The State of Operations (& Scenario Battles...) 2024:

[Admiral_Karasu]

22 hours ago, xamdam said:

The old way still works, with a semi-competent team. What I really hate is when I see 3 ships hiding behind the south island with nothing to shoot at.

You can't just try to take out the second wave alone, but if you have a DD out there spamming torps and some backup it's not that hard to take them down. It's the only way you'll stand a chance of taking out the BBs before the battle ends.

DD is the way, as you say. Torps only, no guns, potentially smoke and avoid detection like the plague. Then move up north (not too far!) and get ready for the BB's that spawn there.

[xamdam]

Hermes... yes, it's a busy Op without great rewards but sheesh, it isn't that hard. Unless you get a group that doesn't know how to direct their AA (scouts live) a DD that thinks it can take out the German BB spawn on its own by rushing towards them, and triggering them at the same time as the second wave (and getting deleted by it)... and then TWO BBs that sit miles behind Ruan not knowing what to shoot at. 

Bloody hell, I felt like I had to do it all alone. At least 1 of the 3 DDs knew what it was doing and helped out but the BBs couldn't even be convinced to bother shooting at the CV. Instead, they fired HE at cruisers (ignoring the incoming DDs as well). I did manage to take down the CV just before the end, while wiping the sweat from my brow. Somebody said "GG" at the end. I think one of the BBs... Yes, you are welcome for your 5 star. At least one of them was registered in 2015 with 10K+ random battles (and... shall we say, an unimpressive record).

Sigh.

Sometimes I think people just log in and play one handed while scrolling their phone, eating a snack or watching TV at the same time.

/rant

[xamdam]

And it continues today... What to say? Same thing with Hermes, then a Narai where we have four cruisers, a Mainz, Baltimore, Edinburgh and Yorck. Who goes for the Transports? The other Tirpitz (which I was also in). Nobody for CV until a North Carolina goes there... The Mainz tries to enter the harbor alone at low HP and gets nuked. The Yorck does, well about nothing and the Baltimore, no idea... Sailed around in the back and "sniped"? 

2 Star...

Kinda not really wanting to bother for the 3rd container today. 

Sometimes I think the MM just gives me these teams for a couple days to frustrate me then pops in a GG when I citadel everything, the team does well and we get an easy 5 star.

/grumble

[xamdam]

A glimpse into the "new wave" of Ops players. 

In Killer Whale, just now, some guy in a Scharnhorst wanders way up north and gets focused by bots of the 4th and 5th wave, then starts in with "you f*****s going to help or something?" as he melts down.

Thing is, all objectives had been completed. Bay was cleared, no bots entered, both Fusos dead and I and another Brandenburg were heading to the exit while getting our last farming in. (edit: the exit was south...)

The player rage quite right after the battle. Checked his stats and while he has 10k plus random battles (well, 2.4K in a V25 at tier 2...) he only had 16 "Sea Stars" and only a couple other Operations achievements. I have 2004 "Sea Stars", the other Brandenburg had around 700. Both of us were well above the others on score.

I do think more players are moving over to Ops. But... peeps like this think they're experienced enough to automatically smash the bots, and when they get caught out, it must be the team, right? 

I predict more of this. Lately, I've been seeing a lot of unfamiliar names during the times I play and when looking at stats, many of them are veteran players. Sometimes they do well, sometimes not (like everyone). When the T9~11 thing opens up though, it's going to exponentially increase, methinks.

Edited August 27 by xamdam

[ArIskandir]

6 hours ago, xamdam said:

And it continues today...

Yeah, yesterday I had one of the hardest fails I ever had on Failport. I was using Yorktown so no 'raw power' to brute force significant damage... The last wave entered the harbor in full, unopposed. Up to that point there were still 6 ships alive, only one was fighting with some effect.

Edited August 27 by ArIskandir

[Asym]

1 hour ago, xamdam said:

A glimpse into the "new wave" of Ops players. 

...  et al.

I predict more of this. Lately, I've been seeing a lot of unfamiliar names during the times I play and when looking at stats, many of them are veteran players. Sometimes they do well, sometimes not (like everyone). When the T9~11 thing opens up though, it's going to exponentially increase, methinks.

Yes, it will.  In many ways !   Just like the first three days of Asymmetrical Battles where our host had a nervous breakdown and massively nerf'd ASB's on day 4.....  Because, a large number of Random players abandoned Randoms and went to ASB's....

There is an issue with Ops coming that many of us "full time" OPS players are concerned with:   congestion.  Ops are small maps and the distances at any point are "in range" of a great many of the ships in play.  What keeps the current operations "reasonable" revolves around the word "complexity"....  Tier  6 through 8 ship's weapons systems are "at the limits" of the small maps ability to "distribute damage" without overwhelming the "complexity thresholds..."   It all comes down the the Laws of Complexity, that are quite complicated and really, way beyond a serious discussion in this forum.    So, simply stated:  as the interactive tool's capabilities increase beyond the levels of complexity a "system" can tolerate (range, sequence and lethality), all of the "components of that system" start to fail at an exponential rate relative to the exceeded changes....  In plain terms:  a Klebber and a Benham will completely "fail the system's ability to absorb those changes...." because,  the maps are too small to absorb the addition combat mass.....

Ever wonder why some ships are banned from events?  That ^^^^^.  Those ships that are banned because they can and will exceed the "carry cost" of the "system" they play in.   It becomes a cascading error event, even the best players can't evade because of the distances....   For us PVE Operations mains, where we play in division several times a week, many of us are seriously concerned that our host has made a large mistake.....

We'll see just how bad this becomes...  What is clear though:  if they pock this up, we are NOT moving to Randoms or anything PVP...  We'd leave the game versus playing PVP modes.  I hope they realize that.

[Admiral_Karasu]

Small maps are not just an OPS problem, though. The issue starts to manifest itself in randoms too, from about tier 6 or so upwards getting worse the higher you go. There are some ops maps that are better in this regard, like Hermes, Eternal Frontier, Cherry Blossom, and I'd also say Raptor Rescue. In fact, the only less than ideal OPS map that I can think of is Killer Whale. Narai can also get rather congested with tier 8 ships.

[Frostbow]

2 hours ago, xamdam said:

A glimpse into the "new wave" of Ops players.

It'll take a bit of time before they become competent in Operations, when these new comers can be confidently expected to do what is for their team's best interest. Until then, I will try to carry as much as I can, for as long as I can.

[ArIskandir]

2 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Small maps are not just an OPS problem, though. The issue starts to manifest itself in randoms too, from about tier 6 or so upwards getting worse the higher you go. There are some ops maps that are better in this regard, like Hermes, Eternal Frontier, Cherry Blossom, and I'd also say Raptor Rescue. In fact, the only less than ideal OPS map that I can think of is Killer Whale. Narai can also get rather congested with tier 8 ships.

I dread Aegis with T10 ships. The crossfire potential would make it even worse to take aggressive alternate paths. Safe positions would leave you really really off subsequent actions. 

[Admiral_Karasu]

20 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

I dread Aegis with T10 ships. The crossfire potential would make it even worse to take aggressive alternate paths. Safe positions would leave you really really off subsequent actions. 

Which side do you dread more? Yes, feel free to understand this one or both ways.

[ArIskandir]

12 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Which side do you dread more? Yes, feel free to understand this one or both ways.

Bot side. If you delay taking out the first wave, which you likely will given there's more HP to chew through, the cross fire from the second wave can be potentially lethal... 

In turn less people will 'brave' the direct approach (smoke) and more will go round the south island (noob way) for further delay and more risk for the few who brave the straight course. This already sets the Op on 'bad tempo' and makes everything much harder. Also, there's a very interesting play for cruisers (better if smoker) in which you go north to cath the broadsides of the second wave, a more dangerous and accurate bot return fire (higher tier) will make the play much riskier and by need push you farther away so you'll be way out of position to intercept the flanks of the Merchant escorts and likely out of position to intercept/torp the BBs up north. This 'parallel' route is critical if you hope to get the 5-star, and a reason why 5-stars became so rare for Aegis is T8 making it more difficult to pull the play in cruisers. 

And that's just for the second wave cross fire. If bots are upgraded to T10, with corresponding range increase, then the Merchant escorts can get deadly fire on anyone moving to cut across their path. Also if BBs are upgraded to T9-T10, the resulting crossfire between them would be deadlier... Aegis can easily break if ranges are increased, it wasn't designed for that. 

[GandalfTehGray]

50 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

I dread Aegis with T10 ships. The crossfire potential would make it even worse to take aggressive alternate paths. Safe positions would leave you really really off subsequent actions. 

Eh think a Stalingrad/Petro/Salem will absolutely shred Aegis first and second wave. 

I already take a super aggressive route on it with Bayard/Mainz that have very little defense again the 203mm and BB shells, something tanky should perform even better. 

[ArIskandir]

5 minutes ago, GandalfTehGray said:

Eh think a Stalingrad/Petro/Salem will absolutely shred Aegis first and second wave. 

I already take a super aggressive route on it with Bayard/Mainz that have very little defense again the 203mm and BB shells, something tanky should perform even better. 

mmm... I don't see it that clearly. Even better than being tanky is not getting hit in the first place, to which end being slim and nimble (or a smoker) can provide a better 'active' protection. Consider T10 ships are much bigger and clumsier, and T10 bots will be more accurate, you'll get hit more. I'm not confident the tankiness is enough to withstand the focused fire of 5 bots, particularly if it is intense HE spam. 

[GandalfTehGray]

3 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

mmm... I don't see it that clearly. Even better than being tanky is not getting hit in the first place, to which end being slim and nimble (or a smoker) can provide a better 'active' protection. Consider T10 ships are much bigger and clumsier, and T10 bots will be more accurate, you'll get hit more. I'm not confident the tankiness is enough to withstand the focused fire of 5 bots, particularly if it is intense HE spam. 

Jinain Smolensk should be fine if you want for that role, I prefer to be close and aggressive to make sure wave 1 and 2 get cleared quickly. It will occasionally lead to an early demise for me but generally if I finish those waves the randoms can at least clear the 3rd wave and win the op. 

[Admiral_Karasu]

39 minutes ago, GandalfTehGray said:

Jinain Smolensk should be fine if you want for that role, I prefer to be close and aggressive to make sure wave 1 and 2 get cleared quickly. It will occasionally lead to an early demise for me but generally if I finish those waves the randoms can at least clear the 3rd wave and win the op. 

You must be one of those people who go to certain spots on the OPS maps to ambush the spawning waves and such then.

[HamptonRoads]

 

1 hour ago, GandalfTehGray said:

Eh think a Stalingrad/Petro/Salem will absolutely shred Aegis first and second wave. 

I already take a super aggressive route on it with Bayard/Mainz that have very little defense again the 203mm and BB shells, something tanky should perform even better. 

If the current iteration from the PTS is any indication, the bots will focus fire on you and quickly whittle your HP away.  It is probably best to blend in and let the bots spread damage over several targets.

1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

mmm... I don't see it that clearly. Even better than being tanky is not getting hit in the first place, to which end being slim and nimble (or a smoker) can provide a better 'active' protection. Consider T10 ships are much bigger and clumsier, and T10 bots will be more accurate, you'll get hit more. I'm not confident the tankiness is enough to withstand the focused fire of 5 bots, particularly if it is intense HE spam. 

^^this

 

[Andrewbassg]

2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

In turn less people will 'brave' the direct approach (smoke) and more will go round the south island (noob way) for further delay and more risk for the few who brave the straight course. Thi

If I may.

In essence all ops are  attritional in nature. Meaning the team  has to do maximum possible dmg while taking mininum possible dmg. The problem is, that people, specifically since the Battle On button, DGAFF about survival and  sadly, it is already (!!) a lost art. 

The tactics in AEGIS could be (even highly) dependent on the composition of the (first and not only ) wave, which even could be 4 BB's. But what actually dictates the route one should take, is the ship. There is no noob route, only noob playing. 

For example, the best play for Bayard is to run ( around the islands) to the other side(!!) of the slot  (where the convoy is sailing), to create crossfire and (eventually) intercept the two cruisers on the other side.

For Mainz and Irian the best route is what you call "noob" route. Both are high DPM ships, with torps and hydro. They can deal with the cruisers, the dd;s and even with the BB's. And THEN they can sail to the edge of the entrance to the slot, from the other way and as the second wave try to get out, torp and cit the crap out of them. Also, both having good range, can rain HE hell on the incoming escorts of the convoy.

A neat little trick on that route is to physically block Schors, thus preventing him from getting out in the open, to get sunk, tho it can be a bit tricky.

About smoke is important to keep in mind two things 1. high caliber guns have bigger smoke penalty, so from heavy cruisers up... have no place being there. AT ALL . 2 The second a ship is spotted, the torp capable bots will send fish in that direction. The smoke is reserved for light cruisers and dd's with range and penetration limitations

 

2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Also, there's a very interesting play for cruisers (better if smoker) in which you go north to cath the broadsides of the second wave, a

 Yes, that's the best play for dd;s, RN CL's, and Pan Asian  smokey cruisers. Before the rework was also the best play for Molotov. Used to rack up cits like no tomorrow, 20-30+ Another neat little boat for that was Yaigle ~same amount of cits.

Edited August 27 by Andrewbassg

[xamdam]

3 hours ago, HamptonRoads said:

 

If the current iteration from the PTS is any indication, the bots will focus fire on you and quickly whittle your HP away.  It is probably best to blend in and let the bots spread damage over several targets.

^^this

 

Yep, except I'd use "Tear your HP away in huge, bloody, burning chunks" instead. 🤣 Hopefully they'll dial it back a bit but as it stands right now you get Zaos and Clausewitz (Super Ship...) for the second wave and transport escorts... The sheer amount of HE they spit out is incredible, as is their super-buffed HP. They do switch to AP as well and have tons of torps (which are also buffed in dmg... 30K or more per torp...).

Then, if you get past the second wave, the 3 BBs are two Yamatos and a GK or Hannover (for the Amagi). The Yamatos are deadly to anyone trying to get the transports out. Insane accuracy and dmg. I've also seen plenty of teams fail to even kill the transport escorts before they run to the south border of the map (so they never even see the BBs). The amount of HP on those BBs means several torpedo attacks and consistent focused fire is the only hope of taking them down in time. Rarely happens right now in this uberhard balans mode on PTS.

I'm also worried about DD players triggering the second wave too early. A pair of DDs with quick reloading torps wouldn't be bad if they work together but a single one could just kick a hornets nest for the rest of the team. Those Zaos have plenty of range to hit anyone near the first wave (unless they're all having a group hug behind the southern island...).

[xamdam]

3 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

If I may.

In essence all ops are  attritional in nature. Meaning the team  has to do maximum possible dmg while taking mininum possible dmg. The problem is, that people, specifically since the Battle On button, DGAFF about survival and  sadly, it is already (!!) a lost art. 

The tactics in AEGIS could be (even highly) dependent on the composition of the (first and not only ) wave, which even could be 4 BB's. But what actually dictates the route one should take, is the ship. There is no noob route, only noob playing. 

For example, the best play for Bayard is to run ( around the islands) to the other side(!!) of the slot  (where the convoy is sailing), to create crossfire and (eventually) intercept the two cruisers on the other side.

For Mainz and Irian the best route is what you call "noob" route. Both are high DPM ships, with torps and hydro. They can deal with the cruisers, the dd;s and even with the BB's. And THEN they can sail to the edge of the entrance to the slot, from the other way and as the second wave try to get out, torp and cit the crap out of them. Also, both having good range, can rain HE hell on the incoming escorts of the convoy.

A neat little trick on that route is to physically block Schors, thus preventing him from getting out in the open, to get sunk, tho it can be a bit tricky.

About smoke is important to keep in mind two things 1. high caliber guns have bigger smoke penalty, so from heavy cruisers up... have no place being there. AT ALL . 2 The second a ship is spotted, the torp capable bots will send fish in that direction. The smoke is reserved for light cruisers and dd's with range and penetration limitations

 

 Yes, that's the best play for dd;s, RN CL's, and Pan Asian  smokey cruisers. Before the rework was also the best play for Molotov. Used to rack up cits like no tomorrow, 20-30+ Another neat little boat for that was Yaigle ~same amount of cits.

Mainz suffers from a heavy smoke firing penalty (8.9km or something like that?), which seems odd given the gun caliber. If using the first stage smoke, you need to be at the back of it to avoid detection (or drawing fire intended for you into your fellow teammates around you).

The southern route is only noob if you park behind the island instead of getting past it, cross firing the remaining 1st wave and moving to intercept the 2nd wave ships and transport escorts. Sadly though, I see people hiding there all the time with nothing to shoot at.

I usually don't block the Schors, but if my spawn allows, I try to shove it into the smoke screen. It usually sits just outside. Keeps it healthy longer and easier to pick up the capt if it does go down.

[GandalfTehGray]

1 hour ago, xamdam said:

Yep, except I'd use "Tear your HP away in huge, bloody, burning chunks" instead. 🤣 Hopefully they'll dial it back a bit but as it stands right now you get Zaos and Clausewitz (Super Ship...) for the second wave and transport escorts... The sheer amount of HE they spit out is incredible, as is their super-buffed HP. They do switch to AP as well and have tons of torps (which are also buffed in dmg... 30K or more per torp...).

 

I mean them swapping to AP is in your favor if angled and under heavy cruiser fire. 

Also who doesn't love shooting Yamatos? So fun to cit them. 

[ArIskandir]

1 hour ago, xamdam said:

The southern route is only noob if you park behind the island instead of getting past it, cross firing the remaining 1st wave and moving to intercept the 2nd wave ships and transport escorts. Sadly though, I see people hiding there all the time with nothing to shoot at.

It is noob anyway because you waste time and weaken the rest of the team that isn't going south. I only kinda understand it for a CV, for the rest it is not optimal:

1. You miss the 'flat broadside' angle
2. If the team is not a total fail, you won't have time to get broadside shots because there'll be nothing left to shoot (or almost nothing) 
3. You miss the chance to get broadside shots on the second wave
4. Depending on ship selection, you start way out of position to keep engaging the second wave and transport escorts
5. You delay engaging the second wave until it has almost linked to the transport escorts. Waste of time and more difficult for everyone
6. You don't 'share the burden' of tanking damage, you may cause the death of some of your team mates
7. For all the preceedings, it is a self-fulfilled prophesy for a bad match setup. It is 100% noob play. 

[Schnitchelkid01_]

5 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

In essence all ops are  attritional in nature. Meaning the team  has to do maximum possible dmg while taking mininum possible dmg. The problem is, that people, specifically since the Battle On button, DGAFF about survival and  sadly, it is already (!!) a lost art. 

Well Said!!!!

[Nevermore135]

1 hour ago, xamdam said:

Mainz suffers from a heavy smoke firing penalty (8.9km or something like that?), which seems odd given the gun caliber.

A ship’s smoke firing penalty is broadly based not only on its caliber and number of guns, but also its standard surface concealment. Mainz has one of the worst surface concealment values among tier VIII cruisers: 14.84km base and 12.04km fully upgraded. As it stands, her smoke-firing penalty (8.41km base) is just ever so slightly less than her half-sister Admiral Hipper’s (which has 1.05km better base concealment) 8.49km.

Of course, there’s also probably a degree of arbitrary balancing factored in as well, as Mainz’s AP DPM, effective HE DPM + fire-starting capability, and range are all very potent for the tier. I suspect the devs took into account the potential synergy when divisioned with a friend to lay smoke for her to hide in.

[xamdam]

9 hours ago, GandalfTehGray said:

I mean them swapping to AP is in your favor if angled and under heavy cruiser fire. 

Also who doesn't love shooting Yamatos? So fun to cit them. 

Have you played the second round of tier 9~11 Operations on PTS? A friend wants to know. lol

[xamdam]

9 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

A ship’s smoke firing penalty is broadly based not only on its caliber and number of guns, but also its standard surface concealment. Mainz has one of the worst surface concealment values among tier VIII cruisers: 14.84km base and 12.04km fully upgraded. As it stands, her smoke-firing penalty (8.41km base) is just ever so slightly less than her half-sister Admiral Hipper’s (which has 1.05km better base concealment) 8.49km.

Of course, there’s also probably a degree of arbitrary balancing factored in as well, as Mainz’s AP DPM, effective HE DPM + fire-starting capability, and range are all very potent for the tier. I suspect the devs took into account the potential synergy when divisioned with a friend to lay smoke for her to hide in.

Hipper is a CA with 203s though. That said, yes, I agree there was a bit of "balans" placed on Mainz due to its DPM. Not complaining about it, it would be seriously OP without. I was just trying to point out the fact that certain cruisers need to be well aware of their limit in that first smoke screen on Aegis.