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T4 Ijn Cruiser


Aethervox

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I have a Cpt with 19 pts (+1 reserve) so just 2 pts to go to 21. 

At present, I have GtG, SF, FtT, PT, HvHE, Sup, SE & CE = 19.  Is PT worth it? Is GtG worth it?

I'm thinking of revising this build to SF, FtT, SE, Sup, HvHE & CE = 16.  I prefer these 6 skills (as essential).

With the 5 left a combination of RL with CS or LS  ....OR Ce (Comsumable enhancement), CS, LS & GtG ..... OR Ce & DE plus a 1 pter (CS, GtG or LS).

My question is - what way to go here? Is PT really worth it? To know exactly how many are firing at you? Is GtG useful? Can it be dropped? Is LS that useful? & big question: is RL worth 4 pts? I suppose what I'm asking is what build here is the most stealthy? Which build do you think is the best bang for the buck at present times in WoWS?

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26 minutes ago, Aethervox said:

I have a Cpt with 19 pts (+1 reserve) so just 2 pts to go to 21. 

At present, I have GtG, SF, FtT, PT, HvHE, Sup, SE & CE = 19.  Is PT worth it? Is GtG worth it?

I'm thinking of revising this build to SF, FtT, SE, Sup, HvHE & CE = 16.  I prefer these 6 skills (as essential).

With the 5 left a combination of RL with CS or LS  ....OR Ce (Comsumable enhancement), CS, LS & GtG ..... OR Ce & DE plus a 1 pter (CS, GtG or LS).

My question is - what way to go here? Is PT really worth it? To know exactly how many are firing at you? Is GtG useful? Can it be dropped? Is LS that useful? & big question: is RL worth 4 pts? I suppose what I'm asking is what build here is the most stealthy? Which build do you think is the best bang for the buck at present times in WoWS?

My personal feeling is that Priority Target is never "worth it".  Good situational awareness, combined with beneficial map positioning, negates the need for it.
Other players disagree with me and are passionate about their advocacy for the Priority Target skill.
Some claim to be able to use it to determine if an opponent has launched torpedoes.  Perhaps.  And everyone who knows how, will also know how to repeatedly lock/unlock/lock their guns on a target to confuse the target's information-flow and decision-making process.
So, do you really want to spend your skill points on Priority Target? 
Or would you rather level-up your mental game and ability to predict & counter your opponents' actions?

Grease the Gears skill is something that I evaluate according to the speed of the turret rotation of the ship in question.
Quickly rotating turrets won't need it.  Turrets that can be out-turned by the ship may benefit from it.

Last stand is one of my "go to" skills.  I don't want any of my ships completely unable to move or steer.

Radio Location (a.k.a. Radio Direction Finding or "RDF), has its uses.  
It always points towards the nearest opposing ship that is on the surface of the water.  It does not point to submerged submarines.
It also always notifies the "located" ship/player that they are "Located".  
It's something of a niche-market skill, and can help someone keep their guns and other weapons pointed at the nearest opponent.
The 4 points cost seems appropriate, to me.
That being said, there are some ways in which the opposing team can use two or more ships to reverse-locate the player using RDF.  (It's a bit complicated, and involves triangulation and communication and cooperation by team-mates.  But, there are some youtube videos which explain how to use the "which ship is located" status to roughly determine the likely location of the ship using Radio Location.)
Also, if more than one player on a given team has RDF, then life becomes more interesting.

My typical Cruiser Skills are Last Stand, Fill the Tubes, Pack-a-Punch, and Concealment Expert.
That spends my first 10 skill points for Cruisers equipped with torpedoes.
After that, my choice of skills will be according to the ship in question and the intended purpose of my skill-build.

 

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5 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

My typical Cruiser Skills are Last Stand, Fill the Tubes, Pack-a-Punch, and Concealment Expert.
That spends my first 10 skill points for Cruisers equipped with torpedoes.
After that, my choice of skills will be according to the ship in question and the intended purpose of my skill-build.

Thanks, I've wondered & considered PaP, as well. Didn't mention it as I wondered if other skills might have been better.

You do say RL is worth the price (in most cases). To find the closest enemy quickly, I imagine, from stealth. Will that many enemy T4 ships try to 'triangulate' you?

LS will be one I pick. I guess GtG will have to go.

15 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

It also always notifies the "located" ship/player that they are "Located". 

Thanks for this. So many battles one is 'located' & I did not know why (even after all these years). So, being located actually spots you on the mini-map?

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4 hours ago, Aethervox said:

I have a Cpt with 19 pts (+1 reserve) so just 2 pts to go to 21. 

At present, I have GtG, SF, FtT, PT, HvHE, Sup, SE & CE = 19.  Is PT worth it? Is GtG worth it?

I'm thinking of revising this build to SF, FtT, SE, Sup, HvHE & CE = 16.  I prefer these 6 skills (as essential).

With the 5 left a combination of RL with CS or LS  ....OR Ce (Comsumable enhancement), CS, LS & GtG ..... OR Ce & DE plus a 1 pter (CS, GtG or LS).

My question is - what way to go here? Is PT really worth it? To know exactly how many are firing at you? Is GtG useful? Can it be dropped? Is LS that useful? & big question: is RL worth 4 pts? I suppose what I'm asking is what build here is the most stealthy? Which build do you think is the best bang for the buck at present times in WoWS?

This depends if you're wanting to use the captain later on down the line at higher tiers?

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8 hours ago, Aethervox said:

So, being located actually spots you on the mini-map?

No, being located only indicates your relative bearing for the opponent running RPF as you are the nearest enemy to the opponent.

 

Kuma has very poor splash damage tolerance for her engine and rudders (that any HE can potentially disable her rudder) so Last Stand should be picked.

As Japanese 140mm guns also benefit from the commander skill change (that they can have the Heavy HE skill without concealment penalty), as long as CE is specced all builds are the same regarding concealment.

9 hours ago, Aethervox said:

Is PT really worth it? To know exactly how many are firing at you?

With PT you can make some analysis on how "badly" spotted you are, that how many enemies are targeting you. If you are spotted yet no one is targeting you, then the situation is better than being both spotted and targeted.

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11 hours ago, Aethervox said:

Thanks, I've wondered & considered PaP, as well. Didn't mention it as I wondered if other skills might have been better.

You do say RL is worth the price (in most cases). To find the closest enemy quickly, I imagine, from stealth. Will that many enemy T4 ships try to 'triangulate' you?

LS will be one I pick. I guess GtG will have to go.

Thanks for this. So many battles one is 'located' & I did not know why (even after all these years). So, being located actually spots you on the mini-map?

There is probably an equivalent wiki in EU and ASIA.  But this is the NA wiki link (the pages are in english).
https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:List_of_Commander_Skills#Cruiser_Skills

Grease the Gears is a skill that provides benefit if the turrets of a ship rotate slowly. 
For the Atlanta, this skill doesn't make sense.
For other ships, Grease the Gears makes complete sense. 
But, with a 10 skill-point budget, I would make this a skill that I added after I had 11 skill points to work with.
If the Cruiser you are considering has slowly rotating turrets, then this skill can be useful, especially if you like to brawl in Co-op. 
If you play at medium to long ranges and don't need to rotate the turrets very often, then getting GtG won't be important.

Radio Location (RL) is especially useful if a Cruiser intends to hunt Destroyers and submarines (with the important caveat being that a submerged submarine won't be located -- but, Submarine dive-time is limited and staying on the surface to recharge their dive-time will expose them to Radio Location).  
I said Radio Location was worth the price, yes.
And, because it is an expensive (4 point) skill, there will be a purpose for a player choosing to get it.
Typically, Destroyer players use Radio Location.  But, Cruiser players also may choose it.  
(Side note, in the past, it was possible for a Battleship player to take this skill.  But that was changed years ago with one of the Captain's Skills reworks.)
As you have postulated, it is unlikely that a player would use a 21-point Captain on a Tier-4 ship.
But, some people, such as yourself, apparently have the Captains and the ships and are willing to splurge on such a project.  🙂 

As for your question "So, being located actually spots you on the mini-map?"
The answer is "No."
Radio Location skill provides a player (you for example) with an approximate compass bearing indicator which points to the nearest opponent ship.
It also provides an alert to that opponent ship, telling them they are "Located" (with the word Located being displayed on their screen).
Neither ship is put on the mini-map (because of radio-location). 
A ship would have to be detected by other means, for them to become visible on the mini-map.


Regarding the "reverse triangulation".
Normal triangulation would involve having a bearing to at least two known points.  https://www.advnture.com/how-to/triangulate
Example.  An adventurous person goes hiking.  They don't have a global-positioning-system device.  But, they do have a compass and a map.
They climb to a high place with a clear view of the terrain, to check their position.
To do so, they aim their compass at a known feature which is shown on the map (such as a named mountain-top or a Fire Observation Tower depicted on the map).
They write down the bearing indicated by their compass.
Then they repeat this process with another observable landmark.  
Next they draw lines on a map which correspond to the bearings' direction and start at the center of the observed landmarks.
Where those lines intersect is the hiker's position.

Here is a visual example.
triangulation-continued2-l.jpg&f=1&nofb= 
https://www.slideserve.com/sevita/land-navigation-for-ground-team-leaders

~Reverse triangulation in World of Warships is using known locations (of allied ships) to deduce the location of a ship which is using Radio Location.
Imagine three ships are spread-out in a roughly semi-circular set of positions on a map.
And imagine that a Radio Location using opposing ship is in open water but undetected and approximately equidistant from them.
Now, let's use the above image a bit differently.
Imagine "Landmark 1" is Green ship 1, and Landmar 2 is Green ship 2 and Landmark 3 is Green ship 3.  The red-ship is using radio location.
As each of the green ships moves around, each of them is "Located", and they communicate that to their team.
But, let's also say that they decide to use that information to their advantage.
They'll change their positions slightly, and each of them will take turns becoming the "located ship" and communicate when that happens.
Therefore, they'll "know" where they are, and can deduce where the red-ship is by using lines drawn with an upside-down "T".
Draw a line from Green 1 to Green 2.  Draw a line from Green 2 to Green 3.  And draw a line from Green 1 to Green 3.
Now find the mid-point along each line.
From that mid-point, draw a line which is perpendicular to first line.  Repeat for all three lines.
Where those perpendicular lines intersect should be the approximate location of the Radio Location using ship.
It's not "perfect", but is is close enough to narrow down a search and tell the green team's CV where to begin scouting for the red-team ship.  🙂 
  

28251.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=cf5cdbcfac1e71b 
https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/triangulation-sized/


How it works: Spotting System

 

Edited by Wolfswetpaws
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12 hours ago, Aethervox said:

My question is - what way to go here?

Building a ship for T4 is tricky because the matchmaking can be very unpredictable. Some matches are about murdering bots as efficiently as possible, which demands firepower investments and devalues stealth-/information-based gameplay. Other matches are against full-human teams of T5 ships, which tend to have such a dramatic firepower advantage (above all the addition of aiming systems) that being sneaky and smart is the way to go.  

Some thoughts on the captain skills and how they apply to Kuma: 

Grease the Gears: normally I wouldn't advocate this skill on a cruiser with sub-25s gun traverse, but Kuma has such a silly gun arrangement that it makes sense to take it. In particular the 2nd, 5th, and 6th guns have to turn close to 270° when flipping sides (see diagram) and GtG can save ~4s every time that happens, which is 2/3 of a gun cycle.

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.612d9d9dc128f44bf1024f97d354c51f.png

Swift Fish: The Kuma has such great torpedoes that buffing them is overkill. This skill increases the speed from 57kts to 59.8kts, which in practice is on the border of imperceptible. The dominant factor in the torpedoes being so good is their excellent 1.2km detect; adding SF shaves 0.4s off the target's reaction time.

Consumables Specialist: Only if taken with Superintendent in order to maximize the fighter. Against T4 carriers, having fighter that is up every 73s (with signal) can be the difference between life and death in the late game. The faster hydro uptime is imho negligable.

Gun Feeder: If the Kuma had longer reload and better AP, then absolutely. As stands, probably no.

Incoming Fire Alert: Mostly a higher tier skill where long range accurate BB fire is a meaningful danger.

Last Stand: Absolute must given that both engine and rudder are very susceptible to HE damage.

---

Demo Expert: Kuma already has above average fires/minute, a 10% increase in fire chance for 2 points is a imho a good investment.

Fill the Tubes: Same with Swift Fish, this lowers the torp reload from 42s -> 37.8s. The difference will be hardly noticeable.  

Consumables Enhancements: Only for ships with two or more strong versions of the following [Engine Boost, Hydro, Radar, Smoke]

Eye in the Sky: Not applicable; no spotter plane.

Priority Target: Valuable in terms of information gathering; there is a big difference between being spotted and being targeted. Allows the player to take educated gambles in terms of positioning, turning, crossing gaps etc.

Focus Fire Training: Very underrated skill as it buffs the strongest AA tool in the game (Priority Sector). Unfortunately, Kuma's woeful 2.5km AA bubble is so weak that this only becomes valuable if the matchmaker is consistently full of carriers.

---

Heavy HE: Kuma has the best HE alpha among T4 cruisers and can use the skill without penalty. Hard yes.

Pack a Punch: Buffs the torpedo alpha from 10.8k -> 12.4k. Remember that on BBs the damage will get further mitigated by torpedo protection, which can get into the 20-30% range for her matchmaking spread. However, if the Kuma faces mostly bots and can guarantee that the majority of her fish will land, then the extra 6.4k damage per side starts to become attractive.

Adrenalin Rush: Especially valuable for ships that have both main battery and torps, as well as for fragile ships with lofty shell arcs. Being low health and having a ~18% reload buff can be game deciding if the player knows how to exploit cover.

Heavy AP: Only applicable for 190mm+ guns

Superintendent: A bit of a niche skill for the Kuma, since it is hard to envision a scenario requiring 4 hydros. As mentioned above, 4 fighters can be useful, but it is a high price to pay.

Survivability Expert: Absolute must on higher tier cruisers. For Kuma, the 1800hp don't seem like much. However, it is the equivalent of 1 full fire (running -20% duration signal), or about a dozen HE shells from low tier destroyers. For a min/max build I would still take it, because sometimes just surviving by a thread will win you the game.

----

Top Grade Gunner: For a full bot-farming build, take it. Otherwise the 4pts are very expensive for only 8% reload* (terms and conditions apply).  

Outnumbered: Another terms and conditions skill, but given the Kuma's good stealth I can see scenarios where the almost 40kts (with signal) can be used to maneuver around the easily-spotted BBs at the tier. Also improves the accuracy when trying to nail DDs in late game situations. Sleeper pick, could turn out to be a winner.

Radio Location: Must have for winrate-oriented builds. In late game situations there is no substitute for having the game tell you the bearing of that invisible destroyer that is trying to out-maneuver you. 

IFHE: Kuma's 23mm of HE penetration is plenty for her tier -- most BB extremities will be 16m m or 19mm. Not needed.

Concealment: Must have for winrate-oriented builds, optional for a bot-farming build.

AA-defense and ASW expert: Kuma doesn't have AA worth buffing and there are no subs in her MM spread.

----

Three ways I would build the Kuma:

Max Win Rate 

Assumes that Kuma can deal with T4s with the firepower she has and invests all points in maximizing survivability/game impact in T5 matches.

Spoiler

image.png.19d53cdc84706bb008c22d5bdffbabb0.png

Max Bot Farming

Assumes that the majority of matches will be against bots, and T5 human matches will have to be solved using firepower.

Spoiler

image.png.2417dd20cbc36f5fd8063b114141c87f.png

Hybrid WR/damage

Takes the most critical stealth/survival skills but mixes in some extra gun power. What I would actually run if I had to a 21pt. Kuma captain.

Spoiler

image.png.e9a839bbedb6a6e466231b5c36a0926f.png

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Hope that helps, happy hunting o7

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10 minutes ago, torino2dc said:

Hope that helps, happy hunting o7

Useful for the sake of making comparisions.
Not quite the builds I'd choose, but they make good food for thought in the discussion.  🙂 

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21 hours ago, Aethervox said:

My question is - what way to go here? Is PT really worth it? To know exactly how many are firing at you? Is GtG useful? Can it be dropped? Is LS that useful? & big question: is RL worth 4 pts?

PT- yes, invaluable for maximizing your damage output and preserving your HP (if you can apply the info provide into your gameplay) 

GtG - yes it is useful in this case, also useful for IJN CAs later on. 

LS - yes, might be the difference between being literaly dead on the water or limping away and keep fighting

RL - yes if You intend to hunt DDs, which You should.

 

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Thank-you all. My query was not for the Kuma. It is for the Iwaki Alpha. You'd think I should know the optimal build for it but I don't (or haven't examined this properly).

I can only go from my experiences playing it & advice. Over time, Cpt skills have changed & I have probably had about 3 different builds for this ship (never w 21 pts).

 Now, I'm at 20 pts, so, a 1 pt skill is all I will need to add (GtG will be the last skill).

From my play style & my experiences, I have decided on the following Cpt skill build;

LS, Ce, SE, CE, AR, HvHE, Sup & CS (& GtG) = 21.

Although some suggest PT, I find this skill redundant. If you are in combat, you are shown & you know some will be targeting you anyway. Some suggest RL but my experience is one can find an enemy quickly enough (usually) without it. This is 6 pts for these two skills which I think could be used for smoke & hydro bonuses (Super, Ce & CS). Besides it's concealment, the Iwaki Alpha does require smoke (for escape purposes)

I'm also going for the four now recommended equipment slots (not to worry, I use the most important one of them all 😁). 

On 7/21/2024 at 10:37 PM, BOBTHEBALL said:

This depends if you're wanting to use the captain later on down the line at higher tiers?

This Cpt is dedicated here 😁

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6 hours ago, Aethervox said:

Thank-you all. My query was not for the Kuma. It is for the Iwaki Alpha. You'd think I should know the optimal build for it but I don't (or haven't examined this properly).

I can only go from my experiences playing it & advice. Over time, Cpt skills have changed & I have probably had about 3 different builds for this ship (never w 21 pts).

 Now, I'm at 20 pts, so, a 1 pt skill is all I will need to add (GtG will be the last skill).

From my play style & my experiences, I have decided on the following Cpt skill build;

LS, Ce, SE, CE, AR, HvHE, Sup & CS (& GtG) = 21.

Although some suggest PT, I find this skill redundant. If you are in combat, you are shown & you know some will be targeting you anyway. Some suggest RL but my experience is one can find an enemy quickly enough (usually) without it. This is 6 pts for these two skills which I think could be used for smoke & hydro bonuses (Super, Ce & CS). Besides it's concealment, the Iwaki Alpha does require smoke (for escape purposes)

I'm also going for the four now recommended equipment slots (not to worry, I use the most important one of them all 😁). 

This Cpt is dedicated here 😁

image.png.9c084c1fd6f32c3eb2e46744673a203f.png

I would do something like this, with the last 4p going into whatever you feels is best. RPF maybe to stay away from stealthier ships. TGG to make use of smoking up close to the enemy. Even outnumbered to play on the weaker flank. It really depends what you feel is needed.

 

I built torpedoes because just looking at them, for tier 4 they're extremely strong. 

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2 hours ago, BOBTHEBALL said:

depends what you feel is needed.

🙂

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Some reference material.  

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Iwaki_Alpha

The @LittleWhiteMouse ship review of the Iwaki Alpha is referenced in the wiki page.  But it doesn't seem to have found its way to DevStrike, yet?
I did find it on webarchive.org, though.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230728153710/https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/131007-premium-ship-review-iwaki-alpha/

https://web.archive.org/web/20230729124512/https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/41699-kuma-vs-iwaki-alpha/

Edited by Wolfswetpaws
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