 sec rudder. I don’t see faster acceleration making a big difference.

It also won’t have any big secondaries like the others. Just 8X2 127MM that only pen 21MM (26MM w/ IFHE) with 4 turrets per side. ROF is good and they will have improved dispersion but they are mostly fire starters. 

Also, look at Vanguard in port (if you can). There is a big boxy section of the hull between the front and rear secondary turrets. It is going to make angling and using them almost impossible. To get all 4 turrets going will require a lot of side being exposed and with Vanguard’s citadel that is dangerous.

The ship’s funny button is based on secondary hits (and kills). It is going to be very risky trying to get close in this ship. The hull is not a good one for brawling unless they made changes we don’t know about like lowering the citadel.

Edited November 22, 2024 by AdmiralThunder

[AdmiralThunder]

4 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

It does seem to have a rather low number of secondary barrels, but if you pay attention you'll note that they're 5"54 twins, not 5"/38s. So in other words, you could be looking at a Vanguard with two thirds of an Austin nailed to each side.

I wouldn't put it past the main battery AP to actually be decent either. 25 seconds at Tier 9 = 22 seconds with MBM3 in slot six. Same number and calibre of guns as Jean Bart at the same tier, with enhanced ricochet angles? Could be nasty.

In brawls, your combat instructions will recharge at 4% per secondary hit and 100% per kill, and your DCP and heal (which have identical cooldowns) will be back in 5% of the usual time; i.e. in FOUR SECONDS. Fires won't stick if you're getting hits, and neither will pings. 

I think this thing is going to be very, VERY nasty.

The 127MM guns still only pen 21MM regardless of which version they are. They still only get to 26MM w/ IFHE which at T9 is not worth it.  Look at Vanguard in port and see the big boxy piece of hull between the front and rear secondary turrets. You are going to have to show a lot of side to use them all at once which is risky due to it having a big citadel that is easy to hit (devblog does not mention a lowered citadel so…). 

I would have preferred they keep Vanguard’s 8X133M guns and just buff ROF. They have more alpha and 22MM of pen base which means 27MM w/ IFHE. THAT would be more than a fire starter.

Jean Bart has 8 guns but in a 2X4 setup that are all forward. This ship will have 4X2 with 2 front and 2 rear turrets. The turret angles on Vanguard are HORRIBLE. You pretty much have to go broadside to use the rear ones. Jean Bart is not the same or a good comparison.

22 sec reload is nice but 381MM has very little overmatch. Improved AP angles will help some but not a ton. Also, it won’t have HE and that is going to hurt (especially facing SuperShips). Vanguard relies heavily on HE to do damage. Improved AP pen isn’t going to make up for what it loses nor will a small handful of fast ROF 21MM pen secondaries.

This ship will also have less range (just 18.7km) than Vanguard (20km) and a much worse sigma (1.7 vs 2.0 for Vanguard). 4X2 low caliber guns that require almost broadside to use them all and throw in short range and horrible sigma = crap main guns.

I don’t see anything about this ship being nasty outside of its potential survivability if the player knows how to angle and manage DCP/heal. The funny button plus 6 base “super” heals is insane. However, I expect the # of heals to be nerfed and/or changed to regular like Vanguard. That is all that is nasty on this thing. 

Edited November 22, 2024 by AdmiralThunder

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

WG doesn't actually know what the term brawling means in this game.

Heck, most of the player base remaining doesn't know either.

It looks interesting, but not a ship I want to expose to enemy fire for long.

Stop worrying about WGs marketing spin and just look at the ship and decide what you think it can do...

[Admiral_Karasu]

22 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

WG doesn't actually know what the term brawling means in this game.

Heck, most of the player base remaining doesn't know either.

It looks interesting, but not a ship I want to expose to enemy fire for long.

Stop worrying about WGs marketing spin and just look at the ship and decide what you think it can do...

This somewhat short clip tells us about what brawling is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME_XABJP4Do

[AdmiralThunder]

For those who don't own/haven't played Vanguard I took a second to take some screenshots of the issue I am talking about with being able to consistently use all 4 of your secondary turrets. There is a big boxy section of the hull (with boats on it) that will block 2 of the turrets from being brought into play if you try and angle the ship. If you are bow in the rear 2 will be useless and if kiting the front will be. Exposing enough side to allow all 4 turrets to fire will be taking a HUGE risk of being blapped with a ton of citadels (Vanguard is easy to citadel). So, unless WG removes this section of the hull with the boats on it, so all 4 turrets can be used on a regular basis, your big "secondary brawler" is going to be in there fighting with only 2 of its 4 127MM turrets firing. I wish they had removed the boats and added another 127MM, or even better a 152MM, turret or 2 in their place.

I also took a shot of a good T8 brawler, Massachusetts. See how you can bring most or all of the secondaries to bear and still stay angled as there is nothing blocking them (other than other turrets). If dead bow in you can pretty much get 3 turrets going while only 2 if kiting dead away but with this arrangement, and not having that big box, you can easily bring those extra turrets into play by opening up a little but still being angled. A Vanguard hull needs to be opened WAY up to bring more than 2 turrets into play. MA also has 21MM pen 127MM guns but it gets 5 dual turrets p/ side that you can reliably use at least 4 of if not all 5. That is why it is a good secondary ship. Vanguard with only 2 turrets being able to shoot while angled is frankly a joke as a secondary brawler. 

I also don't think some folks realize/know how abysmal the rear main gun turret angles are. You have to open up so wide to use them that you risk being citadeled. You can't keep enough angle to bounce anything. They are just atrocious. Now, it does have a Cruiser like rudder (and the new T9 one will have the same one) so you can swing it in and out when shooting BUT you have time it right or you can get paddled. Using those rear guns vs human opponents is very risky. Vanguard has some of the worst rear turret angles in the game (firing forward obviously).

Edited November 22, 2024 by AdmiralThunder

[Frostbow]

It is way too early to talk about this ship. 

[AdmiralThunder]

9 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Would this be good for a lighthouse build?

Not really. Short gun range for a T9 BB at just 18.7km, only AP (improved pen angles but not a lot of punch at range), just 8 guns, and bad accuracy (1.7 sigma). Not a good max range setup.

Edited November 22, 2024 by AdmiralThunder

[Admiral_Karasu]

14 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Not really. Short gun range for a T9 BB at just 18.7km, only AP (improved pen angles but not a lot of punch at range), just 8 guns, and bad accuracy (1.7 sigma). Not a good max range setup.

But... are those requirements crucial for a lighthouse build? What are you supposed to do with a ship like that at high tiers then?

[Frostbow]

9 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Would this be good for a lighthouse build?

 

19 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Not really. Short gun range for a T9 BB at just 18.7km

 

4 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

But... are those requirements crucial for a lighthouse build?

A "lighthouse build" essentially trades concealment for damage output. It works for cruisers such as Henri, Hindenburg, and Yoshino. If your ship's commander has the Top Grade Gunner commander skill, it will reduce your reload (−8% reload time of the main battery) if an enemy ship is spotted within your surface concealment range.

The Top Grade Gunner skill is not available for battleships, hence any "lighthouse build" for battleships is highly questionable if not downright impossible.

[Admiral_Karasu]

11 minutes ago, Frostbow said:

 

 

A "lighthouse build" essentially trades concealment for damage output. It works for cruisers such as Henri, Hindenburg, and Yoshino. If your ship's commander has the Top Grade Gunner commander skill, it will reduce your reload (−8% reload time of the main battery) if an enemy ship is spotted within your surface concealment range.

The Top Grade Gunner skill is not available for battleships, hence any "lighthouse build" for battleships is highly questionable if not downright impossible.

Right, that's a requirement that can't be met. So... what about the opposite, then, a stealth build. Does it have any chance of going that way? 18.7 km max range is not good, though, if the dispersion is bad. Not the range itself, because IMO, 15 to 20 km is often the optimal firing range on high tiers, but you'd be shooting at max ranges all the time unlike with those BB's that have well over a 20 km maximum range.

 

[Frostbow]

59 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

bad accuracy (1.7 sigma)

 

8 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

18.7 km max range is not good, though, if the dispersion is bad.

What if the dispersion formula is updated to that of a battlecruiser? (St Vincent has 1.6 sigma and yet her guns are accurate because she has battlecruiser dispersion.)

It is way too early to talk about the merits of this ship, Valparaiso.

[AdmiralThunder]

1 hour ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Right, that's a requirement that can't be met. So... what about the opposite, then, a stealth build. Does it have any chance of going that way? 18.7 km max range is not good, though, if the dispersion is bad. Not the range itself, because IMO, 15 to 20 km is often the optimal firing range on high tiers, but you'd be shooting at max ranges all the time unlike with those BB's that have well over a 20 km maximum range.

 

When you spoke of "Lighthouse" build I thought you meant to increase the gun range using GFCSM2 (+16% range) so you had more range (21.7km) for the guns and then staying at that max range all the time as the hull is suspect and not really suited to close up play as a brawler. Lighthouse builds are a Cruiser thing really, but I thought you just meant increase the range and stay there which is as close as a BB can get. But with this ship's awful 1.7 sigma (standard BB dispersion) and just 8 guns that won't work. I mean Vanguard has 2.0 sigma and struggles to hit at its max range (20km). 8 gun BB's always struggle with accuracy even with good sigma. It is going to be a crap shoot hitting at 18.7km never mind increasing the range LOL. 

The new ship and Vanguard have the exact same concealment so at best you can get this new ship to 12.6km. That isn't horrible but it isn't amazing either. The secondaries on the new T9 will have a base range of 8.0km. That means with a full build (slot 3 + Capt skills + flag) you can get them out to 12.0km. That lets you sort of flirt with your detection and secondary range.

You are going to really have to be cautious using those secondaries because of the hull but I would say ideal range for the new T9 is going to be around 14-15KM and then when safe and appropriate sneak into that 11-12km range to use the secondaries. That helps mitigate the awful accuracy of the main guns while keeping you within reasonable distance of your secondary range. I would be very cautious of being much closer at least early on. If you do push up to use the secondaries, and you stay in that 11-12km range, it lets you go dark and disengage somewhat rapidly. Get too deep in and you may not make it to safety.

Edited November 22, 2024 by AdmiralThunder

[Daniel_Allan_Clark]

2 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

This somewhat short clip tells us about what brawling is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME_XABJP4Do

Brawling in game is NOT brawling in real life.

2 hours ago, Frostbow said:

It is way too early to talk about this ship. 

Not at all. It just may be a waste of time...

[Admiral_Karasu]

1 minute ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Brawling in game is NOT brawling in real life.

 

Is there another word for what the brawling in game is then? I've come across some conflicting views on the forum what is brawling and what is not.

[AdmiralThunder]

Hey, something else to discuss that I missed initially. The new T9's "Super Heal" only has a 7 second duration. So it will heal HP back quickly but not a huge amount like a normal 28 sec duration would. I guess WG is trying a new heal with it too.

For comparison...

Vanguard Heal: (same as Thunderer) 

• 4X heal (base)
• 28 sec action time / 60 sec reload
• +430 HP p/ sec
• 0.6% sec heal rate / 60% ship HP restore / 33% citadel damage restore
• 1 heal can restore up to a max of 28X430 = 12,040 HP
• Max possible HP healable = 4X12,040 = 48,160 HP

T9 Heal: (we don't know everything yet)

• 6X heal (base - I seriously doubt they keep it with 6 - 4 or 5 is more likely but this is what it is now)
• 7 sec action time / 80 sec reload
• +1432 HP p/ sec
• 0.#% sec heal rate / #% ship HP restore / #% citadel damage restore (no idea what these stats are at this time)
• 1 heal can restore a max of 7X1432 = 10,024 HP
• Max possible HP healable = 6X10,024 = 60,144 HP

So, on a per heal basis, Vanguard actually can heal more HP back than the new T9 even though it has some kind of super heal. That 7 sec duration super heal on the new T9 just heals back a bunch of HP quickly but it is less than a full duration, lesser HP p/ sec, heal restores.

Edited November 22, 2024 by AdmiralThunder

[AdmiralThunder]

23 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Is there another word for what the brawling in game is then? I've come across some conflicting views on the forum what is brawling and what is not.

To me brawling is getting in close with 1 or more enemy ships and slugging it out. Range would be well under 10km for this IMO and right up to almost ramming range. I don't consider sitting at 12.4km in a Schlieffen (12.5km secondary range) so its secondaries can fire to be "brawling". To me Co-op is pretty much brawling. It happens in PVP but not often and more at lower tiers. 

[Admiral_Karasu]

9 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Hey, something else to discuss that I missed initially. The new T9's "Super Heal" only has a 7 second duration. So it will heal HP back quickly but not a huge amount like a normal 28 sec duration would. I guess WG is trying a new heal with it too.

For comparison...

Vanguard Heal: (same as Thunderer) 

• 4X heal (base)
• 28 sec action time / 60 sec reload
• +430 HP p/ sec
• 0.6% sec heal rate / 60% ship HP restore / 33% citadel damage restore
• 1 heal can restore up to a max of 28X430 = 12,040 HP
• Max possible HP healable = 4X12,040 = 48,160 HP

T9 Heal: (we don't know everything yet)

• 6X heal (base - I seriously doubt they keep it with 6 - 4 or 5 is more likely but this is what it is now)
• 7 sec action time / 80 sec reload
• +1432 HP p/ sec
• 0.#% sec heal rate / #% ship HP restore / #% citadel damage restore (no idea what these stats are at this time)
• 1 heal can restore a max of 7X1432 = 10,024 HP
• Max possible HP healable = 6X10,024 = 60,144 HP

So, on a per heal basis, Vanguard actually can heal more HP back than the new T9 even though it has some kind of super heal. That 7 sec duration super heal on the new T9 just heals back a bunch of HP quickly but it is less than a full duration, lesser HP p/ sec, heal restores.

Interesting.... isn't 'super' a designation used by some GPU maker to designate versions that are actually downgrades on the 'non-super' version?