important topic Is there enough up-to-date information for new players today?

[Verblonde]

6 hours ago, MBT808 said:

Short answer, you have a mountain of homework to play this game or understand everything that's going on.

(Emphasis added)

My feeling FWIW is that a new player simply can't understand *everything* that's going on (I'm an old git who's been playing for multiple years, and I still don't - not even close, although that may partially explain my WR); however, there is a much smaller sub-set of 'everything' that can drastically improve one's chances.

For example, you don't really need to learn a huge amount to get the basic differences between HE and AP, or why giving the enemy broadside is generally not the best idea.

To play as well as the better players on here (so, not me!) does require a huge amount of knowledge, and - at least as important - the ability to marshall that knowledge efficiently; however to take a blithering idiot and turn them into a tolerable player requires much less.

Perhaps, if the aim is to provide a resource from which to learn the game, there might be some merit in having a few sub-sections based on where one is in the game? Perhaps along the lines of:

• The secret is to bang the rocks together, guys! Being the *really* basic stuff. The sort of thing that most on here can't believe that anyone doesn't know.
• Intermediate. If the last section tells you what AP and HE are, this section gets into the more subtle stuff e.g. ricochet angles, fire chance. Most on here would view things in such a section as laughably obvious, but - probably - more than half of the players aren't aware.
• Advanced. Perhaps a misnomer for those on here, but for an average player this stuff can appear to be witchcraft. A glib summary might be: the last time you were accused of cheating? There's a good chance that whatever you were doing should be in here (unless you deleted a cruiser with AP to the citadel, in which case it's probably 'intermediate').

If new players could only be persuaded to read and understand the 'bang the rocks together, guys', section, the standard of play would possibly improve drastically. I may be being delusionally optimistic/naive of course...

Edited February 26 by Verblonde

[UnderTheRadarAgain]

You have to play a lot of games first before you can access the training room. Wargaming have got it all backward. I just logged in to look at the access levels a novice player needs to advance through to unlock all of the features but once you have it all unlocked the details no longer show - so I can't see how many games are needed to unlock any of the levels. I do recall needing 3 co-op games to unlock random battles - which were unlocked a few games before access to upgrade modules or commanders. The training room is one of the last things unlocked.

I recommend a new player do a combination of random battles and co-op in T1 and T2 ships, don't climb the tech tree until after playing at least a dozen T2 cruiser games in randoms. They need to play their T3 cruiser also before they can access the T3 BB. I recommend that also be done in random battles. Remember the first 200 games are in protected match making vs other novice players and new accounts.

I would recommend a new player try the USA cruiser line first, it is the easiest for a new player to play, the St Louis is a solid little boat and what you learn in her will help when graduating into the T3 BB South Carolina.

 

[UnderTheRadarAgain]

My suggestion if you want to put together a tutorial series for new players - 

Start a new alt account. Record everything. Take specific note of the account access levels and incorporate that into your tutorial videos. Explaining everything as simply as possible. 
Covering the basics right from the start. How to aim, how to kite, how to dodge. T1 is easy. Aiming, kiting is the key skills. T2 you can add in dodging - because T2 DD's turn up there.
Good luck. Have fun.

[Wolfswetpaws]

I remember a friend of mine saying "The Masters put their secrets in to the kata(s)" with regard to Karate and martial-arts in general.

I feel that a lot can be learned at Tier-1, here in WOWs.  It is the foundation for the rest of the game, in my opinion.
Positioning, angling, where to aim, and et-cetera.
I think Yuro does a good job of demonstrating this with his video ....

THE PRECURSOR OF PAIN | ERIE

 
 

[HogHammer]

On 2/23/2024 at 10:23 AM, Ensign Cthulhu said:

I used to watch individual ship reviews and gameplay vids on Youtube, then shifted part of my focus to streamers after Twitch seemed to become more of a "thing".

 

33 minutes ago, thornzero said:

Youtube wasn't as helpful as twitch streams [at least for me]. Twitch offers a different variety of situations in real time. You can typically find someone playing DDs for instance and see their decision making on the spot. But it is valuable watching other classes. Some of the cc's are quite good players.

As someone who embraced Twitch streams about a year ago, I do find them more valuable from a learning perspective.  When I first started playing WoWs, my go-to source of learning material was either the old forum or YouTube videos.  What I like about the many Twitch streamers is that it allows two-way communication and is live - no editing of just one's best session.   If you have a question, you just put it in chat.  I have never run across a single streamer that refuses to help out.

You also quickly realize they, too, are human - they have good games and not-so-good games.  I don't do CVs, but I have watched how they operate in streams.  I've watched their tactics and how they approach different classes, which in turn helps me understand better countermeasures on my part - be it DD, cruiser, or BB.  And again, they are very willing to take your questions.

I enjoy watching John_The_Ruthless Twitch streams.  Probably one of the better, if not one of the best cruiser players in the game.  I watch not to see him rack up 200,000 plus damage games back to back, but I really attempt to watch how he approaches each map and the tactics he uses.  His map awareness, use of land cover, and understanding movements and positioning of his opponents is simply amazing.  Those are things in his or any stream you can pick up through observation -  then practice and apply to your own battles.

[Justin_Simpleton]

23 minutes ago, UnderTheRadarAgain said:

My suggestion if you want to put together a tutorial series for new players - 

Start a new alt account. Record everything. Take specific note of the account access levels and incorporate that into your tutorial videos. Explaining everything as simply as possible. 
Covering the basics right from the start. How to aim, how to kite, how to dodge. T1 is easy. Aiming, kiting is the key skills. T2 you can add in dodging - because T2 DD's turn up there.
Good luck. Have fun.

I've started a new account as you suggested.  What's lacking is some foresight about the choices made.  For instance a new player could advance quickly up one line but not know the consequences of that decision where they cannot afford to play that tier X ship for lack of credits.  There are different strategies for advancing commanders.  

I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time in the lower tiers trying to learn game strategy because the Random line-up is mostly bots and there is no hope for teamwork.  

It might be handy to know which low tier ship plays like a higher tier ship.  I had a terrific time launching torps with Wieland and wondered which higher tier ship plays like that.

[Wolfswetpaws]

Comprehensive Submarine Guide (And Fighting them) in World of Warships

 

 

[Utt_Bugglier]

4 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

Yeah, I see too many players just sailing around pew pew pewing their guns at the enemy, their allies, islands, or sometimes nothing at all without a care as to the game objectives. These are usually the "cannon fodder" who end up at the bottom of every team. They don't even work all that well as cannon fodder either because, not knowing a thing about how to angle to and dodge incoming fire, they are quickly sunk.

These are not necessarily even the worst players:

Two weeks ago, in a T5 battle (rife with bots) I watched our (human) Aviere player torp down a bot DD in the cap in front of me. He then left the cap, did a 180, and speedboosted into the waist of a red bot CA. The bot survived. He did not.

No amount of “information” is going to help that kind of player, because”information” will never reach them. They’re not looking for any information. They’re just looking for their next “wheeeeeee!!!” moment.

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 minutes ago, Utt_Bugglier said:

These are not necessarily even the worst players:

Two weeks ago, in a T5 battle (rife with bots) I watched our (human) Aviere player torp down a bot DD in the cap in front of me. He then left the cap, did a 180, and speedboosted into the waist of a red bot CA. The bot survived. He did not.

No amount of “information” is going to help that kind of player, because”information” will never reach them. They’re not looking for any information. They’re just looking for their next “wheeeeeee!!!” moment.

Or they were distracted by a pet or a child?

[Utt_Bugglier]

2 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Or they were distracted by a pet or a child?

Lots of maneuvering for such distraction. Nope. Too much intent.

[Snargfargle]

16 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Or they were distracted by a pet or a child?

Back when I still had a cat, I was kicked offline more than a few times when it started playing with my computer's cables under the desk. I tried to ban that varmint from the computer room but trying to keep a cat out of somewhere that a cat wants to be is generally going to be unsuccessful. My sister has that cat now and it's living a good life chasing mice and birds in her barn during the day and sleeping in her bed at night.

[Ensign Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, HogHammer said:

What I like about the many Twitch streamers is that it allows two-way communication and is live - no editing of just one's best session.

There is a flipside of this. Being able to narrate over a game you've already played means that you can do a complete tactical analysis with the benefit of hindsight, picking up on things you missed in the heat of the moment or discussing ship builds, particular tactics (e.g. vs aircraft or subs) and the like without being distracted by the immediate necessities of gameplay. For example, Destroyer KuroshioKai used to pause replays at a critical moment in the fight to expand on the unfolding situation at length, if there was something he needed to say that would take more time than the actual event does to unfold.

Yes, it does lead to cherry picking, but it has its place. 

[_KlRlTO_]

In my clan, I have a channel dedicated to videos that help teach the game. Many of the videos are quite old now, but they still hold up. Ichase did a warships for beginners series a long time ago that still holds up well in most regards and form the basis of the videos I direct people to, in addition to a video from Nozoupforyou that teaches playing a DD against CV, a video from Notser that teaches playing a DD against radar, and a video from Yoru that teaches submarine play. I will post the links later when I have more time.

[Aethervox]

I'm surprised no one mentions divisioning for new players. Sure, some divisions are all poor players & they do little (especially 2 player divisions). However, if the players are average or (better yet) good, then, divisioning is a great way for a new player (or any player) to see better results (in general).

[Wolfswetpaws]

3 minutes ago, Aethervox said:

I'm surprised no one mentions divisioning for new players. Sure, some divisions are all poor players & they do little (especially 2 player divisions). However, if the players are average or (better yet) good, then, divisioning is a great way for a new player (or any player) to see better results (in general).

While divisioning is, in theory, a nice idea.  There are considerations.

  Who do I division with? 
Like, really.  How do I find someone worth the effort to division with, for training purposes?

It's fun to division with people.  Yes.
I've had some hilarious games while divisioned with @Sailor_Moon, @Ensign Cthulhu, @Counter_Gambit and @Asym and @SolitudeFreak.
I've had good experiences "merc'ing" with @Gaelic_knight.  I've also had some worthwhile games with @Justin_Simpleton

But, for learning & training purposes, there's more preparation and learning that needs to be done so that a "newbie" can get trained in the basics and the finer-points of gunnery, torpedoing from stealth and from brawling ranges, positioning, just-dodging, turning off AA and sec-bat guns to minimize aerial detection, and etc.
This is where finding a decent person or group of people can help a lot.  Or it can become a total turn-off if the wrong people are being divisioned with.

For me, I'm glad I found @Lord_Zath's Twitch stream.
He brings players in for divisioning play and also does replay reviews & analysis. 
And, in my opinion, he's good at both.  Until he drinks too much "dirty water", at least.  But, then the channel becomes entertaining for other reasons.  🙂 
Bottom line?  
I've learned a lot about playing from viewing and/or participating in divisions during Lord_Zath's Twitch streams.

This forum has a Clan recruiting area.  So, that's a place to visit and post a "recruits wanted" or "clan wanted" topic, too.
Sometimes the effort pans-out.  🙂 

[Asym]

1 hour ago, Aethervox said:

I'm surprised no one mentions divisioning for new players. Sure, some divisions are all poor players & they do little (especially 2 player divisions). However, if the players are average or (better yet) good, then, divisioning is a great way for a new player (or any player) to see better results (in general).

Many clans are very active and offer new players an opportunity to Division with an established clan.  We do so for Operations.  Some players refuse to use Discord and that is a deal breaker. 

And, I have publicly offered on this forum in many conversations the opportunity to join us to learn Operations !  Very, very few do so..........

[MBT808]

6 hours ago, Verblonde said:

For example, you don't really need to learn a huge amount to get the basic differences between HE and AP

And SAP.

The basic stuff is fairly easy to understand yes. The basic surface level stuff is easy for new players to grasp, the knowledge base and behind the scenes stuff is extremely steep. I still say having someone to teach you is probably the only path to success in WoWs. It’s also probably easiest way to find the more important and obscure stuff(like the number of players that don’t know what overmatch is for example is quite significant from my experience).

But regarding ammo, if you dive into the three main ammo types things get very complicated. Cause not only do you need to know the specifics of your ammo, you need to know the enemies as well. Not only that but you need to know armor models in order to understand proper ammo selection for the ships. What can your shells penetrate(in the case of HE with or without IFHE), what’s your actual fire chance after fire reduction calculation, is enemy armor thick enough to arm AP, is your AP fuse going to properly arm inside the target or outside it, etc. Most information on AP alone is not available without things like shiptool.st or WoWs ship builder. Not only that but the fact that the same AP shell in one gun can have different parameters on six different ships is also important.

How your guns interact with enemies and how enemy guns interact with your ship is a significant volume of information to absorb. This is just part of what you need to know in the aspect of threat assessment in the game. This was significantly easier to do during the first and second years of the game when the volume of ships in the game were far less than they are today.

Edited February 26 by MBT808

[Verblonde]

33 minutes ago, MBT808 said:

And SAP.

The basic stuff is fairly easy to understand yes. The basic surface level stuff is easy for new players to grasp, the knowledge base and behind the scenes stuff is extremely steep. I still say having someone to teach you is probably the only path to success in WoWs. It’s also probably easiest way to find the more important and obscure stuff(like the number of players that don’t know what overmatch is for example is quite significant from my experience).

But regarding ammo, if you dive into the three main ammo types things get very complicated. Cause not only do you need to know the specifics of your ammo, you need to know the enemies as well. Not only that but you need to know armor models in order to understand proper ammo selection for the ships. What can your shells penetrate(in the case of HE with or without IFHE), what’s your actual fire chance after fire reduction calculation, is enemy armor thick enough to arm AP, is your AP fuse going to properly arm inside the target or outside it, etc. Most information on AP alone is not available without things like shiptool.st or WoWs ship builder. Not only that but the fact that the same AP shell in one gun can have different parameters on six different ships is also important.

How your guns interact with enemies and how enemy guns interact with your ship is a significant volume of information to absorb. This is just part of what you need to know in the aspect of threat assessment in the game. This was significantly easier to do during the first and second years of the game when the volume of ships in the game were far less than they are today.

What you say is abundantly sensible, if one aims to become an expert in the game. My theory is that for the bulk of players (as of now) it's an enormous journey for them to get there.

This was why I suggested several stages. My initial aim wouldn't be to make everyone an expert, but rather to provide the tools to become slightly less clueless. For example, you probably don't need to completely understand ammo, to make slightly better choices than most; I'm not talking the expert-level decision making you (and others on here) make, but rather something along the lines of the following:

• Someone gives you broadside.
• Fire your guns (if loaded with HE/SAP), with AP selected for the next shot.
• When AP is up, fire at the middle of the ship just at/above the waterline.
• Did it work (if the shells hit the right place)? If not, or if the ship is going to angle before your next reload, load HE/SAP. If it did, do it again, and repeat.

You'd probably want a bit more than that, but even something that basic will improve the results of a typical hopeless player. We've not mentioned anything about ricochet angles, arming times, overpens, or anything like that. That stuff is lesson 2.

Using myself as an example: I'm nowhere near as good as many on here, but I'm probably a lot better than most of the deep red players you find in the game. I've never bothered to learn quite a lot of the more complicated game mechanics (mainly because I don't have the time, and can never remember when it matters anyway), but I've learned a lot of 'better than basic' stuff. I'll almost certainly never be a purple player (I don't count periodic forays into that territory in Ranked), for these reasons, but I'm not usually an utter liability either.

I think it's probably unrealistic to expect every player to get as good as you lot on here (many won't have the time and/or inclination to put the necessary hours in), but it is realistic to expect a bunch of them to suck less. If sucking less is the goal, that's a lot easier to achieve than mastery of the game...

[MBT808]

1 hour ago, Verblonde said:

I think it's probably unrealistic to expect every player to get as good as you lot on here (many won't have the time and/or inclination to put the necessary hours in), but it is realistic to expect a bunch of them to suck less. If sucking less is the goal, that's a lot easier to achieve than mastery of the game...

I think its possible, but like I said in my first post, it requires either help from someone experienced or you got to be committed to learning. The former and the latter I think are both in short supply these days.

The number of players that I think know the game in and out are dwindling rapidly as a direct result of War Gamings mishandling of the game. As a result, there are less experienced players who can teach new players how the game works and maintain a more healthy average skill level. The second issue is players willing to learn the game, I honestly don't believe most people have the time, patience, or attention span these days to bother learning the game(or any reasonably complex game these days for that matter). For every person who commits to learning the game, there's a hundred of the typical hopeless players as you put it.

Credit to @Sailor_Moon for this in a similar conversation, but some players also get the mistaken impression that they already know everything there is to know. They don't see beyond the surface level(guns go dakka-dakka and ship go boom mentality) and thus never get better which is how we get absolute potatoes in tiers VIII-X where a player is expected to have learned the play style of a line by then.

I agree that we shouldn't expect players to achieve mastery of the game, but even the expectation to just try and learn the game and be a good team mate seems like too much for most new players lately(at least in my point of view). Worse still, I'd say many of the bad players in this game are real [imagination required]'s, which makes random battles extremely aggravating(as well as turning off new players who might've otherwise invested in becoming good players).

Edited February 26 by MBT808

[_KlRlTO_]

I am going to post the video links in a new thread so that people can find the links and use them faster.

[Snargfargle]

I don't run many mods but I can recommend this one that shows your ship's angle in relation to your target's angle. This mod would be very good for a new player to use, both for offense and defense.

Edited February 27 by Snargfargle

[meatgrindr]

12 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Comprehensive Submarine Guide (And Fighting them) in World of Warships

 

 

  Darn, I have to say- that presentation is not for me.  But thanks for posting- I am sure most will find it useful.

[Itwastuesday]

Somehow I doubt tiktok_guy_85677 is going to attract enough new players to wows for this effort to be worthwhile. Nor will the next goofy marketing trick. 

[HogHammer]

15 hours ago, MBT808 said:

I agree that we shouldn't expect players to achieve mastery of the game, but even the expectation to just try and learn the game and be a good team mate seems like too much for most new players lately(at least in my point of view).

^^^This I fully believe - and from actual experience^^^

There is an overwhelming amount of information available to new players - be it from WG itself and many, many contributors who have put in their own time and effort on some really worthwhile YouTube videos.  

Learning the basics of the game is rather simple - improving those skills by either knowing where to look or just taking the necessary time and practice is where many fail.

Starting out, my go-to source of information was the old forum's guides, which I found very helpful.  Additionally, I took the time and effort to search for videos on YouTube that I found were very helpful.  Much of that information and links have been included in the reference section of this very forum, with new material being added nearly weekly.

So, the material is there for anyone to use.  It just takes individual effort if one truly desires to become a competent player and not a drag on one's team.

If you find or see any videos or instructional information that would benefit new or existing players, please let us know.  The more eyes we have finding these little gems of information, the better, and they can be grouped by creator, @iChase for example, or by topic/subject.

All this information is currently located in the "Reference" section of the forum - LWM Reviews, Ship Reviews, Guides, and Historical Content.

[iDuckman]

On 2/23/2024 at 3:51 AM, _MIDGARD_TARTARIA_prpr said:

do we have a lot of tutorials on YouTube for newbies to World of Warships?

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:How_It_Works

And of course, if you can read, the wiki has complete rules and a ship-by-ship analysis.

 

On 2/23/2024 at 10:58 AM, Subtle_Octavian said:

WG drove off all of the most motivated fans, so no real accurate guides anymore.

<ahem!> 

Edited February 28 by iDuckman