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Co-op builds - equipment, commanders, flags


HogHammer

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For all you dedicated co-op players out there, I have a question. Often, I see forum members (primarily co-op players) seeking the best build for ships and commanders. Of course, there are guides for such builds devoted to random battle players.

So, out of ignorance, is there really that much of a difference in the builds used - co-op versus random?  Would there be a need at some point to devote a section on the forum to co-op type builds?

As a mainly random and, at times, competitive player, I honestly would like to know if, when those questions do come up, direct them to the right source for knowledgeable information.

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I'd say that the answer is absolutely yes.

Rather than discuss specific builds. I'll note that there are some commander talents which are, effectively, worthless in COOP. I need to stress I have no idea if these talents are of any value in the other PVE modes, because COOP is my thing. Some of them might well have value in Asymmetric mode, but I've managed fine without them.

I'll just mention the Cruiser talents because those are the ones I'm most familiar with. Off the top of my head I'd say that Superintendant is the best example of such a talent.

I can see the value of it in longer games ... but in COOP a lot of games are over in 5 minutes and you're never going to get through all your consumables in that time. Even a long game of COOP is unlikely to last long enough to use the extra consumable. There are better ways to use that 3 points.

Another one, and I know that this may ruffle some feathers, is Concealment Expert. With the feeding frenzy Meta in COOP, and with the bots using a focus-fire-first-spotted-lowest-health targeting criteria ... the best way to avoid getting shot at is to be crafty with your initial approach. There may well be better ways to spend those 4 points. Remember I'm talking about Cruisers here ... NOT DDs.

And finally ... again due to the feeding frenzy Meta, I find Radio Location of little value. It's not going to take long to know where all the bots are, because your teammates are going to light them up in pretty short order.

I need to stress again, I'm talking about Cruisers in COOP. All of those talents I find either useless, or their purpose is better served by playing a bit smarter in the opening moves of the game.

 

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Generally speaking, you can take any PvP build into Co-op and it won't really hurt you beyond perhaps a few of your skills being dead weight. If you are primarily a PvP player, you shouldn't go and re-spec a bunch of commanders for Co-op unless you have a bunch of spares just sitting around, because min/maxing a commander for bot bashing will leave you at a disadvantage when you go back to hunting live game. There are definitely a whole class of builds that you should only run in Co-op, focused on maximizing damage output at the expense of skills and upgrades that would be almost mandatory in PvE.

You can forego the usual survival skills in BBs, because the matches just won't last long enough, often enough, to get much benefit out of them. For the same reason, you can ignore Superintendent on cruisers and DDs; you will almost never have a match long enough to use even all your stock consumable charges, let alone extras. Consumable duration, likewise, won't offer much benefit; as long as you wait to pop hydro or smoke until you're actually in danger, it'll usually last the whole engagement without any help, and a longer action time on your first charge might actually prevent you from using a second charge if you need it.

Instead, take your pick of damage buffs, reload buffs, and secondary skills; Co-op is a damage race, and the more you can throw downrange, the higher your scores will be.

BBs benefit greatly from full secondary builds, even if they don't have particularly good secondaries. You will be pushing and brawling if you want a decent score, so you will end up in range to use them in most games, and they'll contribute something even if it's only a fire or two. Secondary spec also gives you CQC, which buffs main battery reload, so you multiply your gains. If you're feeling particularly adventurous you can even take Furious, because if you're brawling, you will be on fire, so you might as well get something out of it.

Cruisers can also get away with secondary builds, if they have enough barrels to matter, but if you have torps you probably want to grab the damage buff that comes with the secondary range skill anyway. Top-Grade Gunner is probably the best skill to take; again, you're going to be brawling if you want a good score, so you're going to be inside your surface detect range, and you might as well get the reload buff. Lighthouse builds can be very good... but as SunkCost noted, bots tend to focus on the first thing they see, especially if it has a small HP pool, so be careful running lighthouse on the squishier CLs. More often, being the second thing they notice will leave you more opportunities to farm damage and pad your score out.

For DDs, Fearless Brawler is good stacked with MB/AA Specialist; you can ignore range, because you'll be knife fighting most of the time. Fill The Tubes is good if you have a long initial load time on a fast ship, because you'll want to dash for the cap right off spawn and some DDs can close the distance too fast for their torps to load before they engage (Marceau has this issue). Priority Target tells you when the bots are ignoring you, so it can alert you to opportunities to make otherwise-suicidal plays that grab you big damage fast.

So... TL;DR: If you want to spec out a dedicated Co-op commander, or build a few ships for PvE, you can absolutely do that... but if you're going to be playing mainly PvP, stick with those builds, because while you can take a PvP build into Co-op and do just fine, even if it isn't optimal, doing the reverse will probably get you killed.

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With co-op being a rush in and hit as hard as you can way of playing, builds should focus on damage and not survivability.

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Good points made above re Co-op builds. A few of my Co-op ships have RADIO LOCATION 4 point skill. I have a different opinion on this RL skill to that voiced above, with due respect.

RL really is an excellent skill for Co-op. It gives you early warning when the bots are moving in some other direction. It enables you to select between two or three possible routes, knowing the direction of the closest enemy ship. It enables you to avoid most of those unfortunate scenarios where you are left high and dry. with the bots clustering on the other side of the map.

While RL is worth its weight in gold in Co-op, it is much less frequently a good 4-point investment in PvP.

Edited by Bumblegoose
clarification
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2 hours ago, HogHammer said:

For all you dedicated co-op players out there, I have a question. Often, I see forum members (primarily co-op players) seeking the best build for ships and commanders. Of course, there are guides for such builds devoted to random battle players.

So, out of ignorance, is there really that much of a difference in the builds used - co-op versus random?  Would there be a need at some point to devote a section on the forum to co-op type builds?

As a mainly random and, at times, competitive player, I honestly would like to know if, when those questions do come up, direct them to the right source for knowledgeable information.

Co-op is faster paced than random battle mode.  Co-op can be compared it to a shark "feeding frenzy".
Typically matches last less than 7 minutes.
If a match lasts longer than that, I begin to wonder if my team-mates are slackers.  🙂 

Moving along...  🙂 

Dealing damage to targets is a priority.  High-output "Alpha strike" capability is desirable.
Reloading all armaments (including torpedoes) as soon as possible is beneficial.
Sailing a fast hull is beneficial.

Wading into "torpedo soup" and "just dodging" incoming ordnance of all types may benefit from a fast rudder-shift and a smaller turning radius.
With such maneuvering, gun turrets that rotate quickly are preferable, to avoid out-turning one's own turrets.
Secondary-battery gun builds are useful.

It also helps to become familiar with 'Bot behaviors & capabilities.
~'Bots tend to play the map objectives and charge forward with courageous enthusiasm.
~They may alter course periodically or may somehow detect an incoming torpedo salvo and alter their speed & course to evade.
(This can be dealt with in a couple of ways.  1.  a point-blank launch of torpedoes gives the target insufficient time & distance to evade.  2.  Target a ship with torpedoes, then launch torpedoes, and then target another ship with your guns or de-select the ship to turn-off the "target lock".  In my experience, the torpedo targeted ship may be less vigilant when it's not being targeted by my guns.  I don't know why or how.  But, I've observed this happening and I'm passing it along.)
~'Bot gunnery can vary. 
Some may snipe a green-team ship from accross the map. 
Others may fire several times before "getting the range" and begin to score hits on green-team ships that are shooting at them or are a target of opportunity.
'Bot turrets aren't always "in synch" and aft turrets may seem to be pointing at a different target than the fore turrets (maybe?).
~'Bot CV's squadrons always "know" where the green-team ships are, but have to "detect" them before beginning an attack.  Their aim has improved in recent years, too.
Use the mini-map to monitor 'Bot CV squadrons and their movements.  If they approach one's ship, be ready to maneuver and "just dodge".
(Side-note, I'm not sure how the new CV mechanics being tested on the TST Server will affect 'Bot CV's in the future.)

Terrain.
Most maps have some islands of varying sizes and positions.  
Depending upon where one's ship spawns, choosing a viable path will bring one close to the red-team ships as soon as possible.
Choosing a path which leads to fewer 'Bots, or no 'Bots at all, might allow your team-mates to gather more rewards from damaging and sinking 'Bot ships.
Choose (your path of sailing) wisely.  🙂 

If you have green-team 'Bots as allies, observe where they go. 
They may indicate where the opposition ships are by sailing directly towards them, sometimes.

Co-op battles reward aggressive play.
That said, try to control how many ships you're fighting at the same time. 
They can focus their firepower upon you, especially if you're the nearest or the only target.
I've seen them pull some "clever girl" moves every so often, and I've seen 'Bots "level-up" and proceed to sink multiple ships on occasion.
I'm not sure about the "how" or the "why", but it has made my study of 'Bot behaviors interesting.  🙂 
There's even a topic devoted to showing when the 'Bots out-perform humans.  
https://www.devstrike.net/topic/3320-skynet-hall-of-fame/
 

Camping.
If you "camp" behind an island, then don't be surprised if your team-mates (who charge ahead at full-speed) score more damage and sink more ships.
Same is true if you remain "at the back of the map" or near the "spawning location(s)".

A risky, but bold, method of avoiding torpedo damage is to sail close enough to a red-team ship to be inside the arming-distance of their torpedoes.
Making such an approach during a "jousting pass" may demand careful sailing and good timing.  
Make a mistake and one could get sunk.
But, doing it properly could save your aft, someday.  🙂 

Cooperation.
It is "Co-op" and occasionally a player may ask for help with their mission to score certain ribbons or perform certain tasks, such as capturing an area.
If they ask nicely, then consider helping them or allowing them at least one good opportunity to make progress on their mission task.


Trying stuff.
Because Co-op is usually a relaxed environment, at least socially, players sometimes ask to try a new (to them) ship or some new (to them) tactic.
Let's face it, Co-op is a good place to "try stuff", especially if one informs one's team-mates and asks nicely for a chance to work some new magic.
Bold, crazy, risky, or even *weird*, ain't going to be a problem in Co-op.
If it works, everyone can applaud.  
If it doesn't work, then everyone can score the damage and sink the 'Bots who evaded the "new and wonderous" technique that epically failed.  🙂 

Humor.
Good jokes are welcome.  Witty conversation is welcome.

Navigation.

A little polite communication goes a long way towards keeping our ships from colliding.
If a collision does happen, some polite "oops, sorry" sentiments are usually appreciated.
That being said, sometimes players' situational awareness gets overwhelmed and they become an ornament on another ship's bow.
Life goes on.  🙂 

Multi-tasking.
Your time is limited.
The battle timer is for 20 minutes.  A typical Co-op battle is over in less than half that amout of time.
So, use your situational awareness and experience to select, target, and score damage upon as many red-team ships as possible, as often as possible.
If you're not moving, shooting and communicating, then perhaps you're not fully utilizing all your talents and assets?

Sinking secured.
It is poor etiquette to complain to your team-mates about them sinking a ship that you've been scoring damage upon (but failed to sink soon enough to prevent them from sinking the ship).
Instead, say "Well done!" or "nice shot".  

I would much rather have team-mates that are capable of sinking red-team ships quickly, than find myself or an ally sunk by a red-team ship that was allowed to remain afloat too long and run wild.  🙂 

"Good game" or "gg"

Good sportsmanship is appreciated.  Goodwill is appreciated.  🙂 
 

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4 hours ago, HogHammer said:

For all you dedicated co-op players out there, I have a question. Often, I see forum members (primarily co-op players) seeking the best build for ships and commanders. Of course, there are guides for such builds devoted to random battle players.

So, out of ignorance, is there really that much of a difference in the builds used - co-op versus random?  Would there be a need at some point to devote a section on the forum to co-op type builds?

As a mainly random and, at times, competitive player, I honestly would like to know if, when those questions do come up, direct them to the right source for knowledgeable information.

You could most likely build a light-house style build on most things in co-op. Just maximize the main gun/torp DPM along with speed to get to the enemy before anyone else.

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3 hours ago, Bumblegoose said:

Good points made above re Co-op builds. A few of my Co-op ships have RADIO LOCATION 4 point skill. I have a different opinion on this RL skill to that voiced above, with due respect.

RL really is an excellent skill for Co-op. It gives you early warning when the bots are moving in some other direction. It enables you to select between two or three possible routes, knowing the direction of the closest enemy ship. It enables you to avoid most of those unfortunate scenarios where you are left high and dry. with the bots clustering on the other side of the map.

While RL is worth its weight in gold in Co-op, it is much less frequently a good 4-point investment in PvP.

I hear what you're saying.

The reason I disagree is that the bots are pretty predictable over time. Certainly there is variation ... sometimes the bots do something unexpected, I'm not suggesting that.

But with enough matches, it's pretty easy to have a very good idea of where the bots are going to go, and with the feeding frenzy meta, it's a rare match that the majority of bots aren't lit up in short order anyway.

But to each their own ... I'm pleased that you find RL of value. Remember that I'm talking only about Cruisers and I tend to play fast cruisers so I generally don't need early warning if the bots are charging for the other side of the map.

Either way ... my post wasn't so much to list all the ways that COOP and PVP builds differ, it was to highlight that there ARE ways and to give examples so as to answer @HogHammer's question.

 

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50 minutes ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

You could most likely build a light-house style build on most things in co-op. Just maximize the main gun/torp DPM along with speed to get to the enemy before anyone else.

 

I run a lighthouse build on my Salem, but it's really the only ship I run that way because of the uber zombie-heal.

I tend to find that with more fragile ships, the bot algorithm can be pretty punishing if you end up with 4 or 5 bots targeting you, which I do often if I charge in too fast.

But I might not be as good at dodging these days ... gettin old and all that.

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This is JMHO so take it FWIW. Co-op builds in general should maximize damage dealing, armament reload, and ship speed. Other skills are still useful but not as useful as in PVP (some skills like fire prevention on BB's for example is a complete waste however for Co-op these days) and are what you use skill points on when you have already buffed the things I mention previously you actually want to. The one thing that is kind of contradictory to that is I still recommend concealment builds; and doing so early on. Even though you will get close and be shooting, so detection isn't the same deal as it is in PVP, it is nice not to be the 1st one spotted and focused by the bots (unless you want to for potential damage of course and then you can just start shooting right off and get spotted quick). I run concealment on almost everything except CV's for Co-op. Sometimes you actually want/need it. AA skills are a complete waste for Co-op. They are pretty much for PVP too with how poor they are but in Co-op CV's don't dodge flak at all and there is just no need of AA skills and/or modules. Base AA is all that is needed for Co-op. 

For class types specifically...

  • BB's: secondary guns if they are any good AT ALL, and especially so if the ship has good secondaries, should be built into at least around T6/T7+. You will be able to use them in Co-op most games and they can help. Even something like say a North Carolina or an OG British BB that you wouldn't think of as a secondary build ship will do decent with it in Co-op. Go Brisk. This can be a HUGE help in Co-op. It lets you get into the fight faster or get across the map late game to farm a little extra damage faster. On the rare occasion when you have to run it helps there too. Even a fast BB that already does 33 knots gets Brisk for me. The faster the better so you can get to the bots before the DD's and torp Cruisers sink everything. It will help really slow BB's like US standard ones too (Colorado for example with Brisk + speed flag hits 24.3 knots when undetected). Brisk no longer helps once detected but it gets you closer early on much faster which can be a huge help (plus late and such as said). I run it on most of my BB's now for Co-op (and PVP) ever since trying it out on Atlantico. Won't be without it now. About the only time I don't is on Capt's that are already at 21pts and don't have it. It's too expensive to reset the Capt. Turret traverse improvements and main gun reload are huge for Co-op as you brawl so much. I tend to run rudder shift over propulsion as you are always close and in bot torp soup and the extra wiggle and jiggle is a big help. Fire Prevention in Co-op is a waste like AA skills.
  • Cruisers: the skill Survivability Expert that gives a set amount of extra HP for tier around T6/T7+ becomes worthwhile. You will be close (if you aren't you are playing Co-op wrong) and take damage from secondaries, and when you are close is about the only time the bots can hit stuff these days, so any extra HP is a bonus. Demolition Expert for the increased fire chance is ok but I prefer the increased AP performance from the Heavy AP skill when it can be used. In Co-op you will be close and get a lot of broadsides to hammer so it is worth it on more than just US CA's. Consumable buffs are good (smoke, hydro, heal, etc... when available). Cruiser secondary builds are not out of the question for Co-op if the ship has some decent ones. I do secondary builds on most German CA's. Hindenburg and Clausewitz are really good at it for ships you wouldn't think of (like Napoli, Agir, Siegfried, Carnot, etc...) as is Puerto Rico if you have it. The T9/T10 French Cruiser Brest and Marseille also have decent secondaries. The Top Grade Gunner skill + the Pack A Punch skill (+ torp damage and + secondary range) can make for a mean secondary build. Even if you don't have torps that extra secondary range can be useful on some ships. IFHE can be useful although I personally don't run it as 4 pts is too much IMO. Last stand if you have an extra point can be useful on CL's. For T9+ in slot 6 many times I will forgo reload for range. Like Des Moines for instance. The base reload is pretty good and MBM3 doesn't lower it much as a result. Its gun range however sucks and running the range mod adds a lot of range so you can shoot earlier and for longer. Might be hard to hit humans as 18km with Des Moines but not bots. I run range mod in slot 6 over MBM3 a LOT. Unlike BB's I tend to run propulsion over rudder for Cruisers as their base rudder shift is usually ok. Propulsion seems to help more for me. On a Cruiser with really bad rudder shift I will go that route but I tend to favor propulsion mod.
  • DD's: although already mentioned in the opening as a general thing 100% absolutely go for torp reload (and protecting your torp wracks). + speed and flooding is optional but the reload isn't. Torps will be your main damage dealer in Co-op (if you have them of course) so build into them no question. Survivability Expert and Last Stand are pretty much mandatory for Co-op as you will be close (if you are playing the mode right) and the biggest threat from bots gun wise is secondaries. You can juke the main guns of bots pretty good but the secondaries will bust you up. Extra consumables and faster reload of them are a good use of skill points for DD's in Co-op. If you have a DD with poor torps or no torps the Main Battery & AA Expert skill that adds +20% to the gun range works well. You will have more pts than needed with a 21 pt Capt for DD's in Co-op as all they really need is to reload the torps as fast as possible and to protect the torp wracks. I run torp modules slot 3 and 6 (unless no torps at all), engine room protection in 2, and propulsion over rudder. IMO radio location on a DD (or any ship) for Co-op is just wasting points. The bots don't run and hide or get sneaky ; to the contrary they come for you no matter where you are and shoot as soon as possible revealing themselves. It is not needed. 
  • CV's: Invest in plane health as a top priority. There is 1 2pt skill, 2 3pt skills, and 1 4pt skill and you want them all T8+ (the 2pt skill is wasted on T4 and T6 CV's as they don't have the plane repair consumable). In Co-op you are almost always attacking ships that are grouped up and bots properly cycle AA unlike a lot of humans. Their flak seems exceedingly accurate as well (almost reminds me of how the old bots shot main guns and never missed). You WILL lose planes in Co-op so max their survivability as the games are so short you don't have time to fly around looking for an easy target or waiting for HE spam to deplete AA; you have to attack from the get go or the game will be over. The Improved Engine skill for faster planes helps. Don't waste points on the fighter skills. After all the HP improvement skills are had go for the Swift Flying Fish (faster torps) and Proximity Fuse (TDR reduction for torps) skills (as long as the CV has torps). Increased HE or AP bomb performance skills are decent too as are sight stabilizing if you have extra points. If you have a German CV go secondaries and head for the closest cap and have a blast (especially Graf Zeppelin). For modules again go for HP, plane speed, and improved performance of torps and bombs (whichever you prefer/is the strength of the CV - Rocket planes just don't last in Co-op - bot AA nukes them fast - so kind of a waste improving them). Flight Control Mod 1 (slot 5) when available is a must pick as it adds more planes on deck and decreases regen time. 
  • Subs: no idea. Don't and won't touch them.

So FWIW that is my opinion on Co-op builds. The way you play Co-op vs PVP definitely plays into your Capt skill and upgrade module picks. If you only play Co-op then build for that mode alone and you will do better than if using popular PVP builds for your ships. You can take a suboptimal (for Co-op) PVP Capt and build to Co-op and still do ok but it doesn't work as well the other way around. If you mainly play PVP or even play it a fair amount with mostly Co-op you will want to go with PVP optimal builds. Captains and modules are far more important for PVP than Co-op. When I started finally playing PVP some in 2021 my Captains all being built with Co-op optimal builds hurt me. I now have PVP optimal builds on any ship I play in Randoms. It isn't as good for Co-op but I get by whereas having a Co-op build would really hurt me in PVP (like a secondary build on NC).

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10 hours ago, Bumblegoose said:

Good points made above re Co-op builds. A few of my Co-op ships have RADIO LOCATION 4 point skill. I have a different opinion on this RL skill to that voiced above, with due respect.

RL really is an excellent skill for Co-op. It gives you early warning when the bots are moving in some other direction. It enables you to select between two or three possible routes, knowing the direction of the closest enemy ship. It enables you to avoid most of those unfortunate scenarios where you are left high and dry. with the bots clustering on the other side of the map.

While RL is worth its weight in gold in Co-op, it is much less frequently a good 4-point investment in PvP.

Last night I read this ^^^, and I wasn't sure what to think about it.
On the one hand, it's nice to know the direction to the nearest red-team ship, so you can turn your guns towards it.
On the other hand, 4 skill points might be more useful in the Fire Prevention skill or something else (if playing exclusively in Co-op), especially if one is on a "tight budget" of skill points.
But, if one plays their ship in all game modes with the same Captain, then Radio Direction Finding is likely to be beneficial.
For Captain's skill builds that spend time in random battles, I tend to get Concealment Expert before RDF, as a personal preference.

7 hours ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

I hear what you're saying.

The reason I disagree is that the bots are pretty predictable over time. Certainly there is variation ... sometimes the bots do something unexpected, I'm not suggesting that.

But with enough matches, it's pretty easy to have a very good idea of where the bots are going to go, and with the feeding frenzy meta, it's a rare match that the majority of bots aren't lit up in short order anyway.

But to each their own ... I'm pleased that you find RL of value. Remember that I'm talking only about Cruisers and I tend to play fast cruisers so I generally don't need early warning if the bots are charging for the other side of the map.

Either way ... my post wasn't so much to list all the ways that COOP and PVP builds differ, it was to highlight that there ARE ways and to give examples so as to answer @HogHammer's question.

 

I read this post ^^^^, this morning.
As I interpret the post, a seasoned & savvy player can use their wisdom, expertise and situational awareness to perform as well without using RDF.
If so, then why bother spending the points on RDF in a build intended exlusively for the Co-op environment?
Especially if skill points are not abundant, right?

I figure it becomes a choice that each player makes according to their personal criteria. 
The way I reckon it, there's no "wrong" choice, as long as the player is well-informed about the pros & cons.
 

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12 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

As I interpret the post, a seasoned & savvy player can use their wisdom, expertise and situational awareness to perform as well without using RDF.
If so, then why bother spending the points on RDF in a build intended exlusively for the Co-op environment?

Something like that. SaluteSmiley.gif.d201e2f70da9e26e45200f81833dbaa0.gif

I think a part of it is that it's a 4 point skill which is frequently going to see minimal value in a COOP match unless the bots do the unexpected.

Were it a 1 or 2 point skill I'd see it as being more viable for a build, but even though I am dedicated to Dakka, some Cruisers seem to call for points in the torp skills ... for instance I recently bought the Takahashi. I think I can definitely get more bang for my buck, as it were, spending the points elsewhere.

Either way, I think we've pretty well illustrated for @HogHammer that COOP builds (probably PVE builds in general) are quite likely to deviate from the PVP builds.

 

Edited by SunkCostFallacy
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For Operations, since I rarely play standard COOP, I do use different builds than I would in PVP. Concealment for one isn't nearly as important since you're usually spotted anyway. Radar is limited to a few Ops and even then doesn't really have much impact. Speed boost either, since the bots are experts at leading you (it does help in dodging though as long as you see the shells coming). 

One thing I do use is Radio Location on several ships. Mainly for UF and Raptor Rescue. It's not that useful on most other Ops though but can really help in deciding your strat on those two. Also, on some cruisers I run both Incoming Fire Alert AND Priority Target. This helps me get out of some sure-death situations at times when playing aggressively (which I usually am...).

But, with the upcoming increase in tiers, it might take a while to figure out what works best.  

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