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Zieten 400


Frostbow

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My highest DMG score for a Battleship in Ultimate Frontier has been with the Zieten, the Tier VIII tech tree German battleship. Hydro-equipped, torpedo-armed, and bristling with secondary guns, it makes for a nice and fun package to bring into Operations.

412339 DMG, 7 Kills, 11 Torpedo Hits, 1808 Base XP.

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Capable battleship. But it still looks ugly AF.

LOL!

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The looks are ... subjective, and also since, technically speaking, Zieten never existed so maybe that needs to be overlooked. Maybe someone could come up with a mod that rendered all the not-historically-extant ships invisible in the game. Sadly, of course, that would only work for the players that have the mod installed and I actually foresee a couple of issues with that as it would also make the enemy ships invisible to naked eye...

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28 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

The looks are ... subjective, and also since, technically speaking, Zieten never existed so maybe that needs to be overlooked. Maybe someone could come up with a mod that rendered all the not-historically-extant ships invisible in the game. Sadly, of course, that would only work for the players that have the mod installed and I actually foresee a couple of issues with that as it would also make the enemy ships invisible to naked eye...

In the case of the Zieten, I think it is an acquired taste. 😄

29 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

that would only work for the players that have the mod installed

Currently I am enjoying my ships without any camo. I enjoy it when there is just gray and rust, and nothing else. Like a woman, naked and ready... LOL!

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I can not drink enough alcohol to make Zieten look anything but FUGLY without passing out third the way there and then waking up coughing blood.

 

Whoever at WG approved the design should have been promptly demoted to trash compactor duty

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2 hours ago, Frostbow said:

I enjoy it when there is just gray and rust, and nothing else. Like a woman, naked and ready...

So you like your women grey and rusty? 😜

2 hours ago, Frostbow said:

In the case of the Zieten, I think it is an acquired taste.

Like a Gneisenau had its way with a Nurnberg.

I enjoyed my Zieten grind - she certainly plays a lot better than she looks, and she seems to shoot a lot better than Gneisenau too, given that both ships have the same number of the same calibre gun. That slaughter of yours was... impressive.

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17 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

So you like your women grey and rusty? 😜

Oooo that is so wrong.

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14 minutes ago, thornzero said:

Oooo that is so wrong.

I, in my middle age, am married to a redhead of about the same age, so there's that. (Imagine, if you will, Ginny Weasley with Hermione Granger's brains.)

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5 hours ago, Frostbow said:

My highest DMG score for a Battleship in Ultimate Frontier has been with the Zieten, the Tier VIII tech tree German battleship. Hydro-equipped, torpedo-armed, and bristling with secondary guns, it makes for a nice and fun package to bring into Operations.

Congratulations.  🙂 

The Zieten's turret arrangement is less of a hindrance when the opponents are on the port or starboard of her hull (instead of ahead of her bow).  🙂 
It's nice when the tech-tree ships can strut their stuff.  🙂 

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11 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Congratulations.  🙂 

The Zieten's turret arrangement is less of a hindrance when the opponents are on the port or starboard of her hull (instead of ahead of her bow).  🙂 
It's nice when the tech-tree ships can strut their stuff.  🙂 

Zieten benefits the most from a trait common to German battlecruisers: the placement and rotation characteristics of the rearmost turret. As a rule Y turret is placed quite far astern of the super-firing X turret, which results in good forward firing angles. Said turret being able to rotate through a full 360 degree arc only helps, as it’s easy to keep the turret on target when alternating between firing at targets to port and starboard (or when maneuvering aggressively). Zieten has six guns in an A-XY configuration that should feel very awkward, but it really doesn’t because it’s very easy to have four guns on target even when pushing in. Combine this with the fact that she’s the first ship in the line that gets all the tools to really excel with a secondary build (accurate, long range secondaries and great concealment) and a very comfortable 22.5s main battery reload and Zieten is a lot of fun.

Edited by Nevermore135
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12 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

I, in my middle age, am married to a redhead of about the same age, so there's that. (Imagine, if you will, Ginny Weasley with Hermione Granger's brains.)

I am also married to a an intelligent, attractive middle aged redhead.  May God have mercy on us both.

My friends sometimes say I am lucky...and I am.  But, I remind them sometimes that throne is actually a saddle upon a wild Arabian in the chute of a rodeo arena, and someone has just cinched a nasty flank strap around her before opening the gate.

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On 8/26/2024 at 8:36 PM, Ensign Cthulhu said:

So you like your women grey and rusty? 😜

If they are, they're going to get some deep 'change oil'. LOL

On 8/26/2024 at 8:36 PM, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Like a Gneisenau had its way with a Nurnberg.

I enjoyed my Zieten grind - she certainly plays a lot better than she looks, and she seems to shoot a lot better than Gneisenau too, given that both ships have the same number of the same calibre gun. That slaughter of yours was... impressive.

My grind from Von Der Tann → Schlieffen has been the best ever. Fun, challenging, productive, memorable, in both PVP and PVE modes. And the enjoyment will continue with the arrival of the updated Operations. 

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1 hour ago, Frostbow said:

My grind from Von Der Tann → Schlieffen has been the best ever. Fun, challenging, productive, memorable, in both PVP and PVE modes. And the enjoyment will continue with the arrival of the updated Operations. 

The devs caught lightning in a bottle with the German battlecruisers. While some ships are better than others, there aren’t really any stinkers in the line (although some do need to be built differently for maximum effectiveness), nor are any of the ships really overpowered (at least in Randoms). They somehow produced a tech tree line that is fairly balanced and fun to play from tier III to X.

It’s a real shame that after all this time we still don’t have any German CC premiums.

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37 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

It’s a real shame that after all this time we still don’t have any German CC premiums.

Azur Lane Prinz Heinrich. Granted, it would be better to have one available all the time, not just when the weebs come to town.

37 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

While some ships are better than others, there aren’t really any stinkers in the line

Maybe you could give me a few pointers about Derfflinger. I call it Derpflinger because the guns never seem to do anything on the rare occasions when they hit, yet every ship before and after it in the line has been a pleasure to drive.

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On 8/26/2024 at 2:54 AM, Frostbow said:

My highest DMG score for a Battleship in Ultimate Frontier has been with the Zieten, the Tier VIII tech tree German battleship. Hydro-equipped, torpedo-armed, and bristling with secondary guns, it makes for a nice and fun package to bring into Operations.

Something I found interesting was that, amongst the tier VIII BBs, brandenburg was basically the best pic for ops. Second place goes to Tirpitz and third Odin(the enhanced range on the secondaries helps a bit and the lack of HP is offset by the heals in the missions). Zieten isn’t bad, but I found she ended up closer to the bottom. The lack of guns really hurts your bottom line in terms of damage and your secondaries don’t pick up enough of the slack.

Good game btw. I think the highest I managed with around 250k on Zieten myself.

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On 8/27/2024 at 9:41 AM, Nevermore135 said:

The devs caught lightning in a bottle with the German battlecruisers. While some ships are better than others, there aren’t really any stinkers in the line (although some do need to be built differently for maximum effectiveness), nor are any of the ships really overpowered (at least in Randoms). They somehow produced a tech tree line that is fairly balanced and fun to play from tier III to X.

It’s a real shame that after all this time we still don’t have any German CC premiums.

Id argue Rupprecht and Heinrich could be seen as mediocre generally. Rupprecht isn’t enough of an upgrade over Zieten to justify the tier bump and Heinrich’s guns just don’t really cut it tier VII+. Like you said though, they’re not bad but they’re just not stellar.

on the German premium CC matter, I mean technically:

Anhalt - Global wiki. Wargaming.net

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50 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

Id argue Rupprecht and Heinrich could be seen as mediocre generally. Rupprecht isn’t enough of an upgrade over Zieten to justify the tier bump

Can’t say I agree. She gets a heavier salvo weight (especially when pushing), twice as many torpedoes, and ~18% more secondary DPM. She has the same main battery DPM as Zieten, but she gets access to MBM3 and she’s not the only ship that has her reload balanced around that module (Seattle also has the same base DPM as Cleveland, for example). 

50 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

Heinrich’s guns just don’t really cut it tier VII+

Heinrich is a ship balanced around extremes. When she’s top tier she’s an absolute menace with a full secondary build, but in higher tier marches she really struggles. Tier VII is an awkward tier for secondary battleships in general because they typically don’t have the concealment to secondary range ratio to allow them to close undetected (like the tier VIII+ German CCs) or the armor to weather the damage needed to get there (German BBs). Heinrich has these flaws plus a couple other things working against her: she’s not particularly fast for a battleship in her MM, yet alone a battlecruiser, her 25mm plating eats 6” HE pens, her main battery range is on the short side and she doesn’t have a spotter plane, and she has Bayern’s mediocre tier VI guns a tier higher rather than the more guns/shells of Bismarck and Gneisenau. Other similar tier VII BBs like Gneisenau and Scharnhorst can run an effective main battery or hybrid build to help when uptiered, but Heinrich’s guns aren’t really good enough for that.

The other ship of the line I would classify as mediocre would be Derfflinger, as much as I want to love the Iron Dog. After her predecessors she feels quite slow (she’s not much faster than Konig, actually), and tier-for-tier she has the worst secondary battery of the line. While she jumps up from 11” to 12” guns, the difference is caliber isn’t really that meaningful at the tier (and she has 2 less barrels). She can be fun to play with a main battery/brisk build, though (which is also the idea way to play Mackensen, IMO).

50 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

on the German premium CC matter, I mean technically:

WG has really missed two chances to introduce a German CC premium. The first was Anhalt, which was implemented with battleship characteristics instead. The other missed opportunity was Admiral Schroder, which with some tweaks could have worked as a mid tier CC instead of another (and more questionable, especially prior to the later change to cruiser skills) tier IX German CB.

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14 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

Can’t say I agree. She gets a heavier salvo weight (especially when pushing), twice as many torpedoes, and ~18% more secondary DPM. She has the same main battery DPM as Zieten, but she gets access to MBM3 and she’s not the only ship that has her reload balanced around that module (Seattle also has the same base DPM as Cleveland, for example). 

But when you’re competing with Pommern and FDG, which absolutely smash her as brawlers and do everything she does better. Those guns have better salvo weight, but they’re not that good. She has twice as many torps, but their crappy torps. You only get 1,000 hp compared to Zieten, while also having weaker armor across the board(Rupprecht can be overmatched and citadelled through the nose by the ever growing number of ships with 457mm guns). She could Easily be a tier VIII, as she stands right now she’s a tier VIII.25 not even a tier VIII.5. I’d argue Zieten is stronger at tier VIII than Rupprecht is at tier IX. The only reason to play Rupprecht at all is to get Schlieffen.

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25 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

WG has really missed two chances to introduce a German CC premium. The first was Anhalt, which was implemented with battleship characteristics instead. The other missed opportunity was Admiral Schroder, which with some tweaks could have worked as a mid tier CC instead of another (and more questionable, especially prior to the later change to cruiser skills) tier IX German CB.

Arguable the best CC they made in the game premium wise has been Mecklenburg. Brandenburg but without the gimps and dialled up to OP levels of performance.

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54 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

But when you’re competing with Pommern and FDG, which absolutely smash her as brawlers and do everything she does better.

Prinz Rupperecht has secondaries that are accurate enough to actually hit targets consistently at max range and concealment to get the drop on her opponents. Can’t agree with this at all, but this wouldn’t be the first time we’ll have to agree to disagree regarding the ideal features of a secondary brawler (I recall a certain Atlantico thread where we didn’t see eye to eye at all). I’d take Rupprecht into a close-quarters engagement over either of those ships any day of the week (especially Pommern with her 15” guns).

54 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

Those guns have better salvo weight, but they’re not that good.

But it’s nontheless a notable improvement over Zieten. Subpar main battery shell performance is also a bit of a gimmick of the German CC line, and if one is honest that’s not their major draw.

54 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

while also having weaker armor across the board(Rupprecht can be overmatched and citadelled through the nose by the ever growing number of ships with 457mm guns)

This is an interesting observation, because my experience has been the opposite. I can’t recall ever being citadeled through the nose in Rupprecht. Perhaps I’m just overly cognizant of my 27mm bow and make sure I’m always angled enough to prevent those types of hits and/or bait shots into my belt. I’ll also acknowledge that I have more experience playing the ship in Ranked vs. Randoms (won’t go into the reasons why, as this isn’t the thread for that), so that may also be a contributing factor to our differing experiences. Regardless, I’ll have to take another look at the armor profile, because this isn’t something I’ve noticed at all.

51 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

Arguable the best CC they made in the game premium wise has been Mecklenburg. Brandenburg but without the gimps and dialled up to OP levels of performance.

Arguably, Mecklenburg is no more a battlecruiser than Georgia. She may not be as tanky as GK or Preussen at the same tier, but she has 32mm plating. I’d argue the only true premium (or “special”) battlecruiser (in terms of gameplay) at tier X is Rhode Island. Brandenburg also belongs with Odin in that special group of German ships that WG felt the need to needlessly hamstring. I’m still surprised to this day that neither has been buffed since release.

It’s ultimately irrelevant semantics anyways, as in the context of my original point about the lack of a German CC premium I was referring to a ship in the same style as the tech tree line from tier VI+. It’s a bit crazy that WG hasn’t cashed in on the popularity of a line that most would agree is at least very fun to play (if not always the best suited for the current meta).

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1 hour ago, Nevermore135 said:

Prinz Rupperecht has secondaries that are accurate enough to actually hit targets consistently at max range and concealment to get the drop on her opponents. Can’t agree with this at all, but this wouldn’t be the first time we’ll have to agree to disagree regarding the ideal features of a secondary brawler (I recall a certain Atlantico thread where we didn’t see eye to eye at all). I’d take Rupprecht into a close-quarters engagement over either of those ships any day of the week (especially Pommern with her 15” guns).

Atlantico isn’t even an argument and we don’t need to see eye to eye on it. Atlantico is objectively very powerful as a secondary brawler, one of the best in the entire game and in tier.

I wasn’t arguing her secondaries effectiveness their fine. The concealment is good too, her survivability is the issue when engaging into a brawl. Pommern in a head to head will be more likely to survive an engagement that would sink Rupprecht. If you know what your doing, Rupprecht can be beaten by a non-brawler like Marco Polo due to just how poor her survivability is.

Pommern having 38cm guns isn’t really the issue here. They lack overmatch but they do better overall if you use them right and the quantity of them means you’ll get damage numbers that a Rupprecht will never see. Pommern is the top ranked choice for secondary brawlers for a reason. Her overall good qualities more than make up for her few weaknesses. I’d even take things a step further: Tirpitz or Bismarck are better than Rupprecht by a significant margin and their tier VIIIs. And their also equipped with the same 38cm guns.

1 hour ago, Nevermore135 said:

But it’s nontheless a notable improvement over Zieten. Subpar main battery shell performance is also a bit of a gimmick of the German CC line, and if one is honest that’s not their major draw.

Objectively, not really. A Zieten and Rupprecht are equal in terms of effectiveness.

1 hour ago, Nevermore135 said:

This is an interesting observation, because my experience has been the opposite. I can’t recall ever being citadeled through the nose in Rupprecht. Perhaps I’m just overly cognizant of my 27mm bow and make sure I’m always angled enough to prevent those types of hits and/or bait shots into my belt. I’ll also acknowledge that I have more experience playing the ship in Ranked vs. Randoms (won’t go into the reasons why, as this isn’t the thread for that), so that may also be a contributing factor to our differing experiences. Regardless, I’ll have to take another look at the armor profile, because this isn’t something I’ve noticed at all.

It’s not the 27mm plate your worried about it’s the 30mm ice breaker, your citadel also rises above the waterline and is exposed. With your low health pool it’s a risk, which is a weakness that is worth considering in a sweaty ranked game. The belt armor is also worse, Zieten has a 350mm(Rupprecht only gets 300mm) main belt and her citadel is smaller and more submerged than Rupprechts. The upper works are also a bit stronger at 170mm vs 150mm.

one big thing to also remember going back to the pommern vs Rupprecht conversation, is the deck plating. Rupprecht lacks the meta centric 50mm deck plating. As a brawler you need that in ranked. Having 32mm is a massive weakness as a BB as it leaves you vulnerable to losing too much health from heavy cruiser and IFHE light HE to endure in the long term. Your also vulnerable to other German BBs secondaries, where as Pommern/FDG are immune.

Now for the moderators: this my last post on this as I feel I’ve made my points and won’t derail things any further.

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6 hours ago, MBT808 said:

Atlantico isn’t even an argument and we don’t need to see eye to eye on it. Atlantico is objectively very powerful as a secondary brawler, one of the best in the entire game and in tier.

My point being that we similarly disagree in this case, nothing more, nothing less.

6 hours ago, MBT808 said:

I wasn’t arguing her secondaries effectiveness their fine. The concealment is good too, her survivability is the issue when engaging into a brawl. Pommern in a head to head will be more likely to survive an engagement that would sink Rupprecht. If you know what your doing, Rupprecht can be beaten by a non-brawler like Marco Polo due to just how poor her survivability is.

“If you know what you are doing…” then any ship can beat any other ship. One can easily make the argument that a well played Rupperecht, Zieten, Schlieffen, etc (this really applies to all the German CCs to varying degrees) can beat any other tier-equivalent battleship despite their characteristic low survivability among battleships.

6 hours ago, MBT808 said:

The belt armor is also worse, Zieten has a 350mm(Rupprecht only gets 300mm) main belt and her citadel is smaller and more submerged than Rupprechts. The upper works are also a bit stronger at 170mm vs 150mm.

This is of course a valid point. I am genuinely interested in seeing the math in how much difference at what ranges that extra plating makes, however. This is the same type of difference that is also cited when comparing the casement belt armor/citadel belt armor of most German BBs to their contemporaries, and I’d argue that outside of long engagement ranges the difference is negligible. Both ships (Zieten and Rupperecht) are going to be easily citadelled if they show broadside. Also, neither ship’s citadel is more or less exposed than the other, being very narrow and sitting right at/just below the waterline.

shot-24_08.29_05_52.48-0892.thumb.jpg.151b83ce6a3bd2a53c1ddf45f7427773.jpgshot-24_08.29_05_53.06-0130.thumb.jpg.d81f292d3fc045fbe9502a64b99507d1.jpg

6 hours ago, MBT808 said:

Objectively, not really. A Zieten and Rupprecht are equal in terms of effectiveness.

This is an inherently subjective statement. Rupperecht has objectively superior offensive capabilities in terms of her main battery, secondaries, and torpedo armament (which should be expected, given she’s a tier higher). You seem to believe that these don't outweigh the marginal defensive advantages of Zieten, while I am of the opposite opinion.

6 hours ago, MBT808 said:

It’s not the 27mm plate your worried about it’s the 30mm ice breaker, your citadel also rises above the waterline and is exposed. With your low health pool it’s a risk, which is a weakness that is worth considering in a sweaty ranked game

I’m aware Rupperecht has a 30mm icebreaker, and said icebreaker will be overmatched by larger caliber AP. See above regarding her citadel placement. My point is that I’ve never been citadelled through the nose because it’s a theoretical weakness that practically doesn’t exist considering the ships’ internal armor geometry. It’s certainly an odd choice considering Zieten’s 60mm icebreaker, but what this effectively translates into is more pen damage through the bow if the enemy aims lower, the type of pen damage that is already extremely easy to accomplish with 406mm+ guns by simply aiming higher.

6 hours ago, MBT808 said:

Now for the moderators: this my last post on this as I feel I’ve made my points and won’t derail things any further.

I see no reason to get staff involved in what has been a perfectly civil conversation. I’ve already indicated my stance that we will have to agree to disagree in my previous post, so I’m 100% willing to leave this discussion right here now that we've each made our points.

Edited by Nevermore135
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13 hours ago, MBT808 said:

Good game btw. I think the highest I managed with around 250k on Zieten myself.

Thank you.

13 hours ago, MBT808 said:

Something I found interesting was that, amongst the tier VIII BBs, brandenburg was basically the best pic for ops. Second place goes to Tirpitz and third Odin(the enhanced range on the secondaries helps a bit and the lack of HP is offset by the heals in the missions). Zieten isn’t bad, but I found she ended up closer to the bottom. The lack of guns really hurts your bottom line in terms of damage and your secondaries don’t pick up enough of the slack.

Are you referring to all of them in the context of Operations? If yes, I am very much inclined to say all of them are on equal terms. I have played them all countless times, in all Operations, and I find them to be all equally balanced amongst themselves. If I have to split hairs, it will be on their main guns and firing angles, but these ships and the flavor they bring to Operations are all the same for me. 

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9 hours ago, MBT808 said:

Pommern having 38cm guns isn’t really the issue here. They lack overmatch but they do better overall if you use them right and the quantity of them means you’ll get damage numbers that a Rupprecht will never see. Pommern is the top ranked choice for secondary brawlers for a reason. Her overall good qualities more than make up for her few weaknesses. I’d even take things a step further: Tirpitz or Bismarck are better than Rupprecht by a significant margin and their tier VIIIs. And their also equipped with the same 38cm guns.

I have played Pommern and Rupprecht in solo Random Battles and my vote goes to the Rupprecht. I understand we all have different preferences, experiences, and playstyles, and what worked for me may not work for the next man. For Brawling, I would be inclined to pick Pommern first, but I've tried both also and I can't deny the capability of Rupprecht to run circles around the Pommern.

Having said that, I checked na.wows-numbers.com and I can see Rupprecht having the edge over Pommern in terms of win rate (52.06% versus 49.98%) and average damage (69,516 versus 63,053).

Same is true over at eu.wows-numbers.com, where we can see Rupprecht prevailing over the Pommern in terms of the same stats: 52.12% versus 50.20% for win rate, and 68,641 versus 63,538 for average damage).

I would disagree on this:

10 hours ago, MBT808 said:

Tirpitz or Bismarck are better than Rupprecht by a significant margin and their tier VIIIs.

While the two legendary battleships are capable and powerful in their own right, I cannot agree to the claim that they are superior to the Tier IX Rupprecht. 

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16 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

The other ship of the line I would classify as mediocre would be Derfflinger, as much as I want to love the Iron Dog. After her predecessors she feels quite slow (she’s not much faster than Konig, actually), and tier-for-tier she has the worst secondary battery of the line. While she jumps up from 11” to 12” guns, the difference is caliber isn’t really that meaningful at the tier (and she has 2 less barrels).

Oh good, it's not just me.

16 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

She can be fun to play with a main battery/brisk build, though (which is also the idea way to play Mackensen, IMO).

Interesting. Duly noted.

Roll on the next PTS, then, and we shall see. 😈

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