Shinano and Archerfish just announced.

[Nevermore135]

5 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

What's wrong with British sub other than the concealment, anyway? They're the worst performing sub TX according to tomato.gg. I found it fine more or less? 

Not having two torpedo options is a bit of a bummer.

[Wolfswetpaws]

5 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

What's wrong with British sub other than the concealment, anyway? They're the worst performing sub TX according to tomato.gg. I found it fine more or less? 

I've got the tech-tree British Submarines in my Port (Tier-6, Tier-8 and Tier-10).

They were (before the nerf to torpedo warheads and the silly 3k arbitrary threshold) not bad.
They had competitive concealment circles.
They had a substantial amount of dive-capacity.
Their top-speed was slow, compared to their German and US Navy counterparts.
Their limited torpedo armament (homing torpedoes only) was somewhat mitigated by the agility of the torpedoes themselves (early on, at least).

Nowadays, since the submarine torpedo warhead nerf (3 km arming threshold), the British Submarines are 'mostly harmless' (like other submarines) once an opponent gets within 3 km.

They lack the dive-capacity consumable of the German Submarines, and lack the dumb-fired torpedoes (with more powerful warheads).

While the history of British Submarines is interesting and offers some "collector" value, they're something of a niche-market item in-game (as far as I can discern).
If played well, they can be an obstacle to the red-team. 
But they lack the speed to avoid being over-run, and they lack "alpha damage" to quickly sink some ships.

Personally, playing a British Submarine is a "challenge accepted" situation, in my opinion.
Sometimes, that's what a player is looking for, though.  🙂 

[ArIskandir]

54 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

What's wrong with British sub other than the concealment, anyway?

That their design is centered on using ping/homing torps, which goes against the elemental Submarine doctrine of being silent & stealthy. What is a Submarine that's not 'silent' nor stealthy?  ... some gamey aberration that does not deserve the classification of Submarine. It's like having a CV without planes but with a deadly 15km range  rapid fire gun battery (ooops)... 

[Jakob Knight]

46 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

That their design is centered on using ping/homing torps, which goes against the elemental Submarine doctrine of being silent & stealthy. What is a Submarine that's not 'silent' nor stealthy?  ... some gamey aberration that does not deserve the classification of Submarine. It's like having a CV without planes but with a deadly 15km range  rapid fire gun battery (ooops)... 

 

I had to stop thinking of the I-56 as a Sub and start thinking of it as a torpedo cruiser that can submerge in order to get it to work.  Without stealth, a Sub really can't function as a Sub without sinking quick.

[Itwastuesday]

1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

That their design is centered on using ping/homing torps, which goes against the elemental Submarine doctrine of being silent & stealthy. What is a Submarine that's not 'silent' nor stealthy?  ... some gamey aberration that does not deserve the classification of Submarine. It's like having a CV without planes but with a deadly 15km range  rapid fire gun battery (ooops)... 

My theory is that announcing your presence can be good as it herds the enemy away from you and makes them look into your direction to send bombs that won't hit anyway. Sometimes people even turn to chase you, exposing themselves and at the minimum wasting their time. 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

20 hours ago, aleksi111 said:

I wonder what unique trait Archerfish gets

Maybe a special ping CV's can automatically remove & +50% Damage against CVs?

I would buy that for a Dollar!

 

20 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

no.... Dev blog reads as:

 

 

(didn't get the quote) But what I can read it looks like a really shitty Submarine. Like a really shitty budget version of U-4501, and then im mostly comparing the short range homing and short reload. But when U-4501 is a Monster in capable hands, this looks really crap. No one in their right mind would buy or play this over the U-4501 which is almost like a underwater Benham but with sub Alpha. 

                      ........And a Heal......

 

Also what was WG smoking when they came up with the Combat instructions?!
"Combat Instructions:

Progress per 10 seconds while spotted - 4%

Progress per main battery shell hit - 8%

Progress per torpedo hit - 2%

Activation effect: 

Consumable preparation and reload time -90%"

So you need to keep being spotted and hopefully get some "Main battery hits" in, this already = Suicide and a Dead Sub .... to hope you activate the instruction .......... to get faster reload of consumables........!? You wont need you sub hydro, because if you spotted for as long as it needs to activate .... Youre dead!

15 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

Don’t worry, they’ll just rework subs in a year or two.

Im not that sure to be honest. I think WG thinks they "balanced" subs enough for a long time just because they nerfed the shotgun a bit. Also a Major part of the playerbase playing subs are really crap at it and dies in like 3-4 min so their holy spreadsheets probably say Subs are way underpowered so im almost expecting a huge Buff for subs in the coming future instead of any nerf.

 

And people should also stop saying Gato is bad/cripled/nerfed by the shotgun nerf. Its still just as OP A-F in capable hands. Just search for Gato vids on YT since the shotgun nerf and you see what that sub is capable of. Even if you're crap at playing subs, Gato is pretty much a torp spewing UU Gering that can duck underwater when even it to get hot. Avoid planes, radars, hydro and other DDs. You can still sit 2.2 km away from a Yamato or Hannover and blast it out of the water.

A sub should Never try and go for a shotgun on a DD, if that happens you dont really understand youre part in the game. 

 

Also, is there ANYONE that wont call the nrew T10 Pan American DD for "La La La La La ......LA BAMBA.....!!!"    Also Torp spam Deluxe! ! ! 3x5 torp launchers 10,5 km with TRB and Heal and smoke.....?! Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn           Torp Based Legendary Captain (Just like Pan Asian one) WHEN?!?!?

Edited August 2 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube

[ArIskandir]

9 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

My theory is that announcing your presence can be good as it herds the enemy away from you and makes them look into your direction to send bombs that won't hit anyway. Sometimes people even turn to chase you, exposing themselves and at the minimum wasting their time. 

Beyond if it can work as a concept (it can be effective, I have first hand experience on that), the problem is ping/homing playstyle IS NOT what you would expect of Submarine gameplay, it is not what I, as a Submarine enthusiat, signed up for... A Submarine's playstyle should be all about silently sneaking into an advantageous position in order to deliver a devastating surprise attack (backstab/shotgun), the thrill of silently stalking and hunting your prey  knowing a mistep will spell your doom... that's the experience you'll expect from playing Subs and that premise is not fulfilled because that's not 'mainstream' compatible. 

So WG's 'winning' logic was, Submarines are not compatible with the 'mainstream' taste, so we will deliver non-Submarines engineered to please a 'mainstream' taste that doesn't even exist... 

[Itwastuesday]

22 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Beyond if it can work as a concept (it can be effective, I have first hand experience on that), the problem is ping/homing playstyle IS NOT what you would expect of Submarine gameplay, it is not what I, as a Submarine enthusiat, signed up for... A Submarine's playstyle should be all about silently sneaking into an advantageous position in order to deliver a devastating surprise attack (backstab/shotgun), the thrill of silently stalking and hunting your prey  knowing a mistep will spell your doom... that's the experience you'll expect from playing Subs and that premise is not fulfilled because that's not 'mainstream' compatible. 

So WG's 'winning' logic was, Submarines are not compatible with the 'mainstream' taste, so we will deliver non-Submarines engineered to please a 'mainstream' taste that doesn't even exist... 

Ah. Yes, I understand. What I do is almost completely the opposite of what you describe (sneaking into position applies). I just don't care. I feel like the ideal submarine game must be singleplayer, or perhaps some co-op thing. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Jakob Knight said:

 

I had to stop thinking of the I-56 as a Sub and start thinking of it as a torpedo cruiser that can submerge in order to get it to work.  Without stealth, a Sub really can't function as a Sub without sinking quick.

The I-56 is oriented towards sinking capitol ships (CV's and BB's), provided she can get into a favorable torpedo-launching position.
Her concealment (or lack thereof) is a challenge to work with, especially given her small amount of dive-capacity.

But, I do enjoy sinking low-health ships with her deck-gun.  😉 

[Wolfswetpaws]

47 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

My theory is that announcing your presence can be good as it herds the enemy away from you and makes them look into your direction to send bombs that won't hit anyway. Sometimes people even turn to chase you, exposing themselves and at the minimum wasting their time. 

That was a common reaction in the past to being pinged.
Some players still do it (retreat at the first indication of a submarine).
Other players are more than willing and able to fight submarines effectively, using a combination of gunfire and depthcharges (aerial and stern-dropped).
As players (on the whole) gained experience with submarines, they became a lot less afraid of them.

[ArIskandir]

7 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Ah. Yes, I understand. What I do is almost completely the opposite of what you describe (sneaking into position applies). I just don't care. I feel like the ideal submarine game must be singleplayer, or perhaps some co-op thing. 

I think it was a very interesting proposition to have PvP for Submarines, but it really never had a chance with a 'mainstream' playerbase and WG's goals... there's no way to settle both and deliver a true Submarine-like play loop... I mean, it can be done and at some point they were close to it, but they 'fliched' and cave in to both player and executive pressure (at least that's my read).

[Wolfswetpaws]

41 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

And people should also stop saying Gato is bad/cripled/nerfed by the shotgun nerf. Its still just as OP A-F in capable hands. Just search for Gato vids on YT since the shotgun nerf and you see what that sub is capable of. Even if you're crap at playing subs, Gato is pretty much a torp spewing UU Gering that can duck underwater when even it to get hot. Avoid planes, radars, hydro and other DDs. You can still sit 2.2 km away from a Yamato or Hannover and blast it out of the water.

 

I would agree with saying that the Gato was the least affected by the Submarine torpedo nerf. 
But ...
The Gato was still affected, and her torps hit like fluffy-bunny-kisses if they can't travel 3+ km.
So, that's why I disagree with your "2.2 km away" assertion.

That being said, her 16.5 km torpedoes give her the flexibility to remain surfaced and undetected most of the time and to target ships from a distance.
Whether or not her dumb-fired torpedoes actually hit anything that maneuvers (often enough) is another story entirely.  😉 

[Itwastuesday]

25 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

That was a common reaction in the past to being pinged.
Some players still do it (retreat at the first indication of a submarine).
Other players are more than willing and able to fight submarines effectively, using a combination of gunfire and depthcharges (aerial and stern-dropped).
As players (on the whole) gained experience with submarines, they became a lot less afraid of them.

Dunno, seems to me nothing has changed in that regard. Nobody wants to eat a conga line of torps. Nobody should, really, if they can help it.

[ArIskandir]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

And people should also stop saying Gato is bad/cripled/nerfed by the shotgun nerf.

The problem is not the nerf making it Bad. It is the moronic concept of making a playable unit defenseless at close range, when they are intended to opérate at close range. A CV might be handicapped at close range but was never intended to be at close range in the first place. A Sub is intended to be at close range, and usualy it is slower that it's hunter-killer... On whose mind is roll-over and die a good response to being pushed?

[Nevermore135]

43 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

I feel like the ideal submarine game must be singleplayer, or perhaps some co-op thing. 

I agree with this.

The problem WG has with subs is that submarine enthusiasts want the slow, patient, stalking and ambush predator gameplay loop described above. There are a couple problems with that. The first is that this type of playstyle, if implemented with any degree of historical inspiration, would not appeal to much of the playerbase (and we’d see sub numbers of the sort of CV numbers that existed pre-rework, albeit for different reasons). The other issue is that being on the receiving end of this type of “historical purist” gameplay would be almost universally not enjoyable for the subs target when things go right (or for the sub when things go wrong). In a video game players understandably expect some degree of “fairness” and don’t enjoy being helpless and dying instantly to an unseen foe against which the only “counterplay” is being better at predicting your opponents actions than they are at predicting yours and setting up that perfect ambush.

This works great for a specialized single player game where the high-risk, high-reward thrill is the major draw and there are no human players to be the targets, but in a 12v12 PvP death match it would just be awkward.

That’s how we’ve ended up with the current gameplay experience that is so widely disliked. For many of those that wanted subs in the game the experience fails to meet their expectations, and for those not playing submarines having to deal with them is more annoying than anything else. The end results is neither camp is really enjoying the interaction, regardless of which side of the ping they are on.

Edited August 2 by Nevermore135

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I would agree with saying that the Gato was the least affected by the Submarine torpedo nerf. 
But ...
The Gato was still affected, and her torps hit like fluffy-bunny-kisses if they can't travel 3+ km.
So, that's why I disagree with your "2.2 km away" assertion.

That being said, her 16.5 km torpedoes give her the flexibility to remain surfaced and undetected most of the time and to target ships from a distance.
Whether or not her dumb-fired torpedoes actually hit anything that maneuvers (often enough) is another story entirely.  😉 

Yup, my bad, I ment 3.1 km, which ingame is almost right up against the hull.

I would say it is of course affected by the nerf since it's a nerf to all subs, but no sub in this game should ever have "Shotgunning DDs" as a tactic, then you failed. That was just an unfortunate effect of WG´s BS implementation and poor testing. (Even Ashance said Shotgunning wasent a thing and then got Shotgunned by a Sub and then he blamed poor drifting....)

But at the same time, considering the buffs to ASW that for the most effect every other "ping sub" in this game Except for Gato that never has to ping or give its position away, and Gato Nukes still being the same Gato Nukes, that can pretty much dev strike any BB in the game, I cant really feel Gato has been so nerfed that many complain about. 

As I said, if a player is bad at playing Subs he can still sit in a cap and keep it safe while amounting 140 K in spotting and 300 Base XP and just spam 16 km Nukes on cooldown while doing donuts in the cap ..... And just submerge whenever something scary even comes close.

 

Gato and U-4501 still remain the go to OP/Broken subs and I dont think any new ones (almost like Annapolis and Conde) will come even close to them. This new one is just sad.

Edited August 2 by OldSchoolGaming_Youtube

[oldblackdog]

1 hour ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Also, is there ANYONE that wont call the nrew T10 Pan American DD for "La La La La La ......LA BAMBA.....!!!"    Also Torp spam Deluxe! ! ! 3x5 torp launchers 10,5 km with TRB and Heal and smoke.....?! Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn           Torp Based Legendary Captain (Just like Pan Asian one) WHEN?!?!?

I predict this ship will be the subject of much fear and loathing among those who are its victims...

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

2 minutes ago, oldblackdog said:

I predict this ship will be the subject of much fear and loathing among those who are its victims...

Its a bit weird how every new thing WG implements makes this game even more stale and campy. Soon we will have Cassards flooding the game when that line gets released and soon also this thing that will have 3 torp launchers wit TRB and heal and smoke.............. and a Combat instruction that activates just by being a sneaky bugger ... in a sneaky torp DD ......

It will be a torp soup fiesta!

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

52 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

The problem is not the nerf making it Bad. It is the moronic concept of making a playable unit defenseless at close range, when they are intended to opérate at close range. A CV might be handicapped at close range but was never intended to be at close range in the first place. A Sub is intended to be at close range, and usualy it is slower that it's hunter-killer... On whose mind is roll-over and die a good response to being pushed?

But I dont understand why everyone need to play Gato with its 16.5km Nukes close range? U-4501 I need to play close range because I have 10 km range and if BB manouvers I need to be almost 6-7 km away from him. But Gato you can just shadow BBs and spamming torps on cooldown. I dont know how kmany torp hits I gotten on BBs I didn't even have spotted. I just throw them out and some minute later I get hits.

And how is it defenseless close range? You can hydro DDs on hydro cooldown with some 7-9 km range and then you just dive and avade. You have unlimited amount of sub hydros.

[oldblackdog]

5 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

Its a bit weird how every new thing WG implements makes this game even more stale and campy. Soon we will have Cassards flooding the game when that line gets released and soon also this thing that will have 3 torp launchers wit TRB and heal and smoke.............. and a Combat instruction that activates just by being a sneaky bugger ... in a sneaky torp DD ......

It will be a torp soup fiesta!

Yeah...high tier battles will become a festival of back line camping, island-humping, and sniping. Nobody will push, but everyone will scream for spotting. 

[Itwastuesday]

6 minutes ago, oldblackdog said:

Yeah...high tier battles will become a festival of back line camping, island-humping, and sniping. Nobody will push, but everyone will scream for spotting. 

Well, that's what they are now and have been for quite a while. 

[ArIskandir]

6 minutes ago, OldSchoolGaming_Youtube said:

And how is it defenseless close range? You can hydro DDs on hydro cooldown with some 7-9 km range and then you just dive and avade. You have unlimited amount of sub hydros.

Because your only option is to run away, you no longer have the option to brawl your way out when cornered or pressed... and that's not to mention that fighting another Sub became even more ridiculous and ineffective now, even less incentives to go Sub vs Sub... And honestly this isn't an issue for Gato or most T10 Subs since they are quite fast, but mid tier Subs are very easy to corner and this change made them roadkill. And don't get me started on the Stupid InvisiHydro that should have never existed in such way... it's just stupid gameplay design.

Subs should be fighting close range because that's when they become vulnerable to DDs and DC attacks, not pushing them into being silly snipers with homing torp spamming. 

[Itwastuesday]

19 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

fighting another Sub became even more ridiculous and ineffective now, even less incentives to go Sub vs Sub

Oh yeah, one of my last Trasher games had this excellent sub-on-sub fight with a pile of torpedoes on both for no damage and then a ram. Win for me because he was holding greens back while I had already done everything that reasonably can be done.

[ArIskandir]

19 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Oh yeah, one of my last Trasher games had this excellent sub-on-sub fight with a pile of torpedoes on both for no damage and then a ram. Win for me because he was holding greens back while I had already done everything that reasonably can be done.

If you are somewhat new to Subs, you probably didn't experience the fun times of Sub vs Sub, it was the most interesting thing to do in Subs (at least for me)... everyone at that time knew ramming flag was mandatory unless you wanted to die like a noob... 🤣

 

[OldSchoolGaming_Youtube]

1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

Because your only option is to run away, you no longer have the option to brawl your way out when cornered or pressed... and that's not to mention that fighting another Sub became even more ridiculous and ineffective now, even less incentives to go Sub vs Sub... And honestly this isn't an issue for Gato or most T10 Subs since they are quite fast, but mid tier Subs are very easy to corner and this change made them roadkill. And don't get me started on the Stupid InvisiHydro that should have never existed in such way... it's just stupid gameplay design.

Subs should be fighting close range because that's when they become vulnerable to DDs and DC attacks, not pushing them into being silly snipers with homing torp spamming. 

But if subs should be able to fight close range as well as long range, AND 3 km is also pretty close range in this game! ! But what? Do we need to fight at 1 km range to be efficient? Where would the drawback be then? If this happened we would be back at the really tarded shotgun mechanic where any 30%WR sub guy could just smash a 60% WR DD guy in the face with a fool safe fight? There was no skill whatsoever to blast a chasing DD in the face at 1-2 km. This means DDs are even more useless Vs subs than they already are.

And only option is not to just run away. With unlimited hydro that spots a DD or anything else in 2-3-4 km advance, you can just dive! How will he find you? How will he even be aware of you were just there? Hes RPF doesn't work, Any radars or planes doesn't work, IF hes a DD equipped with a hydro than he has to stumble upon your position within 2 km to spot you.

I had many DDs try and "Hunt" me in a sub, even DD Divs, I just dive and change direction, then thye have to try and find a needle in a haystack. And meanwhile I just sail around in the deep and I just use hydro to see where they are before I surface.