Utt_Bugglier Posted February 1 Posted February 1 22 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: If a company pays a train driver a bonus for being on time, and docks his pay for being late...and encourages the engineer to break speed maximums to make up time... ...they bear some responsibility for the effects of a derailment, even if the engineer breaks some of the expressly written rules. Your analogy is deeply flawed. Train passengers are captive in the event of a train accident. WoWs players are not. Your analogy would be valid if it the passengers chose to revolt and assault the engineer if he DIDN’T make up the time.\
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted February 1 Posted February 1 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Utt_Bugglier said: Your analogy is deeply flawed. Train passengers are captive in the event of a train accident. WoWs players are not. Your analogy would be valid if it the passengers chose to revolt and assault the engineer if he DIDN’T make up the time.\ The analogy isn't perfect. The point is that senior leadership will usually cast about for a reason to blame lower level staff for things that were done because senior leadership encouraged that behavior. For example, take this railway accident: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1882_Spuyten_Duyvil_train_wreck The brakeman and engineer were the only people prosecuted...despite the fact that railroad leadership had removed flagmen from the dangerous area assuming that the brakeman could double as a flagman in the event of an incident (cost cutting)...and hiring illiterate brakemen who may not have been able to read the emergency procedures (cost cutting)...and making the engineer the initiator of having the brakeman become the flagman (leadership not understanding emergency procedures)... ...and the railway and government made no effort to investigate why the emergency brake was activated....because it was likely done by a state legislator who was drunk...because of the railway utilizing free tickets and booze to lobby those legislators. WG has often engaged in this 'dont take responsibility' behavior...sometimes with employees, but even so far as with balancing. The whole concept of WG interactions with their business is riddled with examples of WG leadership only taking responsibility for the good parts of the game...and blaming ANYONE else for anything that goes bad. Despite the fact the World of Warships is entirely within their control. Edited February 1 by Daniel_Allan_Clark 1
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted February 1 Posted February 1 3 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said: All those things were addressed with the rework. It was the only way to rebalance people like Farazelleth and Femennenly. Except it didn't...we still have gods of CVs...
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted February 1 Posted February 1 2 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said: To do what? Go aboard and break up the crew's hidden vodka stash? 😜 Someone, it might have been me, suggested that the Wednesday evening NA WG stream take a look at the Pobeda and from the way Ahskance reacted you'd think he'd rather do anything else, yet the RU carriers are supposed to be what everyone screams "OP!" about the most. But I'll have to try something, because bad language certainly isn't working! Do you need help with Pobeda?
Admiral_Karasu Posted February 1 Posted February 1 18 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said: The analogy isn't perfect. The point is that senior leadership will usually cast about for a reason to blame lower level staff for things that were done because senior leadership encouraged that behavior. For example, take this railway accident: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1882_Spuyten_Duyvil_train_wreck The brakeman and engineer were the only people prosecuted...despite the fact that railroad leadership had removed flagmen from the dangerous area assuming that the brakeman could double as a flagman in the event of an incident (cost cutting)...and hiring illiterate brakemen who may not have been able to read the emergency procedures (cost cutting)...and making the engineer the initiator of having the brakeman become the flagman (leadership not understanding emergency procedures)... ...and the railway and government made no effort to investigate why the emergency brake was activated....because it was likely done by a state legislator who was drunk...because of the railway utilizing free tickets and booze to lobby those legislators. WG has often engaged in this 'dont take responsibility' behavior...sometimes with employees, but even so far as with balancing. The whole concept of WG interactions with their business is riddled with examples of WG leadership only taking responsibility for the good parts of the game...and blaming ANYONE else for anything that goes bad. Despite the fact the World of Warships is entirely within their control. Wiktionary got you covered. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shit_rolls_downhill
ArIskandir Posted February 1 Posted February 1 (edited) 5 hours ago, CaliburxZero said: Sure. Subs are always defended by the same group of people,a group that only exists on forums like these. Hi hope you don't take my criticism as personal offense, everyone is free to voice his/her opinion and I'm glad to have different voices and perspectives here on this Forum. Confronting different perspectives and having healthy discusions is fundamental to progress. Having said that... 5 hours ago, CaliburxZero said: Just like how RTS carriers were liked and not hated, right? You seem to imply the current CVs in contrast are well liked and not hated, which of course we know is not true... they are still disliked and hated by a significant number of players. Is the new design an improvement over the RTS?... in many aspects, yes sure, but that wasn't the mainstream opinion back in the day... only time (as in getting used to) and the addition of a new "bad guy" (Subs) has softened the outlook on CVs. The point I'm trying to make is negative opinions are not all rooted on objective assesments but on "feelings"... "feelings" may (and do) change over time, independently of any objective balance change. 7 hours ago, CaliburxZero said: Outside of the players who likes to use them as tools to make the game awful (arguably even easier than CVs, and that's REALLY saying something) I don't think anybody truly enjoys them being here. Here you are equating playing Subs with "evil"... The same old travesty of equating playing CVs to "evil" and an echo of the RL "if you don't believe what I believe, you are evil". This is BS of the first degree... people can enjoy playing Subs for what they are, without any intention of "making the game awful" or trolling other people. I've not played the game for many months now, but if there's still angst because "too many Subs", then it is obvious there's a lot of players playing Subs... If they play Subs must be because they enjoy playing Subs, assuming otherwise is disingenuos. BTW, I enjoyed Subs... playing against them even more than playing them. 5 hours ago, CaliburxZero said: You'll defend no matter what, Actually I criticized the most obnoxious aspect of Subs even before they were common knowledge as I was active on every test interation of Subs. They are not perfect, but I doesn't mean I can't enjoy them or enjoy sinking them. Yes, the game overall would benefit from some changes to Submarine mechanics but that's just but one spec of the changes the game would need to be revitalized. Blaming the decline of the game on Subs is again disingenuous. 5 hours ago, CaliburxZero said: Hated = Unbalanced. Not really. Hated=Asymmetric interactions. Balance has very little to do with the hate CVs and Subs get. They can release the most broken Secondary focused BB and you'll see how it becomes loved by the masses... 5 hours ago, CaliburxZero said: Players who understand and can perform in a game always call out the OP or unfair stuff. This game is no different from any other game community in this regard. But such a inconvenient fact is ignored in this community... I wonder why. Maybe because you are assuming this game is no different from any other game while in many aspects it is very different from the standard PvP shooter. You are evaluating the game under the same standard principles of any other relatively symmetrical PvP game, where "balanced" interactions are the rule. This game is not symmetrical, and is not "balanced" in the traditional sense... not every unit has an equivalent "power" value and interactions are often designed to be one-sided asymmetries. You are saying this game is a friggin' ugly unicorn while in fact it's an effing rhyno... both have a horn and four legs but they are not the same thing. Edited February 1 by ArIskandir 3 1 2
Ensign Cthulhu Posted February 1 Posted February 1 4 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said: You really need to practice your cursing. Perhaps spend some time watching Flamu? My grandfather taught me some really juicy Italian blasphemies. Then there's the Italian newscaster Germano Mosconi, most of whose utterances should never be typed into any Italian Twitch stream if you want to keep your account. I'm well supplied for swears, but thanks for asking. 😈 1 2
CaliburxZero Posted February 1 Posted February 1 4 hours ago, ArIskandir said: You seem to imply the current CVs in contrast are well liked and not hated, which of course we know is not true... they are still disliked and hated by a significant number of players. Is the new design an improvement over the RTS?... in many aspects, yes sure, but that wasn't the mainstream opinion back in the day... only time (as in getting used to) and the addition of a new "bad guy" (Subs) has softened the outlook on CVs. That is not my position at all with current CVs. Don't play that strawman game with me. I have made my position abundantly clear for years on both RTS and current CVs on the old forums, conversations that you were directly involved in. Must I state my opinion here too? I won't even bother going into the other comments outside of your usage of "asymmetric". I can talk about many different games I have played over quite a few years, "asymmetric" shouldn't mean "I automatically get to play by my rules, and you are merely the victim of it". Its the same few faces on these forums defending X or Y for good reason... Do you understand why nobody engages anymore that's new or very experienced? Because they know talking with this camp is a waste of time. Here's the process: Insert unpopular, biased opinion about failed game mechanic/design -> Get shut down by talented and/or experienced players who have taken the time to learn the game at a high level -> Continue to be indignant about wrong opinion -> Irritate a better player to drive them to the point of getting hostile -> Report them like crazy to silence them when feeling upset the opinion is a bad take and they know it, but pride. -> People who do know better slowly go away. And you know what? That's why forums like these barely have views or posts, ESPECIALLY compared to CBT days or even the first **five** years of the game. And that's why its the same echo chamber. I get tired of this dance. You know what matters at the end of the day? Profit for this company. And changes are happening to subs and CVs for a reason. Why? Because it hurts profitability to a point where WG can't run from it anymore... and this same tired behavior is why the game is in the decline it is today in numbers. Look at this game's brother, World of Tanks... They are just NOW starting to place in T9 premiums that are considered competitive with tech tree equivalents. Look at how well its population has stayed. The conclusions as to why and what this game does wrong is obvious, and frankly nobody here would dare listen anyway. Good luck to not you specifically, but 90% of those here. It must get boring pretending to be right and having the cognitive dissonance slam you in the face repeatedly when that reality comes to shatter as the asymmetric classes continue to plague average joe's experience and they bleed more money. That's enough time-wasting from me on these subject matters, I got ships (and money) to grind. PS: This echo chamber matters even less now, there's a reason why WG shut down the original forums, lol. Because this feedback? It doesn't matter at all to them. 1 1
GandalfTehGray Posted February 2 Posted February 2 I've never understood breaking your own stuff, might be because if I did that growing up it wasn't being replaced as technology was usually a birthday/Christmas only kind of thing outside of purchasing myself. 2
Admiral_Karasu Posted February 2 Posted February 2 10 hours ago, CaliburxZero said: That is not my position at all with current CVs. Don't play that strawman game with me. I have made my position abundantly clear for years on both RTS and current CVs on the old forums, conversations that you were directly involved in. Must I state my opinion here too? I won't even bother going into the other comments outside of your usage of "asymmetric". I can talk about many different games I have played over quite a few years, "asymmetric" shouldn't mean "I automatically get to play by my rules, and you are merely the victim of it". Its the same few faces on these forums defending X or Y for good reason... Do you understand why nobody engages anymore that's new or very experienced? Because they know talking with this camp is a waste of time. Here's the process: Insert unpopular, biased opinion about failed game mechanic/design -> Get shut down by talented and/or experienced players who have taken the time to learn the game at a high level -> Continue to be indignant about wrong opinion -> Irritate a better player to drive them to the point of getting hostile -> Report them like crazy to silence them when feeling upset the opinion is a bad take and they know it, but pride. -> People who do know better slowly go away. And you know what? That's why forums like these barely have views or posts, ESPECIALLY compared to CBT days or even the first **five** years of the game. And that's why its the same echo chamber. I get tired of this dance. You know what matters at the end of the day? Profit for this company. And changes are happening to subs and CVs for a reason. Why? Because it hurts profitability to a point where WG can't run from it anymore... and this same tired behavior is why the game is in the decline it is today in numbers. Look at this game's brother, World of Tanks... They are just NOW starting to place in T9 premiums that are considered competitive with tech tree equivalents. Look at how well its population has stayed. The conclusions as to why and what this game does wrong is obvious, and frankly nobody here would dare listen anyway. Good luck to not you specifically, but 90% of those here. It must get boring pretending to be right and having the cognitive dissonance slam you in the face repeatedly when that reality comes to shatter as the asymmetric classes continue to plague average joe's experience and they bleed more money. That's enough time-wasting from me on these subject matters, I got ships (and money) to grind. PS: This echo chamber matters even less now, there's a reason why WG shut down the original forums, lol. Because this feedback? It doesn't matter at all to them. I'm open to hearing to what do you mean by 'why and what this game does wrong is obvious' and I would personally dare to listen.
Ensign Cthulhu Posted February 2 Posted February 2 20 hours ago, CaliburxZero said: as the asymmetric classes continue to plague average joe's experience You're assuming that average joe isn't playing the 'asymmetric classes'. 20 hours ago, CaliburxZero said: It must get boring pretending to be right and having the cognitive dissonance slam you in the face repeatedly I would humbly suggest looking in the mirror as you say those words, because right now you're coming across as being utterly convinced of your own infallibility and the utter wrongness of anything that's said to you which contradicts your opinions. My opinion on the matter is clear, which is that you (and everyone else who complains bitterly about CVs and subs being in the game) have a vested interest in having CVs and subs gutted so that you can run rampant. At least have the decency to admit that this is what would happen if they were removed.
Frostbow Posted February 3 Posted February 3 19 hours ago, Ensign Cthulhu said: My opinion on the matter is clear, which is that you (and everyone else who complains bitterly about CVs and subs being in the game) have a vested interest in having CVs and subs gutted so that you can run rampant. Well it is clear as day, that you defend Wargaming at each and every turn. Don't deny it; back in the days of the official forum, you repeatedly claimed that CVs are there so that unicums on DDs can be stopped—which was pure copium on your part. The same DDs easily ripped apart your opinion when Kidd/Akizuki/Kidd divisions presented a real counter play to the lopsided advantages a CV have in its favor. And now we have submarines. Show us how you fight and survive against high tier submarines in solo Random Battles or your accusation that players have a vested interest is irreparably flawed, and deserves to be stricken out. 1
Daniel_Allan_Clark Posted February 3 Posted February 3 10 minutes ago, Frostbow said: Well it is clear as day, that you defend Wargaming at each and every turn. Don't deny it; back in the days of the official forum, you repeatedly claimed that CVs are there so that unicums on DDs can be stopped—which was pure copium on your part. The same DDs easily ripped apart your opinion when Kidd/Akizuki/Kidd divisions presented a real counter play to the lopsided advantages a CV have in its favor. And now we have submarines. Show us how you fight and survive against high tier submarines in solo Random Battles or your accusation that players have a vested interest is irreparably flawed, and deserves to be stricken out. As a CV main...I wish I saw more AKK divisions and 899 divisions. Actually makes the CV gameplay more challenging. Sadly, despite the obvious advantages these groupings have, you almost never see them in game. WG designed the concealment system in game to be quite wonky...and the core aspect always gave planes the ability to be the alpha spotters. Folks who claim it is the DDs job to be the primary spotter...or to get caps, betray a fundamental ignorance of how the game ought to be played...and are demanding that their ignorance be rewarded rather than learn to play the game as it is. The far better argument to be made is that World of Warships, as designed currently, isn't fun...
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