Why doesn't WG listen to its customers and makes Asym. Battles permanent?

[OT2_2]

Have watched a very interesting stream or whatever it is called on WG's discord channel about the topic. And our member @Aragathor came up with a striking statement, which is right on IMHO. What do you think or believe?

"The reason why WG is so vehemently against reducing player numbers in randoms is simple, greed. Keeping randoms frustrating and toxic, leads to people paying for "shortcuts" like premium ships or paid early access to tech tree ships, to skip mid-tiers that have been made bad on purpose. It's all a business strategy, as they decided that delivering a fun good quality product is too much work."

[OT2_2]

The still ongoing discussion originally focused on the (dramatically) falling players numbers in WoW. 

[Volron]

They will likely shelve the idea of letting 9, 10 and possibly Supers into Op's if they do.

"We are not working on letting Tiers 9, 10, Super (if it is on table) participate in Operations for x/y/z BS reason here."  Which would translate to: You have Asm mode now.  Now go away.

Personally I'd like to have both 9, 10 and supers for Ops, and have Asm mode when I just wanna blow stuff up without having to deal with objectives.

Edited July 27, 2024 by Volron

[Admiral_Karasu]

I'm wondering exactly what sort of an impact would limiting player numbers in randoms have.  We've very occasionally had these during the quieter hours, with something like 5 to 7 players per team, but it's so rare because I think we more often get bots to fill up the roster that I don't have a clear idea of what it's like. Possibly a little bit like the ranked battles but with players maybe having different priorities it might play out differently.

[Volron]

49 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

I'm wondering exactly what sort of an impact would limiting player numbers in randoms have.  We've very occasionally had these during the quieter hours, with something like 5 to 7 players per team, but it's so rare because I think we more often get bots to fill up the roster that I don't have a clear idea of what it's like. Possibly a little bit like the ranked battles but with players maybe having different priorities it might play out differently.

Negligible.  Folks who regularly play Random's will likely not even notice the modes.  The ones that do, it isn't like they are going to main the other modes all of a sudden.  If they did, that should be a very clear indication of the state of Randoms.

So I see no problems here.  Again, will it impact Randoms, yes.  To say otherwise would be asinine.  Will it be the "death knell" of WoWs, not by a long shot.  As I mentioned, the impact would be negligible.  I personally can count on one hand the number of players that were Random only now Co-Op/Operations only.  The same cannot be said the other way around.

[thornzero]

WG seems to enjoy making alternative modes of play 'from time to time'. It keeps things a little different and interesting for players who chose alternative modes or whom are interested in alternative modes on a case by case basis.

Also, there is supply and demand. The demand for Asymmetrics is very high so WG keeps the interest in check by limiting supply. No warning as to when the mode will come back keeps some players interested to find out [which maintains some interest in the game]. This is why I think they will not make it permanent. The value of the mode is not diminished with sporadic availability. This is more important than 'other permanent modes viability'. 

There is also a push/pull of the player-base on the company. By limiting availability, the company stays in a position of control.

 

 

[OT2_2]

One of the main issues with WG is that they have the monopoly on this kind of arcade game. It's quite an extreme niche and WG makes full use of this. Without serious competition they will continue and increase their unpleasant practises. Unfortunately, they are only listening to themselves and never to what players actually desire. That will show negative consequences not far from now. While other companies are offering better rewards to satisfy their player base and to attract new ones WG in contrary is increasing requirements and reducing rewards. That's what I would call punishment and completely undeserved. 

We are NOT complaining because we love complaining for its own sake! No, we are complaining because we do love the core of this game and don't want it to vanish. Despite the often poor treatment by WG. When we stop complaining the WoW - train has literally spoken gone for good ... 

[Aethervox]

Easy answer here .... because Wedgie doesn't care unless they can make more money (not sure why exactly, except that the owner of WG could/might have had a deprived childhood). 😁

[tm63au]

13 hours ago, OT2_2 said:

Have watched a very interesting stream or whatever it is called on WG's discord channel about the topic. And our member @Aragathor came up with a striking statement, which is right on IMHO. What do you think or believe?

"The reason why WG is so vehemently against reducing player numbers in randoms is simple, greed. Keeping randoms frustrating and toxic, leads to people paying for "shortcuts" like premium ships or paid early access to tech tree ships, to skip mid-tiers that have been made bad on purpose. It's all a business strategy, as they decided that delivering a fun good quality product is too much work."

Now hang on a minute so you expect  @Asym to be playing 24 / 7 just so you can have fun, fair go a bit I am aware he is a well respected member of the community and has some great input here on the forum but come on the bloke needs to have a life outside of the game.

 

Show some respect if he has played enough for the day let the guy rest I am certain you'll catch up with him " in Game " sometime in the week.

 

😄    

Edited July 27, 2024 by tm63au

[Tpaktop2_1 NA]

WG's newest WoWS Lead Developer has a response to the OP's opinion

However he wont tell us now. 😄😜

[Guest]

3 hours ago, tm63au said:

Now hang on a minute so you expect  @Asym to be playing 24 / 7 just so you can have fun, fair go a bit I am aware he is a well respected member of the community and has some great input here on the forum but come on the bloke needs to have a life outside of the game.

Show some respect if he has played enough for the day let guy rest I am certain you'll catch up with him " in Game " sometime in the week.

😄    

I have been Asym since the late 70's....!   Gosh, been a while with the same moniker...  And, I'd play ASB's full time with my clan mates and friends....

The reason they are not a regular battle mode:  too many Random players defected to them.....

They won't be back but maybe, twice a year at most.

[Arcus_Aesopi]

7 hours ago, OT2_2 said:

The still ongoing discussion originally focused on the (dramatically) falling players numbers in WoW. 

It's summer and I haven't seen any graphs that show a severe drop over the history of the game.  I would avoid the Covid years to make any kind of data determination.

While I'm definitely NOT a WG apologist, we all do have to keep some perspective on all the crisis talk.

WG doesn't share western "values" and isn't apologetic for it; therefore, a lot of my own discontent with some of their business practices centers on "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" incongruities.

[Arcus_Aesopi]

1 hour ago, Asym said:

I have been Asym since the late 70's....!   Gosh, been a while with the same moniker...  And, I'd play ASB's full time with my clan mates and friends....

The reason they are not a regular battle mode:  too many Random players defected to them.....

They won't be back but maybe, twice a year at most.

@AsymYeah, but just because YOU get a battle mode named for you doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't have one too!

Triremes and Bow & Arrows at dawn for the new Arcus (Bow in Latin) battle mode!  (Featuring Hybrid Pidgeon carriers with guided missile poo!  (always crits!))

I think you're right... I enjoy Asymmetric Battle mode!

[Zysyss]

There are many factors as to why the player population is falling. Game is getting older, not attracting new players, WG's bad decisions, game burnout, players finding other games, and my main reason for playing less is the player base itself. Most of the good players have either left or stopped playing randoms. High-tier randoms are a mess. 

 

[WES_HoundDog]

6 hours ago, Zysyss said:

There are many factors as to why the player population is falling. Game is getting older, not attracting new players, WG's bad decisions, game burnout, players finding other games, and my main reason for playing less is the player base itself. Most of the good players have either left or stopped playing randoms. High-tier randoms are a mess. 

 

making the game fun and balanced and devoid of cancer helps.

[USMC2145]

8 hours ago, Zysyss said:

There are many factors as to why the player population is falling. Game is getting older, not attracting new players, WG's bad decisions, game burnout, players finding other games, and my main reason for playing less is the player base itself. Most of the good players have either left or stopped playing randoms. High-tier randoms are a mess. 

 

This is both WG's and the players fault. Both have a hand in this. 

[Ensign Cthulhu]

On 7/27/2024 at 7:52 AM, OT2_2 said:

leads to people paying for "shortcuts" like premium ships

There are so many premium ships available for free these days, including ones that used to be exclusively for money, that the only reason to own some premiums is the historical interest. 

Asymmetric is a rare beast because it offers the potential for Random Battles gains for Co-op risks (if you can avoid derp teams that die because they underestimate the numbers disparity). There's no way on Earth they want to offer that as a 24/7/365 thing.

On 7/27/2024 at 7:52 AM, OT2_2 said:

paid early access to tech tree ships, to skip mid-tiers that have been made bad on purpose

Only available for a very short window of opportunity, and if you miss it you are stuck grinding the line - or using FXP if you really want to be impatient.

There's a dichotomy here, between people who ask themselves "How can I avoid this suck thing?" and those who ask "How do I play this thing to its strengths so it sucks less?" I find that it helps to play the less enjoyable ships for a few thousand ship XP a day in co-op. Progress is slower, but inexorable and generally untainted by defeat. Nearing the end, blue boosters are used in Randoms for the last few tens of thousands of XP at higher tiers. Grind programmes are plotted out months in advance and interspersed with play in premium ships and tech-tree ships whose successors are already in port/lines complete, in order to boost credit stocks for the inevitable purchase.

[OT2_2]

29 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

There are so many premium ships available for free these days, including ones that used to be exclusively for money, that the only reason to own some premiums is the historical interest. 

Asymmetric is a rare beast because it offers the potential for Random Battles gains for Co-op risks (if you can avoid derp teams that die because they underestimate the numbers disparity). There's no way on Earth they want to offer that as a 24/7/365 thing.

Only available for a very short window of opportunity, and if you miss it you are stuck grinding the line - or using FXP if you really want to be impatient.

There's a dichotomy here, between people who ask themselves "How can I avoid this suck thing?" and those who ask "How do I play this thing to its strengths so it sucks less?" I find that it helps to play the less enjoyable ships for a few thousand ship XP a day in co-op. Progress is slower, but inexorable and generally untainted by defeat. Nearing the end, blue boosters are used in Randoms for the last few tens of thousands of XP at higher tiers. Grind programmes are plotted out months in advance and interspersed with play in premium ships and tech-tree ships whose successors are already in port/lines complete, in order to boost credit stocks for the inevitable purchase.

It wasn't me whom you quoted but @Aragathor, whom I quoted. Therefore quotation marks. Anyhow, I completely agree with his opinion.

[OT2_2]

44 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Asymmetric is a rare beast because it offers the potential for Random Battles gains for Co -op risks

It doesn't, rewards had been cut down massively, but it offers pure gameplay without the toxic and unpleasant environment randoms are suffering from. Lots of players, often really good ones, are trying to avoid randoms at any price. I think we can agree on that this is not desirable. Neither for the game nor WG. Game quality is declining constantly and I can't see that WG is trying to do anything against it. Having a monopoly is obviously blinding for reality. 

Edited July 28, 2024 by OT2_2

[Ensign Cthulhu]

8 minutes ago, OT2_2 said:

It wasn't me whom you quoted but @Aragathor, whom I quoted.

Duly noted. I was addressing the idea more than the person quoting the words. 

 

4 minutes ago, OT2_2 said:

but it offers pure gameplay without the toxic and unpleasant environment randoms are suffering from.

Oddly enough, most of the toxicity and unpleasantness I've noted in random battles chat seems to come from... people who complain about how toxic and unpleasant Randoms is! I'm not pointing a finger at you here, but some of the random battles I played yesterday added quite a few people to my blacklist. This is an easy thing to do, especially when repeat offenders rear their ugly heads.

Co-op offers pure gameplay too, just saying...

8 minutes ago, OT2_2 said:

Lots of players, often really good ones, are trying to avoid randoms at any price.

 

Counter-hypothesis: if they really were that good, they wouldn't be dodging Randoms. It should be a feeding frenzy for them; a smorgasbord of derp to chow down on. I see evidence of a lot more people who want to dodge and slide around CVs and submarines (blowing one's top in chat because one is facing subs or CVs in co-op is one of those things that makes me roll my eyes so hard they could be used to drive power generators), or who lose the game for their team because they go carrier-hunting instead of taking caps and helping to neutralize the enemy's destroyers.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Ensign Cthulhu said:

Counter-hypothesis: if they really were that good, they wouldn't be dodging Randoms. It should be a feeding frenzy for them; a smorgasbord of derp to chow down on.

Actually, if I were to guess:  the really good players aren't in the game to "Capitalize on destroying noobs..."  There's no sport in that !  And, as Randoms digress into even worse chaos, alternative modes of play become essential as the game implodes !  There has to be game modes challenging enough for them or they will leave !

[thornzero]

Randoms is challenging. Everyone had to start somewhere and while there are plenty of players under 1ooo matches they are still gaining experience. No one has consistent winning streaks - except for the unicums. Which are still losing matches - just less than everyone else. 

My guess is randoms will stay about the same. Neither getting worse or better. It is what it is.

[Pugilistic]

On 7/27/2024 at 6:32 AM, OT2_2 said:

The still ongoing discussion originally focused on the (dramatically) falling players numbers in WoW. 

 

20 hours ago, Arcus_Aesopi said:

It's summer and I haven't seen any graphs that show a severe drop over the history of the game.  I would avoid the Covid years to make any kind of data determination.

While I'm definitely NOT a WG apologist, we all do have to keep some perspective on all the crisis talk.

WG doesn't share western "values" and isn't apologetic for it; therefore, a lot of my own discontent with some of their business practices centers on "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" incongruities.

Just looking at the wotapi site (it was originally just looking at WoT API) there's a little over 10% loss this summer compared to last, which wasnt robust compared to past years. With respect to population, there are a lot of things not related to game development in a game of this age, but devs trying hard to kill the golden goose doesnt help. 

WG apparently sees Randoms as the essential kernel of the game, and are now in the quandary of having to limit or suppress some other popular modes, rationalizing that players will play Randos instead. 

We are not a long way from the numbers suggesting the need for a consolidation of NA and EU, should the current trend continue.

 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, thornzero said:

Randoms is challenging. Everyone had to start somewhere and while there are plenty of players under 1ooo matches they are still gaining experience. No one has consistent winning streaks - except for the unicums. Which are still losing matches - just less than everyone else. 

My guess is randoms will stay about the same. Neither getting worse or better. It is what it is.

Well, we are all allowed to chase whatever goals we like I guess....  Your experiences and my experiences are not the same.  Personally, I started in Randoms and finally, the writing on the wall,  came about match 4,000...........it wasn't a place to be anymore with the toxic environment and toxic, gimmick filled gameplay....   The "see through" radar was the straw that broke me.......as a DD main:  there was no point of playing another match anymore....  For me, there was only one way to not uninstall;  and,  here I am in PVE having some fun !

The problem with "it is what it is"  -   is a statement of accepting bad game mechanics as normal.....  And, for me, I'd rather uninstall than accept mediocre gameplay. 

So, for me and those close to me, it was play PVE with my friends or we'd all leave the game....  Here we are:  divisioning for several years now and still, looking for another game....  We're close to making WOWS a weekend divisioning game and playing a first world game the rest of the time !

If you are having fun that's a good thing !!!   

[thornzero]

3 minutes ago, Asym said:

The problem with "it is what it is"  -   is a statement of accepting bad game mechanics as normal.....  And, for me, I'd rather uninstall than accept mediocre gameplay. 

I think your take is more of a doomsday approach and I don't subscribe to it. For me, it is challenging trying to get good and I am getting better. No one likes losing but there is still a challenge for some of us. But with your thinking that the game is dying is the point I am not seeing, just yet anyway. I realise NA has lower numbers but EU has plenty of players and the guys with low random matches are either going to get better or quit. The guys with 2ok matches and low 4o% wr? Well, they are still going to be there in some form.

The toxicity is very random also. Many matches go by without commentary at all. Some of it you need a thicker skin. Some of it is uncalled for. But it is not all the time. I haven't really seen too much to be honest but in my defence, I've been playing better so I also am not attracting it.