Ops extended to Tier 10 & superships, etc: Dev Blog 13.8

[Tricericon]

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/551

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Tricericon said:

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/551

Welcome news.  🙂 
 

[Sidelock]

Quote

Starting with Update 13.8, you can use Tiers VI-X ships as well as Superships in six Operations

Quite happy over this, finally some of those tier 9 and 10 gathering dust will be sailed once again. This would have been perfect if the tiers went from Tiers 5 to 10 and Superships instead of Six and Above. Oklahoma, Cesare, Iron Duke, Kamikaze and many more good tier 5 ships deserve some love. Hell i would absolutely love to play ops with Tier 3 ships.

[Ronchabale]

Played a couple of ops on PTS

Mecklenburg on Aegis game lasted 11.24 minutes, never seen the liberty ships head for the exit that early

Napoli on Cherry Blossom, battle lasted 11.00 minutes 

Both games were almost blowouts, think they need to have a bit more tanky bot cruisers than Zao and Ibuki

 

 

[Ronchabale]

2 minutes ago, Ronchabale said:

Played a couple of ops on PTS

Mecklenburg on Aegis game lasted 11.24 minutes, never seen the liberty ships head for the exit that early

Napoli on Cherry Blossom, battle lasted 11.00 minutes 

Both games were roflstomps, think they need to have a bit more tanky bot cruisers than Zao and Ibuki

 

 

 

[Asym]

On 7/31/2024 at 8:17 PM, Wolfswetpaws said:

Welcome news.  🙂 
 

We talked about this level change in depth over the past several nights and we aren't looking forward to what's to come....  There is only "so much combat mass" that small maps and close combat engagements can work with....    And, this expansion will "massively condense" the effects of such close quarters combat.  IOW's, shorter matches with less earnings.   In fact, we seem to all agree that Operations will simply be a waste of time....  One more straw.  With no ASB's to play, we might simply withdraw from the game....   Now, if our host equipped the BOTs with "*" and tier 10 ships only and we couldn't use "*" level ships, this might work.  But, they aren't and since there will most likely not be ship restrictions, there will be a "exploit" division capability - not might be.  

I can't see Ops being any fun.......the laws of complexity go along the line of "if the technical levels grow faster than the culture or environment can assimilate, the only solution is to expand the distances of the combatants significantly..."   Otherwise:  9 minute matches with only a few benefiting.  

Take an example:  Ultimate Frontier and the Mainz early exploit.  That usually is a 12 to 14 ship kill exploit (1600 + BXP).   Take a "*" OP cruiser into Ultimate and you would earn almost 70% of all game value in that OP........    Oh my, too much, too close = bad WuJu BuJu.....  There is no Upside to this......the maps are too small to absorb the complexity and that, is a very, very no good, very horrible day coming on....

[Admiral_Karasu]

14 minutes ago, Asym said:

We talked about this level change in depth over the past several nights and we aren't looking forward to what's to come....  There is only "so much combat mass" that small maps and close combat engagements can work with....    And, this expansion will "massively condense" the effects of such close quarters combat.  IOW's, shorter matches with less earnings.   In fact, we seem to all agree that Operations will simply be a waste of time....  One more straw.  With no ASB's to play, we might simply withdraw from the game....   Now, if our host equipped the BOTs with "*" and tier 10 ships only and we couldn't use "*" level ships, this might work.  But, they aren't and since there will most likely not be ship restrictions, there will be a "exploit" division capability - not might be.  

I can't see Ops being any fun.......the laws of complexity go along the line of "if the technical levels grow faster than the culture or environment can assimilate, the only solution is to expand the distances of the combatants significantly..."   Otherwise:  9 minute matches with only a few benefiting.  

Take an example:  Ultimate Frontier and the Mainz early exploit.  That usually is a 12 to 14 ship kill exploit (1600 + BXP).   Take a "*" OP cruiser into Ultimate and you would earn almost 70% of all game value in that OP........    Oh my, too much, too close = bad WuJu BuJu.....  There is no Upside to this......the maps are too small to absorb the complexity and that, is a very, very no good, very horrible day coming on....

Well, that's one angle. I'm just looking at this as an opportunity to have something to do with my high tiers.

[pepe_trueno]

can't play the test now but i can imagine how thing goes.

T10 ships are simply too powerful damage wise so it's not a surprise they can overpower operations bots.WG should consider giving bots better IA as well as putting ships that are more resistant to  overmatch and 32mm HE pen.

 

anyone remember asymmetrical bots before the change? those were a good challenge,  or give bots things like faster damage saturation or reduced damage taken from citadel hits. 

[Admiral_Karasu]

5 minutes ago, pepe_trueno said:

can't play the test now but i can imagine how thing goes.

T10 ships are simply too powerful damage wise so it's not a surprise they can overpower operations bots.WG should consider giving bots better IA as well as putting ships that are more resistant to  overmatch and 32mm HE pen.

 

anyone remember asymmetrical bots before the change? those were a good challenge,  or give bots things like faster damage saturation or reduced damage taken from citadel hits. 

Well, this is now on PTS, WG can make adjustments still, so maybe they will do what are suggesting. That would probably serve to make the operations more challenging. On some maps, though, I'd be more worried about lack of space.

[Ronchabale]

Played Schröder on Raptor rescue, another Roflstomp..

Bots die so fast you are sitting around waiting for something to happen half the time, bots need higher AI "intelligence" or at least more tanky ships

[Wolfswetpaws]

28 minutes ago, Asym said:

We talked about this level change in depth over the past several nights and we aren't looking forward to what's to come....  There is only "so much combat mass" that small maps and close combat engagements can work with....    And, this expansion will "massively condense" the effects of such close quarters combat.  IOW's, shorter matches with less earnings.   In fact, we seem to all agree that Operations will simply be a waste of time....  One more straw.  With no ASB's to play, we might simply withdraw from the game....   Now, if our host equipped the BOTs with "*" and tier 10 ships only and we couldn't use "*" level ships, this might work.  But, they aren't and since there will most likely not be ship restrictions, there will be a "exploit" division capability - not might be.  

I can't see Ops being any fun.......the laws of complexity go along the line of "if the technical levels grow faster than the culture or environment can assimilate, the only solution is to expand the distances of the combatants significantly..."   Otherwise:  9 minute matches with only a few benefiting.  

Take an example:  Ultimate Frontier and the Mainz early exploit.  That usually is a 12 to 14 ship kill exploit (1600 + BXP).   Take a "*" OP cruiser into Ultimate and you would earn almost 70% of all game value in that OP........    Oh my, too much, too close = bad WuJu BuJu.....  There is no Upside to this......the maps are too small to absorb the complexity and that, is a very, very no good, very horrible day coming on....

I was playing Scenario Opersations on the Public Test Server, the other day.  My efforts included sailing a few of my Tier-9 ships.

Based upon my handful of games, I figure that the Scenarios' red-team ships will be adjusted and the programming (pathing and timing and 'bot damage output) will be evaluated by WG/WOWs for "balanz".
I imagine the Scenarios will provide Tier-9/10/* ships a level of challenge comparable to what they provide now for Tier-6 through Tier-8 ships, eventually.

Have you played any Scenario Operations on the PTS, yet?
 

[Asym]

12 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I was playing Scenario Opersations on the Public Test Server, the other day.  My efforts included sailing a few of my Tier-9 ships.

Based upon my handful of games, I figure that the Scenarios' red-team ships will be adjusted and the programming (pathing and timing and 'bot damage output) will be evaluated by WG/WOWs for "balanz".
I imagine the Scenarios will provide Tier-9/10/* ships a level of challenge comparable to what they provide now for Tier-6 through Tier-8 ships, eventually.

Have you played any Scenario Operations on the PTS, yet?
 

No, I really don't want another WG link.  And, I am not the kind of person they'd ever listen to or receive feedback they'd listen to...

Please, remember;  that the PTS isn't really for an in-depth evaluation of it's technical or play capabilities....  It's to correlate the business expectations to forecasts....

But, it's not that it won't work.........it's that it won't be "value added" to play anymore.  The "exploits" will be too tempting now...  And, if it implodes and many of us leave till ASB's or the old format Ops come back - more the better for them !  We can take a hint !  And, it's about time anyway.

Good luck and we'll try it at least.

[HamptonRoads]

Feedback is the most important part of play testing.  Make sure that you respond to the feedback survey and voice your concerns.

[pepe_trueno]

or just scrap this whole idea of trying to fit t10 in current ops and instead reuse halloween ops with some changes.

Would love to play key battles with buffs but using my ships/modules and captain. Instead of players fighting each other we get to fight buffed otherworldly horrors including lobstered eye, rasputin's and those speed demon DDs that vomit torpedos... 😁

Edited August 18, 2024 by pepe_trueno

[Wolfswetpaws]

41 minutes ago, pepe_trueno said:

Instead of players fighting each other we get to fight buffed otherworldly horrors

👍

[Asym]

18 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Well, this is now on PTS, WG can make adjustments still, so maybe they will do what are suggesting. That would probably serve to make the operations more challenging. On some maps, though, I'd be more worried about lack of space.

On all maps, there won't be space.  We play ops most nights as a division and have been doing so for a long time now.  We discuss and have discussed what "concentrated combat power" in very close distances would imply....  There are some ships that routinely get banned from team play, yes !?  The Napoli comes to mind. 

You can can't place that much combat "mass" in a small space !!!!  It's a MAD situation that will shorten game play so much, what's the point....>?  That's not too much of a guess either;  because,  our host has "routinely" exempted ships that are too OP from team modes......  Because, they "can manipulate" outcomes too easily (the one ship or player to rule them all concept...)  PVE is no different that PVP in this case....it's worse when the bots are not programmed to be aggressive....

Another point:  They fielded and immediately and massively nerf'd Asymmetrical Battles because they "threatened Randoms".  Do any of you seriously believe that those same people, will allow Operations to be "better than they are now?"    Their goal, IMO, is to eliminate/reduce the threat of PVE and remove it, at some point,  to save costs....  At least to the point it can not interfere with anything PVP...   BTW, some mature games I have played are just the opposite !  PVE is now the main mode, population wise and,  PVP is still there in those games  -  abandoned  because it imploded...!

I suspect (guessing no less) our host doesn't have the Capital (which btw is more than a monetary word in this case) to produce new and first world content for "two" customer segments.  So, they tested ASB's and saw that it really "drew PVP players away from Randoms" and,  they killed it....  Till they figure out how to make ASB's PVP......which, would be easy to do and an awful lot of fun !  But, that would take innovation to make work and they simply can only copy and paste clone materials it seems.....

Operations also draw a lot of players away from all things PVP.  Heck, our clan can no longer field Clan Battle teams !   Operations days are numbered now IMO with the Scenario changes...and, I believe, that's the mission....

I hope I am wrong.

Edited August 19, 2024 by Asym

[Admiral_Karasu]

12 minutes ago, Asym said:

On all maps, there won't be space.  We play ops most nights as a division and have been doing so for a long time now.  We discuss and have discussed what "concentrated combat power" in very close distances would imply....  There are some ships that routinely get banned from team play, yes !?  The Napoli comes to mind. 

You can can't place that much combat "mass" in a small space !!!!  It's a MAD situation that will shorten game play so much, what's the point....>?  That's not too much of a guess either;  because,  our host has "routinely" exempted ships that are too OP from team modes......  Because, they "can manipulate" outcomes too easily (the one ship or player to rule them all concept...)  PVE is no different that PVP in this case....it's worse when the bots are not programmed to be aggressive....

Another point:  They fielded and immediately and massively nerf'd Asymmetrical Battles because they "threatened Randoms".  Do any of you seriously believe that those same people, will allow Operations to be "better than they are now?"    Their goal, IMO, is to eliminate/reduce the threat of PVE and remove it, at some point,  to save costs....  At least to the point it can not interfere with anything PVP...   BTW, some mature games I have played are just the opposite !  PVE is now the main mode, population wise and,  PVP is still there in those games  -  abandoned  because it imploded...!

I suspect (guessing no less) our host doesn't have the Capital (which btw is more than a monetary word in this case) to produce new and first world content for "two" customer segments.  So, they tested ASB's and saw that it really "drew PVP players away from Randoms" and,  they killed it....  Till they figure out how to make ASB's PVP......which, would be easy to do and an awful lot of fun !  But, that would take innovation to make work and they simply can only copy and paste clone materials it seems.....

Operations also draw a lot of players away from all things PVP.  Heck, our clan can no longer field Clan Battle teams !   Operations days are numbered now IMO with the Scenario changes...and, I believe, that's the mission....

I hope I am wrong.

Well.. there's still the off chance that WG are realizing what they have isn't working. Or, at least someone at WG is realizing it. The lower tiers seem to be emptying up which I take to mean that there's no new crops of players grinding up the tech trees any more. That leaves the flocks of seal clubbers sucking sour grapes, too, as practically no one is playing the lower tiers because a) they don't qualify for missions; and b) the queue times are going crazily up for everyone.

Now, you wouldn't expect that to have an impact on the higher tiers but I think it will. The wear and tear will start to make older players drop out if the randoms, even the high tier randoms can generate enough of that 'fun and engaging' stuff to go around. For WoWS to remain a viable choice in the gaming market, it has to able to engage as broad a spectrum of people as possible. Not just hopeless newbies, skilled veterans... hopeless veterans... or unicum level players.

Should WG still emphasize the PvP side of the game? Probably, because arcade war games seem to be built around PvP action. They can't depart too far from the fact that the randoms (as the non-competetive PvP mode), ranked and other PvP modes are their bread and butter.

However, they pushed, I think, many of us who used to divide our time between PvP and Pve increasingly out of PvP, and maybe, just maybe, they think it's better to keep us around doing PvE rather than see us kiss goodbye completely.

 

[Asym]

1 hour ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

Well.. there's still the off chance that WG are realizing what they have isn't working. Or, at least someone at WG is realizing it. The lower tiers seem to be emptying up which I take to mean that there's no new crops of players grinding up the tech trees any more. That leaves the flocks of seal clubbers sucking sour grapes, too, as practically no one is playing the lower tiers because a) they don't qualify for missions; and b) the queue times are going crazily up for everyone.

Now, you wouldn't expect that to have an impact on the higher tiers but I think it will. The wear and tear will start to make older players drop out if the randoms, even the high tier randoms can generate enough of that 'fun and engaging' stuff to go around. For WoWS to remain a viable choice in the gaming market, it has to able to engage as broad a spectrum of people as possible. Not just hopeless newbies, skilled veterans... hopeless veterans... or unicum level players.

Should WG still emphasize the PvP side of the game? Probably, because arcade war games seem to be built around PvP action. They can't depart too far from the fact that the randoms (as the non-competetive PvP mode), ranked and other PvP modes are their bread and butter.

However, they pushed, I think, many of us who used to divide our time between PvP and Pve increasingly out of PvP, and maybe, just maybe, they think it's better to keep us around doing PvE rather than see us kiss goodbye completely.

Hope.....there is always hope.  Although, it's a tough thing to "cling to a suffering child....." powerless, to the inevitable...  The preponderance of History and its effects on the current is what baffles many and generates empathy.... or, fear of what may be.....

Some of us have spent the time watching and taking notes on the life cycles of videogames....  The most common negative effect is when a developer "over sells" their initial "value proposition" and then realizes, a year or two later, that they can't "afford or create" what they promised....   And, here we are:  the era of Clones and the Exodus period most mature games struggle with (of those I have observed...)  

And, we are now stalled and wondering when enough is enough....?? 

Edited August 19, 2024 by Asym

[Efros]

IF WG want to improve the quality of the player base they need to allow new players to play low tiers that count for missions and get rewards that actually reward good play. These rewards disappear when you have passed a particular number of games and your low tier boats will no longer contribute to missions. But then they ain't interested in improving anything other than the number of doubloons you buy or the price of a POS premium that is currently on "sale".

[Wolfswetpaws]

13 minutes ago, Efros said:

IF WG want to improve the quality of the player base they need to allow new players to play low tiers that count for missions and get rewards that actually reward good play. These rewards disappear when you have passed a particular number of games and your low tier boats will no longer contribute to missions. But then they ain't interested in improving anything other than the number of doubloons you buy or the price of a POS premium that is currently on "sale".

The "devil is in the details", eh?
What exactly is your proposed solution?

Edited to add:  Personally, I don't mind players being able to sail the ship they purchase in the match-making brackets for the tier of ship in question.
We all start with a handful of Tier-1 ships, and go from there.
Some players start new accounts or "re-roll" and might not want to be bothered with a tedious "gate-keeping" system designed to prevent access to some tiers of game-play.
If I get a Yamato as a rental during a special event, am I to be prevented from sailing it?  My answer to that question is "No."

Edited August 19, 2024 by Wolfswetpaws

[Frostbow]

23 minutes ago, Efros said:

IF WG want to improve the quality of the player base they need to allow new players to play low tiers that count for missions and get rewards that actually reward good play. These rewards disappear when you have passed a particular number of games and your low tier boats will no longer contribute to missions. But then they ain't interested in improving anything other than the number of doubloons you buy or the price of a POS premium that is currently on "sale".

Improve quality of playerbase < Improve profits. Always.

All of this is a business. Not a tutorial or handholding service. We can discuss and scrutinize this in excruciatingly comprehensive detail, but at the end of the day, what provides positive cash flow will be the guiding light of Wargaming on where to focus their resources on.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

5 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

What exactly is your proposed solution?

I don't think he really knows, save that I suspect it involves his team and his alone being full of competent, experienced players. 

[Wolfswetpaws]

6 hours ago, Frostbow said:

Improve quality of playerbase < Improve profits. Always.

All of this is a business. Not a tutorial or handholding service. We can discuss and scrutinize this in excruciatingly comprehensive detail, but at the end of the day, what provides positive cash flow will be the guiding light of Wargaming on where to focus their resources on.

Indeed.  🙂 
The only qualification or hurdle to become a player is being able to navigate the webpages to sign the TOS/EULA agreements and install the game.  🙂 
There are no subsequent proficiency tests or competency exams which serve as a gate-keepers to allow or prevent a player from playing.
The tech-trees can be unlocked via gameplay (and poor performance in-game is okay as long as TOS/EULA rules are not violated).
And the premium content can be purchased with money.
Have ship, will travel, eh?  🙂

Edited August 19, 2024 by Wolfswetpaws

[xamdam]

Well, round 2 and they've cranked the bots up to 11. lol

30K+ damage IJN torps (bots), and it feels like they've really cranked up the AP pen and HE damage as well (again, bots)... peeps melting everywhere. Nothing like the feeding frenzy in round 1. Now a battle for survival.

UF and Raptor were doable (as long as you don't get hit by torps...), Aegis... had a couple teams not even make it past the second wave (which isn't uncommon in regular Ops, I guess). 

Hopefully this won't be the final edit. Something slightly dialed back from this would seem about right.

[xamdam]

35 minutes ago, xamdam said:

Well, round 2 and they've cranked the bots up to 11. lol

30K+ damage IJN torps (bots), and it feels like they've really cranked up the AP pen and HE damage as well (again, bots)... peeps melting everywhere. Nothing like the feeding frenzy in round 1. Now a battle for survival.

UF and Raptor were doable (as long as you don't get hit by torps...), Aegis... had a couple teams not even make it past the second wave (which isn't uncommon in regular Ops, I guess). 

Hopefully this won't be the final edit. Something slightly dialed back from this would seem about right.

This is what I mean about the torps, took 2 in a Raptor match, one was on the tip of my bow, the other a glancing, almost dodged hit mid belt... 61K damage for the 2 of them in my Schlieffen. I only took 30K total in artillery hits but those 2 torps nuked me (not a detonation and I didn't hear any citadel sound). Watched a couple other BBs get the same treatment. That's 7K more than the maximum damage possible for a normal Yugumo Type93 mod 3 torp.